Batman vs. Punisher hth dirty.

[MTL76]

I dont see Punisher as B level, just a more grounded fighter, physically and metaphorically.
He's not a swing between sky scrapers character. He's not a snatch the pebble from my hand fighter.
Different training, different styles.

None of this is what is keeping the Punisher off of the A-list. What keeps him off is that more often than not, he will lose in a H2H fight against an A-lister. He'll give them a good fight but he'll lose. Judge Dredd doesn't go in for esoteric martial arts or swinging between skyscrapers or snatching pebbles but he is still A-list based on his track record.

[g-train]

Basically its like this; drop DD in a warehouse that's one big room, with no weapons and hundred ninjas he's got a reasonable chance to come out of it.

Drop Cap in a warehouse that's one big room, with a hundred shield agents and no weapons and he's got a reasonable chance to come out of it.

Drop Punisher in a warehouse that's one big room, with no weapons with a hundred goons and.....?

Its not just how well he does against the big dogs, its how well he does against every body else and in different scenarios.

Its like when he fought Elektra and she went over, took the guns out of his hands and went back to where she was standing before he could even react to it.

Part of the problem is; that while Punisher's stock has dropped a little bit, every body else's has continued going up.

Or to put it another way; Punisher's high's are DD/Cap/Etc.....lows. 

[Mightily Oats]

Elektra doing that to him comes across as either a very high showing for Elektra or a shit showing for Frank

In my mind, him and Bullseye are pretty much the king of the B-list

[nu-safado]

Basically its like this; drop DD in a warehouse that's one big room, with no weapons and hundred ninjas he's got a reasonable chance to come out of it.

Drop Cap in a warehouse that's one big room, with a hundred shield agents and no weapons and he's got a reasonable chance to come out of it.

Drop Punisher in a warehouse that's one big room, with no weapons with a hundred goons and.....?

Its not just how well he does against the big dogs, its how well he does against every body else and in different scenarios.

Its like when he fought Elektra and she went over, took the guns out of his hands and went back to where she was standing before he could even react to it.

Part of the problem is; that while Punisher's stock has dropped a little bit, every body else's has continued going up.

Or to put it another way; Punisher's high's are DD/Cap/Etc.....lows. 

Elektra doing that to him comes across as either a very high showing for Elektra or a shit showing for Frank

In my mind, him and Bullseye are pretty much the king of the B-list

These two posts say a lot. I think a better way of phrasing it would be to say that no way is Frank on the level of the guys who spen their whole lives training in martial arts and have enhanced stats. he is however a solid  step above anyone else who is a street level guy and not a super ninja/soldier/lightly superpowered guy.

He's very skilled and his overall skill set is quite good - he's what I imagine an insaley above the rest of the group Navy Seal would be if he lost his mind and decided to become a murdering vigilante and started directing all of his training towards that and not soldiering

Frank is way more skilled than he gets credit for - but he's not quite on the elite list. He's not quite as bad as some people seem to make him out to be though

[MTL76]

Its like when he fought Elektra and she went over, took the guns out of his hands and went back to where she was standing before he could even react to it.

That was the very definition of an outlier for both of them. The writer had a clear goal in mind writing that story and was playing fast and loose with power levels.

[g-train]

Its like when he fought Elektra and she went over, took the guns out of his hands and went back to where she was standing before he could even react to it.

That was the very definition of an outlier for both of them. The writer had a clear goal in mind writing that story and was playing fast and loose with power levels.

Not really; its just Elektra on a good day versus Punisher on his average day......I mean the big dogs can do straight out bullet time and shit.

Move so fast that even people who are practically teleporting from the perspective of normal people are still quite a bit slower than them.

I'm not saying they are always portrayed at these levels but they do exist.

Now Punishers not bad himself; his draw speed is literally insane, his accuracy while not bullseye level is fantastic.

He's agile, acrobatic and skilled, way more stealth skills than a lot of people are even aware of.

It would be like if you took the general action heroes of most movies and then rolled them all into one.

With equipment and tech. on his side Punisher can make a fight of it......but if he's going up against any A-Lister kind of guy in pure HTH; Daredevil on up he's not just going up against people who are more skilled them him but often have notably better stats on top of that.

[AP]

I usually get annoyed when I see supposedly non-powered people move too fast for anyone to see.  Moving too fast for someone to react to is fine.  I get that.  The Elektra scene isn't bullet time.  It is moving damn near the speed of light if you can't even so much as see a blur.

[Liam Gallaghers Unibrow]

Dont feel like copy pasting or quoting. Just want to say that Dredd wouldnt fare any better than Frank against DD or Batman, IMO.

In my opinion, you're wrong. Dredd has in fact already fared better vs Batman than Punisher has if we accept their respective crossovers as useful evidence. Punisher looked completely, hopeless out of his league vs Batman in h2h terms, whilst Dredd stalemated Bats in pure h2h for 45 minutes straight. At the risk of descending into another debate about the validity of crossovers, I think such direct evidence should not be ignored.

Furthermore, it fits with how they are often portrayed in their own universes. I can't even begin to imagine Dredd being portrayed as out of his league vs Daredevil like Punny was under Ennis, for example. Whilst Frank has better showings than that, I don't think he has any pure h2h showings that match Dredd's best (although Dredd's best may be harder to gain recognition for from non-2000AD readers), and Dredd doesn't have any of the low h2h showings that Punny does.


Cheers.

[Liam Gallaghers Unibrow]

Pretty sure Dredd's enhanced, afterall.

I don't think he's enhanced. The cloning process is more like extremely selective breeding to produce a champion thoroughbred horse or something. There was a story that involved the cloning scientists attempting to create super-human Judges from Dredd's genetic material, but the resulting clone suffered from extreme neural decay and had to be killed (obviously implying that Dredd didn't undergo the same process).

Dredd's from exceptionally prime stock but that's about it I think. He has been described as peak human once or twice before, but I think he is more peak of human perfection through good genes and 24/7 training ala Batman than he is experimental peak human like Captain America.

His only overt physical enhancement is bionic eyes with enhanced, telescopic sight and perfect night vision plus a 50% reduced blinking frequency.


Cheers.

[nu-safado]

So let's call frank an a- while the others a+


He's too good to be a b lister and he isn't good enough to beat the guys who fight metahumans(or are metahuman) in h t hits almost as if he sees h t h as a secondary skill to the real job of killing bad guys using weapons and planning. Maybe if he dedicated all his time to hath and had resources he could hang?

He's undersold

I

[Dutchman]

yeah that's what we need
more fan based definitions diversity, next we'll have A+ and A++ martial artists as well cool

[MTL76]

Being on the B-list isn't an insult. It still means someone is a phenomenal H2H fighter. They just aren't among the best in the world.

[Mightily Oats]

Being on the B-list isn't an insult. It still means someone is a phenomenal H2H fighter. They just aren't among the best in the world.

bingo.

And like I said, Punisher is pretty much king of the B's.

If you beat him in hand to hand, I'd consider it pretty much an automatic pass into the A-list

[AP]

Being on the B-list isn't an insult. It still means someone is a phenomenal H2H fighter. They just aren't among the best in the world.

bingo.

And like I said, Punisher is pretty much king of the B's.

If you beat him in hand to hand, I'd consider it pretty much an automatic pass into the A-list

Yep.  This is part of why I consider him sort of like the Thing of streetlevelers.  If you can overpower Thing, you're class 100.  If you can outfight Punisher, you're A-list.

[bender]

you guys don't think fighting hip deep in mud doesn't help frank in this situation? I can see giving it to bats, and I agree on raw skill bats is way ahead, but this isn't a situation that favors MA type skill.