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Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?

Upper_Krust

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2015, 06:34:51 PM »
He wasn't weakened in the beginning.

He did seem rocked after he crashed through some buildings earlier in the fight, but he recovered quickly.

Before the speedblitz that put him down, Firelord was caught in the explosion of a gas station.  When the dust cleared, Firelord was on the ground, unmoving.  That turned out to be a trick to lure Spidey into the open.  He wasn't really hurt.

Exploding Gas Stations have been known to fell even the toughest heroes. ;)

Kang Council

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2015, 06:51:26 PM »
Of course.  Why wouldn't it be?

I figured, especially based on how we all are over at ICT, a lot of those crazy non-standard feats were retconned.

Firelord was weakened, so it wasn't PIS.

When in the story was he weakened?
  Can't remember somebody was telling me the issue, was having a prob with a planetoid etc, but he was weakened even before coming to earth think he came there for a rest.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2015, 02:23:13 PM »
Can't remember somebody was telling me the issue, was having a prob with a planetoid etc, but he was weakened even before coming to earth think he came there for a rest.

Here's the scene in question. Not what I'd call evidence of a character being in a "weakened condition" per se.


Kang Council

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2015, 02:31:24 PM »
Can't remember somebody was telling me the issue, was having a prob with a planetoid etc, but he was weakened even before coming to earth think he came there for a rest.

Here's the scene in question. Not what I'd call evidence of a character being in a "weakened condition" per se.



Yea see what you mean....gotta admit when 2 super heroes fight each other they always tend to have some thing were you can say this guy wasn't at 100%.  So I suspect it was a rubbish way of showing it.  Maybe were missing something.

EDIT:  I do think destroying something the size of a small planet would generally weaken a high herald character though, they tend to max out at planet wide feats.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 02:35:03 PM by Kang Council »

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2015, 02:58:44 PM »
Always thought the "small planet" line was hyperbole. It doesn't even look the size of a house, the way it's drawn. And I don't get the impression the feat was a major exertion for Firelord either.

XerxesTWD

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2015, 03:05:01 PM »
It was obviously far away.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2015, 03:57:34 PM »
In the panel where we get the clearest view of it, it appears to be closer to the reader than Firelord is. We see Firelord's front, not his back, as he's preparing to blast it.


Rufio

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2015, 04:16:24 PM »
I always assumed the artist screwed up the perspective and didn't have time to fix it before it got published.

Kang Council

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2015, 06:06:09 PM »
Always thought the "small planet" line was hyperbole. It doesn't even look the size of a house, the way it's drawn. And I don't get the impression the feat was a major exertion for Firelord either.

Nah in hindsight Firelord was weakened and I think I'm being too generous.  First of all writers always find a way when two super heroes fight to have circumstances that indicate that both or one of them are weakened.  If that thing was the size of a small planet....that would explain it.  Writers aren't always going to spell it out for you.

Also Firelord's ego is in effect.  He doesn't want to admit the reason why he doesn't want to chase the meteroites is because he's tired and what clinches it for me it what he says about earth.  Firelord has been all over the universe and all of a sudden earth has the best delights in the whole cosmos????  Lies, really he wants to go to earth because he's tired but won't admit it.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2015, 09:04:20 PM »
We really can't be sure how large the writer intended the meteor to be. Hyperbole is quite common in comics, so it's strange to see that explanation being so casually brushed aside as if it isn't a realistic possibility. And even if that thing was the size of a mountain or bigger (which requires it to be many times larger than it was drawn), Firelord doesn't act like a character who was going all-out, or anything close to it.

Rufio

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2015, 12:19:04 AM »
It was written by Tom Defalco and he was very clear in the issue that Spider-Man got a lucky win and Firelord would typically be a tough fight for the Avengers.

The same Tom Defalco wrote the Silver Surfer busting a "planet" that Korvac created around him, Hyperion pushing Wonder Man through a small planet's core, and Thor containing a bomb that would've destroyed 1/5 of the universe. Except for Thor, none of the above struggled with these feats. I think the more likely explanation is that Defalco likes to give top tiers their space cheese.

The alternate explanation is that Firelord feared that colliding with a small asteroid would kill him. I don't think that fits with Defalco's body of work--he even had Iron Man crushing a mountain that Terrax hoisted.

AP

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2015, 03:10:50 AM »
Also in regards to the art, it would be hard to show a planetoid-sized meteor flying toward a normal sized guy.

Upper_Krust

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2015, 01:58:32 PM »
As regards Spidey vs. Firelord. While I initially thought the idea of it was nonsensical. Now that I have discovered Firelord was only in the 50-ton bracket (as opposed to a peer of Surfer himself) I'm actually okay with it.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2015, 02:19:57 PM »
It was written by Tom Defalco and he was very clear in the issue that Spider-Man got a lucky win and Firelord would typically be a tough fight for the Avengers.

The same Tom Defalco wrote the Silver Surfer busting a "planet" that Korvac created around him, Hyperion pushing Wonder Man through a small planet's core, and Thor containing a bomb that would've destroyed 1/5 of the universe. Except for Thor, none of the above struggled with these feats. I think the more likely explanation is that Defalco likes to give top tiers their space cheese.

In this particular case, I think he was deliberately showcasing Firelord's power to make it clear why Spider-Man beating him was a big deal. We take it for granted that everyone on forums like this knows who Firelord is, but back in the mid '80s, I'm sure there were alot of Spidey readers who knew little or nothing about the character before he appeared in that title (it was the first Firelord appearance I personally read). So it makes sense that DeFalco would want to establish what he was capable of early on.

The alternate explanation is that Firelord feared that colliding with a small asteroid would kill him. I don't think that fits with Defalco's body of work--he even had Iron Man crushing a mountain that Terrax hoisted.

But Iron Man flew into it, rather than it flying into him (meaning he had some control over the strength of the impact). And it still pretty much totalled his armour. Also, Firelord was stunned by inadvertently flying through an abandoned tenement, and ultimately KOed by a ten tonner, so it's not like his durability was obviously insanely high in this story.

One of the things I most strongly associate with DeFalco is his apparent love and respect for the Stan Lee era of Marvel Comics, and the extent to which that is reflected in his writing style. With that in mind, he'd almost certainly read the old Silver Surfer issue in which Spider-Man appeared. And in that issue, a couple of room-sized meteors appeared to present a very real danger to the Surfer. Even a fragment of one of them flying at him after he destroyed them was enough to knock him out cold. I'd be surprised if this story wasn't an influence on DeFalco's to some extent, considering the obvious parallels.







Also in regards to the art, it would be hard to show a planetoid-sized meteor flying toward a normal sized guy.

I agree, but Frenz could've made it look alot bigger than it did by a simple shift in perspective, putting Firelord in the foreground, with the meteor travelling toward the reader, rather than the other way around.

In any case, I allow some margin for error with these things. I could buy that this object was perhaps as large as a mountain. But I can't comfortably buy that it was anywhere near as big as the Earth or the Moon, say, because that requires too far a deviation from what actually appeared on the page.

It's not like it needs to be as large as the Earth or the Moon for the feat to be impressive and meaningful, regardless. In Spider-Man, we're talking about a character who was used to going up against the likes of Doctor Octopus and Hobgoblin. Compared to that, Firelord looks like a monster even if the rock he blew up was only the size of a house.





As regards Spidey vs. Firelord. While I initially thought the idea of it was nonsensical. Now that I have discovered Firelord was only in the 50-ton bracket (as opposed to a peer of Surfer himself) I'm actually okay with it.

That was his official ranking at the time, in a bio published just a couple of years before the story. One could debate whether it's an accurate ranking, but regardless, it's very possible that it was an influence on how the writer chose to portray the match-up.

In the Avengers issue which followed up on this story, the Black Knight was shown thinking to himself that it was incredible that Spider-Man could beat Firelord even if he was only half as powerful as the Surfer. Perhaps that shouldn't be taken literally, but it seemed to me like the writer (Roger Stern, in this case) was trying to allow for the possibility that Firelord and the Surfer were not truly on the same level.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 04:13:46 PM by The Shuruku Demon »

Upper_Krust

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Re: Is Spider-Man beating Firelord canon?
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2015, 12:44:30 PM »
As regards Spidey vs. Firelord. While I initially thought the idea of it was nonsensical. Now that I have discovered Firelord was only in the 50-ton bracket (as opposed to a peer of Surfer himself) I'm actually okay with it.

That was his official ranking at the time, in a bio published just a couple of years before the story. One could debate whether it's an accurate ranking, but regardless, it's very possible that it was an influence on how the writer chose to portray the match-up.

In the Avengers issue which followed up on this story, the Black Knight was shown thinking to himself that it was incredible that Spider-Man could beat Firelord even if he was only half as powerful as the Surfer. Perhaps that shouldn't be taken literally, but it seemed to me like the writer (Roger Stern, in this case) was trying to allow for the possibility that Firelord and the Surfer were not truly on the same level.

I always thought the heralds were all in the same 'ball-park' with Surfer and Morg maybe a shade ahead, but the 50-ton Firelord thing was new to me.

Spidey < Luke Cage < Firelord

So to me its only a two tier difference.

I agree about the literal context of the 'half as powerful as Surfer'. That seems to be what's happened. Then they have taken the flawed Marvel strength charts and just halved Surfer's tonnage.

Given that Surfer's power is easily Multi-Megaton range, half of that would still be in the megaton range. Of course that is a discussion for another time on the merits of feat scale vs. fight scale.