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Daredevil 3 Episodes 10-13

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Re: Daredevil 3 Episodes 10-13
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2018, 08:16:56 PM »
Eh, I think you're oversimplifying the way the show handled the issue a bit, Kallor.

It's not like the writers stuck to shallow Silver Age moralizing without exploring the pros and cons. This season (and the previous ones) pretty thoroughly explored the ethics and consequences of killing someone like the Kingpin from every angle, including religious, psychological, and even practical grounds. They spent entire episodes fairly conceding that there were plenty of justifications to murder Fisk in cold blood, while also exploring intelligent arguments as to why that wouldn't necessarily solve their problems at all (especially once Vanessa was back in the picture).

In the end, I think they did a surprisingly good job establishing good enough reasons and motives for Matt keeping Fisk alive. Reasonably, Kingpin will never be able to pull off anything on this scale ever again now that the scandal has burst open--Matt was willing to kill Fisk when achieving the latter looked impossible, but Ray's suicidal silver bullet changed all of that. There's also the pettiness of Matt wanting to deny Fisk the death he craved.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 08:18:29 PM by Visitor-Q »

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Re: Daredevil 3 Episodes 10-13
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2018, 08:46:00 PM »
Overall, I've gotta agree with the people who say this was the best season of any Marvel tv show, and it's probably one of my new favorite superhero live action stories, tv or film.

I had quibbles, especially with the Born Again references that weren't anywhere near as powerful in the context that they were used ("There is no corpse" was limp as hell compared to its cathartic counterpart in the comics, which came right after Kingpin thought he had mentally and physically destroyed Matt, the climax of his greatest triumph after months of effort--in the show, the line is just sputtered after an assassination attempt).

That said, the show was actually at its best when it did its own thing. As much as I'm surprised to admit it, TV Bullseye exceeded my expectations and was actually a more compelling character than the comic version, while still being a ruthless killer. Karen and Maggie were also better developed and more complex than they were in print, and in Karen's case they found a better way to integrate her into the plot and conflicts in a way that made sense for the character. New characters like Ray justified their presence in the story (his entire arc was heartbreaking).

D'Onofrio finally fully and embodied everything I love about Classic Kingpin (his first season performance was amazing, but the character was still developing into the monster he'd later become). The supporting cast was written more three dimensionally than even the first season, and in some cases more intelligently. Hell, even minor side characters and love interests were written as human beings with their own motives whose actions actually affected the plot.

The action scenes genuinely might be the best ever done on television--not just because of their emotional context (that final melee between Fisk, Matt, and Dex? Jeeeeeesus), but on a technical level. The prison riot, which was genuinely one shot with no cheating, was a miracle for a tv show.

Bravo, Daredevil cast and crew.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 08:50:08 PM by Visitor-Q »

Kallor

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Re: Daredevil 3 Episodes 10-13
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2018, 12:13:48 AM »
Eh, I think you're oversimplifying the way the show handled the issue a bit, Kallor.

It's not like the writers stuck to shallow Silver Age moralizing without exploring the pros and cons. This season (and the previous ones) pretty thoroughly explored the ethics and consequences of killing someone like the Kingpin from every angle, including religious, psychological, and even practical grounds.

I really can't agree with the "thoroughly" part at all.  They paid lip service to it, but that's not the same thing.  Saying things like Matt doesn't kill because he's catholic and believes in second chances is not a good faith examination of how to deal with someone like Fisk.

I don't want to drag the show, honest, it's obvious we all liked it a lot, but this particular aspect with DD's malleable morality and willingness to facilitate, instigate, and/or allow deadly acts except when it comes to the person ultimately responsible for all the evil is shallow and stupid.  Not the show as a whole, this bit of it.

He's not moral for refusing to kill (and even going out of his way to save) Kingpin, a man responsible for endless deaths including children and with a proven penchant for escaping all legal consequences.  In all likelihood he's signed Karen or Foggy's death warrant along with a lot of other innocent people.  I'd have a lot less of a problem if the show was a lighter adaptation of the comic, but it's not.

Uhtceare

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Re: Daredevil 3 Episodes 10-13
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2018, 12:26:15 AM »
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 12:31:34 AM by Uhtceare »

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Re: Daredevil 3 Episodes 10-13
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2018, 03:07:36 AM »
I really can't agree with the "thoroughly" part at all.  They paid lip service to it, but that's not the same thing.  Saying things like Matt doesn't kill because he's catholic and believes in second chances is not a good faith examination of how to deal with someone like Fisk.

Sure, but the show wasn't that shallow. You're only picking one of the many arguments used.
Even if we limit the discussion to psychological reasons why he shouldn't have murdered Fisk, the show's spent 3 seasons establishing the deeper fact that Matt is damaged goods, and those same religious/legal convictions are the only things that have kept him from unravelling into someone like Frank Castle. That's why Bullseye was a perfect foil for Matt--he suffered from a more extreme version of Daredevil's own struggles, and was also someone who needed social structures and self-imposed order to chain his worst impulses.

(When Matt describes Dex's first kill and how easier it must've gotten after that, he's alluding to what would happen to him.)

However, the writers also explored the practical reasons why killing Fisk wasn't necessarily the best idea compared to the alternatives.

Foggy pointed out that the Kingpin's organization and corruption wouldn't just disappear if they murdered him like Matt wanted to right before the church incident. Felix Manning would still exist, as well as whatever contingencies he may've been ordered to carry out. Vanessa would still exist. Dex would still exist. The corrupted agents would still exist, as well as all of the mob bosses who could use what they saw against them as leverage in Fisk's place. That's why even in the real world, assassinations of mob bosses/dictators/etc. don't often achieve the desired results except in less common situations where their organization was already crippled.

Foggy's "way" was much more difficult, but it also had the potential to achieve much better results. Even then, Matt was still going to kill Fisk when it looked like achieving those goals via the justice system was impossible, but Ray's sacrifice completely changed the odds. After that, they were in a position to completely dismantle everything Fisk had built, and there's no way in hell any local, state, or federal government would ever risk dealing with him again. Even from a real world perspective with people just like Fisk, that kind victory can be preferable and even more intelligent than simply murdering them.

Then there are the other reasons, some of them pettier and darker, but still true to where Matt's head was at during that moment. Kingpin wanted to die in that final scene for the same reasons Ray did--because it would protect his wife. Matt wanted to deny Fisk's wishes, but he also realized that Kingpin was now just as vulnerable to having his love for someone else exploited as he, Foggy, and Karen were.

All in all, I think the show went way beyond "Matt won't kill Fisk becsuse he's Catholic".

Kallor

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Re: Daredevil 3 Episodes 10-13
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2018, 03:59:35 AM »
You're only picking one of the many arguments used.

"Saying things like..."

Yes I did pick one of the arguments used, I never said that's all they did.  It was an example of the  less than thorough manner in which they explored one of the angles you mentioned (religion).  The rest of those angles explored were similarly limited and one-sided towards hokey comic book morality and involved deeply naive viewpoints about how this tv world has been shown to work.

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Re: Daredevil 3 Episodes 10-13
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2018, 10:21:11 AM »
You're only picking one of the many arguments used.

"Saying things like..."

Yes I did pick one of the arguments used, I never said that's all they did.  It was an example of the  less than thorough manner in which they explored one of the angles you mentioned (religion).  The rest of those angles explored were similarly limited and one-sided towards hokey comic book morality and involved deeply naive viewpoints about how this tv world has been shown to work.


But that's my point--none of the other arguments the show made that I mentioned have anything to do with hokey comic book morality, "comic code-esque" declarations. Some of them were even practical reasons that ignored what you call naivete. And despite all of that, Matt was still going to kill Fisk anyway until legal means were practically inevitible and the achilles heel of Vanessa presented themselves.

In the real world, mob organizations have achieved a lot of the things Fisk did for years, even in the U.S. (including getting local FBI agents to sanction their murders and legally take out competition, jury tamper in countless cases to become legally untouchable for years, run operations despite "monitored" house arrests and even from prison, etc.). It would actually be pretty easy for "honest" law enforcement officers to say $&$& it and have these people murdered under any number of false pretenses, but most people don't think it's naive that they don't for all of the logical and ethical reasons I pointed out.

Eventually, even if other laws are bent or broken (e.g. illegal searches, "parallel construction" of illegally obtained evidence), it's actually more effective to use the justice system to thoroughly dismantle a mob boss and his infrastructure, and the writers did a good job of opening those avenues in the end.


Kallor

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Re: Daredevil 3 Episodes 10-13
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2018, 11:08:00 AM »
You're only picking one of the many arguments used.

"Saying things like..."

Yes I did pick one of the arguments used, I never said that's all they did.  It was an example of the  less than thorough manner in which they explored one of the angles you mentioned (religion).  The rest of those angles explored were similarly limited and one-sided towards hokey comic book morality and involved deeply naive viewpoints about how this tv world has been shown to work.


But that's my point--none of the other arguments the show made that I mentioned have anything to do with hokey comic book morality, "comic code-esque" declarations. Some of them were even practical reasons that ignored what you call naivete.

You're overselling the laughable and one-sided discussions on this issue so much, but fine it worked for you.

Quote
In the real world, mob organizations have...

In the Daredevil world, Wilson Fisk is an absurdly all-knowing genius who is five steps ahead of everyone around him and has shown his aptitude to escape first state level and now federal level entities and laws.  A different crime boss taking his place would be infinitely less dangerous and effective.

The show doesn't even try to sell you on the idea that the justice system can deal with him.  "No prison can hold me", it is in fact the "prison" of his love for Vanessa that is supposed to keep Kingpin in check, a tenuous thread for Daredevil to hang the safety of everyone he knows and loves along with the rest of the city.

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Re: Daredevil 3 Episodes 10-13
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2018, 12:07:37 PM »
You're overselling the laughable and one-sided discussions on this issue so much, but fine it worked for you.

I'm not, though. I'm just pointing out that you're oversimplifying the way the show has handled the issue. Your characterization would apply far more to something like the Nolan Batman movies than it does here, which explored the pros and cons beyond "Killing is always wrong".



In the Daredevil world, Wilson Fisk is an absurdly all-knowing genius who is five steps ahead of everyone around him and has shown his aptitude to escape first state level and now federal level entities and laws.  A different crime boss taking his place would be infinitely less dangerous and effective.


Fisk is a somewhat exaggerated version of the most effective real world mob bosses (though less so than you're implying, given what they've accomplished on those same state and Federal levels); OTOH, the real world has absolutely nothing analogous to someone as effective at operating on the margins of the justice system as Daredevil, so it's a wash.

You're making a somewhat facile argument to ignore the underlying point, which is that in a relative sense, real world crime organizations are often just as murderous, just as effective in gaining government complicity through blackmail/bribery/extortion/threats/manipulation (even going as far as to use long cons and intelligence service tactics), and seemingly just as above the courts for very long stretches of time, as Fisk. The brave people who confront these monsters every day face the same dilemmas, and weigh the same pros and cons of just assassinating them; when they choose to try bending (but not breaking) the justice system instead--despite all of the corruption, and the years it will take while these groups continue to murder, rape, and literally enslave others--they're not engaging in Silver Age morality.


The show doesn't even try to sell you on the idea that the justice system can deal with him.  "No prison can hold me", it is in fact the "prison" of his love for Vanessa that is supposed to keep Kingpin in check, a tenuous thread for Daredevil to hang the safety of everyone he knows and loves along with the rest of the city.

Except the show does try to sell us on the idea--that's Foggy's entire narrative role in the series, and his methods worked thanks to Ray's sacrifice. It's very obvious that, much like Whitey Bulger, Fisk will never be able to use the government like that again, even within the political reality the show established.

Now, the writers are honest enough to not make the victory of Foggy's philosophy absolute, and still suggest that Fisk will always be dangerous in one way or another--that ambiguity and threat is what makes these ethical conflicts so compelling and difficult, and why the M.A.D. tactic with Vanessa is also needed as additional cover. That's different from what you're describing, though.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 05:39:27 PM by Visitor-Q »

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Re: Daredevil 3 Episodes 10-13
« Reply #24 on: Today at 10:30:52 AM »
College age Karen paige was muy caliente.