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Captain Marvel - spoilers inside

nu-safado

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Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #105 on: March 20, 2019, 02:44:09 PM »
Superman is the most powerful hero (including screen versions) with layers and layers of complexity

Even in the flawed Man of Steel Superman hs learning to fly scene is one of the biggest payoffs in the movies.

When Superman finally gets the basic run of his powers, he's forced to confront 3 other Kryptonians, all from the Kryptonian guild and all of whom are threats before they have their full powerset or any kind of control

As much as Superman fucks up because he doesn't care about any collateral damage while going onto kill Zod, there is real suspense and real stakes. If Superman fails, there is nothing on earth that can stop Zod and his crew.

The payoff is that when we get to the final battle, Even the lead up gets this part right. Every time Zod masters a new power it feels like  an "oh shit" moment.

Once the big boss battle begins it's brutal and Superman's inexperience shows. Zod is a lifetime soldier who has been fighting since birth and Clark is... a farm boy. Zod has the upper hand and as an audience, we know he won't kill Superman, he's absolutely capable of getting in a killing blow and there's no one else if Zod wins.

It's tension. Imperfect, but Superman has his big dig deep moment which ends.....badly but decisively. By Justice League, he's clearly gotten a power upgrade, experience in using his power, and he's closer to the Superman we know. or as close as a Snyder Superman can be.

Cap Marvel gets her power and wins right away. Literally figures out her powers like she received an instructional Udemy series and instead of having an opponent, she just flies through the mega ships, stops missiles and calls it a day. No suspense, no big confrontation, and no real stakes.

The film actually DOES have a small learning curve for her, but it's not shown well. When she starts glowing, all the lights on the Kree ship begin to dim and the force field dampens. That's her absorbing energy to power up. If that part is shown and played up, or she has to figure out how to power up while stopping the missiles then it feels more heroic or at the very least, it's a white knuckle moment

ProjectCornDog

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Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #106 on: March 20, 2019, 04:18:29 PM »
I absolutely agree with your assessment there Nu-Safado.

XerxesTWD

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Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #107 on: March 20, 2019, 05:05:21 PM »
Superman is the most powerful hero (including screen versions) with layers and layers of complexity

Even in the flawed Man of Steel Superman hs learning to fly scene is one of the biggest payoffs in the movies.

When Superman finally gets the basic run of his powers, he's forced to confront 3 other Kryptonians, all from the Kryptonian guild and all of whom are threats before they have their full powerset or any kind of control

As much as Superman fucks up because he doesn't care about any collateral damage while going onto kill Zod, there is real suspense and real stakes. If Superman fails, there is nothing on earth that can stop Zod and his crew.

The payoff is that when we get to the final battle, Even the lead up gets this part right. Every time Zod masters a new power it feels like  an "oh shit" moment.

Once the big boss battle begins it's brutal and Superman's inexperience shows. Zod is a lifetime soldier who has been fighting since birth and Clark is... a farm boy. Zod has the upper hand and as an audience, we know he won't kill Superman, he's absolutely capable of getting in a killing blow and there's no one else if Zod wins.

It's tension. Imperfect, but Superman has his big dig deep moment which ends.....badly but decisively. By Justice League, he's clearly gotten a power upgrade, experience in using his power, and he's closer to the Superman we know. or as close as a Snyder Superman can be.

Cap Marvel gets her power and wins right away. Literally figures out her powers like she received an instructional Udemy series and instead of having an opponent, she just flies through the mega ships, stops missiles and calls it a day. No suspense, no big confrontation, and no real stakes.

The film actually DOES have a small learning curve for her, but it's not shown well. When she starts glowing, all the lights on the Kree ship begin to dim and the force field dampens. That's her absorbing energy to power up. If that part is shown and played up, or she has to figure out how to power up while stopping the missiles then it feels more heroic or at the very least, it's a white knuckle moment
Sorry, but you can't crow about Superman all the time then whine because you think a character faced an enemy "without real stakes." He's the poster boy for your primary complaint.


Layers and layers of complexity...  good Lord.

nu-safado

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Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #108 on: March 22, 2019, 10:12:47 PM »
Just Action#775 is an incredible, nuanced story. There are dozens and dozens of amazing stories playing with the idea of the top dog superhero and problems he can't just punch in the face.

Hell, you could have Superman remain a moral stalwart and an unstoppable force and his supporting cast and how he relates to them would be an interesting story. You can tell Superman stories on a level of ultra mythological scope or use Clark Kent and his relation to humanity as a down-to-earth story that's fascinating

I, personally, love Superman above all other heroes.

Still, that's because I like that epic scope, aspiring to greatness, the whole mythos and it fits  my personality

You can tell endlessly interesting stories about WonderWoman, Green Lantern, Dr Strange, Hulk, Thor or Shazam

Always wondered about a Shazam story set 80 years in the future. Billy is now approaching 95 and he has to decide whether to die as a mortal or return to the shining ideal of his youth as Shazam and risk being corrupted like Black Adam without a human tether. How many normal people would choose fading away into old age over returning to not oly their prime, but demi-godhood

Cap Marvel is what..........girlllllllll power

She'll get a feel when she comes back and she sees Monica Rambeau and thinks its Maria, but then finds Maria in her late 60's or so and realize she's out-of-touch. So, a brief Cap America moment (and Cap does it SO much better)

Other than that, how many defining stories does Cap Marvel have?

She's an ok character shoe-horned in for the franchise movie that will break 3 billion dollars - but she's a part of the ensemble, on her own she's ok.




XerxesTWD

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Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #109 on: March 22, 2019, 11:10:07 PM »

nu-safado

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Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #110 on: March 23, 2019, 12:55:29 AM »
No, but it just shows that instead of Superman being the overpowered boring, storyless character you're making him out to be he has layers of depth and amazing stories. Even mediocre Superman films (except Superman Returns) have deep layers and explore the character in a new light

A lot of Marvel has become more interesting having had the chance.

Cap Marvel is the exact opposite.

Instead of Marvel taking the chance to develop a character that's mediocre at best in comics and fleshing her out into new dimensions, she's just a less cheesy cardboard cutout

Does Cap Marvel have any real interesting runs or stories in comics? Seriously, I don't know of any.

As far as I can see she flew around in sexy lingerie cosplay for a few decades until Marvel decided to shoehorn a meh character into the MCU for Endgame.  Marvel could have had her in the MCU in some capacity and used their classic technique of taking their b and c level characters and making them interesting

Look at how boring soe of their comics characters were and how deep and profound their stories are now.

Cap America is interesting as hell with an awesome supporting cast, layers of complexity, and a real story. So, from anachronistic one-dimensional cheeseball to an awesome character

Same treatment for Iron Man (to say the least), Black Widow, and most of the Avengers. Thor is far from his comic self but he's being given a new dimension due to Chris Hemsworth's comedic chops

Hell, Dr Strange has been fleshed out in an incredible way cinematically. The battle with Thanos, especially if you knew what the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak are, was great. His sacrifice, his evolution. Sweet

The only guy who's really been given short thrift is Hulk. His best stories were cannibalized to make him comic relief most of the time and nerfing stories like World War Hulk.


XerxesTWD

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Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #111 on: March 23, 2019, 11:57:58 AM »
No, but it just shows that instead of Superman being the overpowered boring, storyless character you're making him out to be he has layers of depth and amazing stories. Even mediocre Superman films (except Superman Returns) have deep layers and explore the character in a new light
They must be yet interesting and stacked with layers after the way you immediately ran to comic books for examples.

Snake-eyes

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Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #112 on: March 23, 2019, 02:04:37 PM »
Superman is one of the most boring superhero characters to have ever been given a movie.

nu-safado

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Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #113 on: March 24, 2019, 03:33:35 PM »
How many real Superman movies have we really had?

Superman - Chris Reeve - unbelievable, especially considering it was treating the major themes

Superman Returns - bad movie, but because it tried to create crappy subject material and recapture Reeve Superman with a bad doppelganger

Man of Steel - Very flawed, but absolutely complex for the reasons cited

Superman vS batman - really Batman's movie with Superman as a supporting character

Justice League - Superman just shows off to display how powerful he is post-resurrection mostly and his epic CGI lip



However..............

The best "classic" depiction of Batman has clearly been Batman The Animated Series and out of the many non-comic  versions of Superman, we can clearly see that Superman has been done justice in Animated, and then we have Donner-man and bit's and pieces of Smallville which IMHO really nailed it at times - although in clunky CW fashion and sporadically.


Marvel has worked because it's complicated licensing system and character rights prevented it from using its A-list characters. So, it took Captain America, Thor, Hulk (who can only be distributed by Universal) - and invented stories for them that resonate now. As the A-listers are coming in, they're coming into the best version of a comic-style story - a serialized story.

Warner/DC is coming into its own now.

WW was epic
Aquaman was a 1.3 bi
Shazam is getting glowing reviews

DC will take the best of it's the Synder-verse (Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn, Vola Davis's Amanda Waller) and start to build its own brand and when Batman is recast and Cavill is decided on - we'll have (likely) great, classic-style stories for both of them

Movies have way too many moving parts to just dismiss

Superman has done well in so many mediums storylines it's crazy to dismiss him. Animated All-Star Superman was off-the-hook

Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #114 on: March 24, 2019, 07:26:24 PM »
Honestly that feels like a lot of speculation

Snake-eyes

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Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #115 on: March 24, 2019, 07:47:27 PM »
How many real Superman movies have we really had?

Way too many.

80sBaby

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Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #116 on: March 24, 2019, 08:59:37 PM »
I like how safado ignores Superman 2-4.

MTL76

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Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #117 on: March 24, 2019, 09:04:42 PM »
I like how safado ignores Superman 2-4.

Not sure why because Superman 2 was awesome.

Captain Marvel was not very enjoyable (to me, my personal opinion), but at least it was well put-together. It was done by people who knew how to tell a story, introduce characters, give characters personality, etc. It was watchable, even for someone (like me) who wasn’t into it. Unlike MoS and BMvSM, which were absolute trainwrecks.


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NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #118 on: March 24, 2019, 09:20:14 PM »
What you don't like scenes of Superman starring at trapped people on their roof?

Bran Mak Morn

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Re: Captain Marvel - spoilers inside
« Reply #119 on: March 24, 2019, 09:55:37 PM »
What you don't like scenes of Superman starring at trapped people on their roof?

Hey the dude's gotta undress 'em with his X-ray eyes to consider who to save first!
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