Herochat

Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers

Sick Nick

  • ****
  • 833
  • +8/-2
    • View Profile
Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2018, 06:01:09 AM »
The JLA/Avengers crossover was among the least infected crossovers when it came to politics IMO, but it was not necessarily entirely immune.
But it's still just one writer.

That's exactly it. Canon or no, it's one guy's opinion and Busiek's well-known for being acutely aware of Thor's limitations, to put it mildly.

By contrast, it's rumoured that the Supes/Thor fight in the planned 80s crossover would've ended in a stalemate, in spite of Superman's much greater power level at the time.

With that said, the crossover was handled by two guys who were hugely respected by both DC and Marvel and who were relatively unbiased. It's not like the first Marvel/DC crossover, where the writers must've felt like they were tapdancing on egg shells not to offend anyone.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 06:03:40 AM by Sick Nick »
Hyrkanian Badass



He'll be buying drinks all night then.

Sick Nick

  • ****
  • 833
  • +8/-2
    • View Profile
Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2018, 06:07:34 AM »
Then he didn't show that in writing.

You only have to look at the Pagan fight to see the difference between Wondy and Thor in Busiek's stories. Wondy was unquestionably the strongest Avenger after Thor but he went down to Pagan in short order, whereas Thor gave Pagan some serious trouble before getting dropped.

On Alvaro, Busiek even brought up the Handbook's 95 tons figure when he was talking about Simon's power level, seemingly unaware that Simon was upgraded to Class 100 in the '89 Update.

All of this took place at the time the crossover was released, long before you were posting, I think.
Hyrkanian Badass



He'll be buying drinks all night then.

Pillow Biter

  • ******
  • 2111
  • +5/-2
    • View Profile
Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2018, 06:12:09 AM »
I think there may be one bias that is common among older writers. A lot of them, like all of us, are shaped by their childhoods. In their childhoods, DC was definitely more cartoony and their heroes were typically on a grander scale; Marvel was more about gritty realism. My feeling is that to some extent, Busiek's comments and approach (DC heroes are more powerful, DC Earth is bigger, etc.) may have been shaped by this childhood bias.
I'm not sure that applies so much anymore if you take comics from say the last 10-15 years.
That said, I think that Busiek probably did try to give Thor more props than Busiek himself probably felt he deserved deep down. And while I wouldn't say DC heroes are more powerful than their Marvel equivalents on the whole in the modern era, I think Superman could actually handle Thor MORE easily these days than he did in JLA/Avengers, unless the magic weakness were brought into play.
(By these days I'm still thinking of the last 10ish years or so, and not just looking at the most recent portrayals.)
 

Abhilegend

  • *******
  • 6711
  • +24/-29
    • View Profile
Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2018, 12:58:42 PM »
He had Cap straight up say Thor was the most powerful Avenger ever.


But he also said he didn't want to use Sersi on the Avengers because she was too powerful and could do anything with a wave of his hand. Somebody on Alvaro asked if he thought she was more powerful than Thor and he said 'yeah.'


This was while Sersi and other Avengers were shown in the book. Cap said Thor was always the most powerful Avenger. That's a pretty distinct thing from saying he was less powerful than Sersi or Warbird.
Quote


Similarly, somebody asked him why he was using Warbird and not Binary and he said pretty much the same thing ... Binary was too powerful for the Avengers and was more powerful than Thor. He said Surfer was more powerful than Thor elsewhere.

Basically, Busiek sees Thor as one of the most powerful Earth-based heroes but doesn't see him as a peer of the true cosmic characters, whereas most writers do. He tried to justify the fact that Thor doesn't end most battles with a wave of Mjolnir by imposing limits on certain abilities Thor's displayed ... ignoring the facts that:

a) Thor lives for battle and doesn't WANT to necessarily win quickly
b) As a Viking god, Thor values strength above anything else and believes it's more honourable and manly to win a fight using his muscles. Stuff like opening portals he uses as a last resort and besides, that tactic has backfired on him eg. Juggernaut
c) Thor's not stupid but he's also not the smartest guy in the world and in the heat of battle, he often might simply FORGET to use his hammer as well as he might


I disagree. He clearly wrote Thor more powerful than Warbird when Carol was turned into Warbird later in the book.
Quote


Quote
I disagree. Thor was actually destroying Ultron's secondary Adamantium bodies like nothing while entire Avengers team couldn't scratch it.


But he's still just smashing shit. Hercules could've done the same thing.

Busiek basically writes Thor as Hercules with Storm's powers. Under other writers, Mjolnir is closer to a GL ring, it can do practically anything.


Not exactly. It hasn't been shown that way in decades. Even GL rings aren't that versatile these days.

And he drained Presence dry when he got angry.
Quote


Quote
That was combined power of his and mjolnir.


It was as soon as he picked up the weapon, he was gasping at the power within it. He wasn't gasping at his own power.

He was gasping at the combined power of his own and the hammer.

Busiek already stated that Thor wasn't powerful enough to break the barrier.

Abhilegend

  • *******
  • 6711
  • +24/-29
    • View Profile
Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2018, 01:02:17 PM »
Then he didn't show that in writing.

You only have to look at the Pagan fight to see the difference between Wondy and Thor in Busiek's stories. Wondy was unquestionably the strongest Avenger after Thor but he went down to Pagan in short order, whereas Thor gave Pagan some serious trouble before getting dropped.


Simon wasn't dropped by Pagan, he was stunned and was coming back to fight when mjolnir thrown by Thor struck him and Simon wasn't even hurt.
Quote


On Alvaro, Busiek even brought up the Handbook's 95 tons figure when he was talking about Simon's power level, seemingly unaware that Simon was upgraded to Class 100 in the '89 Update.


I know.
Quote


All of this took place at the time the crossover was released, long before you were posting, I think.
That's why I know he didn't reflect it in his writing.

Sick Nick

  • ****
  • 833
  • +8/-2
    • View Profile
Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2018, 06:51:03 AM »
Simon wasn't dropped by Pagan, he was stunned and was coming back to fight when mjolnir thrown by Thor struck him and Simon wasn't even hurt.


He was overpowered far more easily than Pagan managed to overpower Thor. There was a considerable difference between Thor and Wonder Man, just as there was in the JLA/Avengers crossover.
Hyrkanian Badass



He'll be buying drinks all night then.

Sick Nick

  • ****
  • 833
  • +8/-2
    • View Profile
Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2018, 06:59:56 AM »
This was while Sersi and other Avengers were shown in the book. Cap said Thor was always the most powerful Avenger. That's a pretty distinct thing from saying he was less powerful than Sersi or Warbird.


I'm just repeating what Busiek said. Was Sersi standing right in front of Cap when he said that? Perhaps Cap's opinion isn't necessarily Busiek's? Cap also said he wouldn't argue with Hulk in 'Secret Wars' when he said he was the strongest hero present, despite Thor being around.

Quote
I disagree.

With what? Just the Binary comment or the rest of it?

Quote
He clearly wrote Thor more powerful than Warbird when Carol was turned into Warbird later in the book.


Warbird? Busiek said Thor wasn't as powerful as Binary.

Quote
Not exactly. It hasn't been shown that way in decades. Even GL rings aren't that versatile these days.

And he drained Presence dry when he got angry.


Aaron's shown Mjolnir doing crazy stuff and possessing greater power than it has in decades. Busiek sure as hell wouldn't show the sentient storm within Mjolnir battling Odin himself evenly for aeons or Thor giving Odin pause as Jane did.

Quote
He was gasping at the combined power of his own and the hammer.

Busiek already stated that Thor wasn't powerful enough to break the barrier.

Why would he gasp at his own power? It doesn't make sense, unless you think Mjolnir augmented Superman's own strength?

In any case, Thor's admitted his own brute strength is a drop in the ocean compared with Mjolnir. Superman's strength is a slightly bigger drop in the ocean.
Hyrkanian Badass



He'll be buying drinks all night then.

Animalia

  • ******
  • 2578
  • +10/-7
  • Ca nisciun รจ fess!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2018, 08:55:26 AM »
Superman was stated to be more powerful than entire Avengers team that jumped him and straight up more powerful than Thor by Busiek.





Take that as you can. Busiek straight up states that Thor+Avengers team couldn't beat Superman by raw power.
No Abhi, if you get assualted by a group of 20 old women and they beat you...it means these 20 old ladies kicked your ass, even if you could manhandle each one of them.