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Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers

Sick Nick

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Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« on: September 11, 2018, 12:18:56 PM »
Imagine Supes and WW swapped opponents in JLA/Avengers. Instead of Hercules, WW finds herself facing Thor when she travels to Asgard with Aquaman. Arthur fights She-Hulk as before and the Asgardians don't interfere in the battle and let's say that Aquaman beats Shulkie to the artifact while Diana keeps Thor busy. However, would DC win this time? Don't just compare power-sets, also keep in mind the relative standings of the characters at the time and the importance they had to their companies ... Thor's not just more powerful than Hercules, he's also much more prized by Marvel and a Thor win is more important to them than a Hercules one.

One the flipside, Hercules throws down with Superman in the same location as the Thor/Supes fight. Again bearing in mind what's at stake and the importance of the characters to their relative companies, would Herc last more than a panel?

fangirl101

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Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2018, 03:41:12 PM »
Imagine Supes and WW swapped opponents in JLA/Avengers. Instead of Hercules, WW finds herself facing Thor when she travels to Asgard with Aquaman. Arthur fights She-Hulk as before and the Asgardians don't interfere in the battle and let's say that Aquaman beats Shulkie to the artifact while Diana keeps Thor busy. However, would DC win this time? Don't just compare power-sets, also keep in mind the relative standings of the characters at the time and the importance they had to their companies ... Thor's not just more powerful than Hercules, he's also much more prized by Marvel and a Thor win is more important to them than a Hercules one.

One the flipside, Hercules throws down with Superman in the same location as the Thor/Supes fight. Again bearing in mind what's at stake and the importance of the characters to their relative companies, would Herc last more than a panel?
Even then, WW broke Quasar's construct  and handled Wonder Man in Ionic form. She would have lasted much longer against Thor. While Herce would have been treated like Superman did Wonder Man.

Panthergod

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Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2018, 01:04:32 AM »
Diana is far faster than post Isotope E -/JLA/Avengers era Quicksilver.

Sick Nick

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Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2018, 04:27:29 AM »
Even then, WW broke Quasar's construct  and handled Wonder Man in Ionic form. She would have lasted much longer against Thor.

But would have eventually lost ... is that what you're saying?

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While Herce would have been treated like Superman did Wonder Man.

Supes jumped Wondy from behind, and shattering a GL construct aside, Simon was treated like dirt in that crossover. Busiek has stated he doesn't see Wondy as being much more powerful than Giant Man and definitely doesn't regard him as Class 100.

Herc might last 1.5 panels instead of 1.

Sick Nick

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Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2018, 04:33:48 AM »
Bottom line:

There was no way DC would allow their top gun to lose because he's their golden boy as well.

Thor was unquestionably the most powerful Avenger in the main crossover but he just wasn't that big a deal to Marvel at the time. Marvel could live with him going down to the JLA's most powerful and important member - that's just the cachet that Superman has across companies.

Going down to Wonder Woman, though? That's a whole different kettle of fish and Marvel would never have allowed that to happen. The best she could hope for would be a stalemate.

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2018, 10:15:19 AM »
Superman was stated to be more powerful than entire Avengers team that jumped him and straight up more powerful than Thor by Busiek.





Take that as you can. Busiek straight up states that Thor+Avengers team couldn't beat Superman by raw power.

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2018, 10:19:34 AM »
Even then, WW broke Quasar's construct  and handled Wonder Man in Ionic form. She would have lasted much longer against Thor.

But would have eventually lost ... is that what you're saying?

Quote
While Herce would have been treated like Superman did Wonder Man.

Supes jumped Wondy from behind, and shattering a GL construct aside, Simon was treated like dirt in that crossover. Busiek has stated he doesn't see Wondy as being much more powerful than Giant Man and definitely doesn't regard him as Class 100.

Herc might last 1.5 panels instead of 1.
Busiek had Simon fight Hyperion pretty evenly and had Simon state that he was almost as strong as Thor.

Busiek's Thor was probably the most powerful Thor in an Avengers book though.

gokenadams

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Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2018, 06:24:59 PM »
Lmao seriously?

Wonder Woman was hit by the surface of the sun.









Sick Nick

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Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2018, 08:57:53 AM »
Even then, WW broke Quasar's construct  and handled Wonder Man in Ionic form. She would have lasted much longer against Thor.

But would have eventually lost ... is that what you're saying?

Quote
While Herce would have been treated like Superman did Wonder Man.

Supes jumped Wondy from behind, and shattering a GL construct aside, Simon was treated like dirt in that crossover. Busiek has stated he doesn't see Wondy as being much more powerful than Giant Man and definitely doesn't regard him as Class 100.

Herc might last 1.5 panels instead of 1.
Busiek had Simon fight Hyperion pretty evenly and had Simon state that he was almost as strong as Thor.

Busiek's Thor was probably the most powerful Thor in an Avengers book though.

What, the Thor whose portal power depended on stellar patterns etc.? Busiek looked for reasons to power Thor down. He said Thor wasn't as powerful as either Sersi, the Silver Surfer or Binary, and was firmly in the 'Thor is not bulletproof' camp, despite evidence to the contrary.

Some Thor fans at the time gave Busiek an unfairly hard time and claimed he hated the Odinson. I don't think that's true, I think he was a Thor fan but his was one of the weaker Thunder Gods out there, basically Hercules with a hammer and lightning powers.

Odd for Superman to be so staggered by the power of Mjolnir if it was inferior to his own power as well. If I was suddenly given the strength of my eight-year old daughter, I wouldn't start shouting 'ZOMG THE POWAH!11!!'

On the Alvaro boards, when Busiek's depiction of Wondy was criticised, he said that Simon was created to be as strong as Giant Man, not Thor.

Sick Nick

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Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2018, 09:20:08 AM »
Superman was stated to be more powerful than entire Avengers team that jumped him and straight up more powerful than Thor by Busiek.





Take that as you can. Busiek straight up states that Thor+Avengers team couldn't beat Superman by raw power.

In that first quote, Busiek isn't saying that Supes alone is more powerful than the 4 or 5 Avengers who jumped him. He's saying he's more powerful than Thor alone i.e. he's directly comparing Thor's lone assault against that of Hercules and co.

That still seems really odd, given Superman's exclamation about Mjolnir. Of course, you could always claim that Marvel insisted Supes had to rave about Mjolnir to sweeten Thor's defeat but the whole JLA/Avengers project was infested with politics. That's why I think it's ridiculous to use it as evidence of anything. It was a 'quid pro quo' exercise and a popularity contest.

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2018, 02:18:32 PM »
Even then, WW broke Quasar's construct  and handled Wonder Man in Ionic form. She would have lasted much longer against Thor.

But would have eventually lost ... is that what you're saying?

Quote
While Herce would have been treated like Superman did Wonder Man.

Supes jumped Wondy from behind, and shattering a GL construct aside, Simon was treated like dirt in that crossover. Busiek has stated he doesn't see Wondy as being much more powerful than Giant Man and definitely doesn't regard him as Class 100.

Herc might last 1.5 panels instead of 1.
Busiek had Simon fight Hyperion pretty evenly and had Simon state that he was almost as strong as Thor.

Busiek's Thor was probably the most powerful Thor in an Avengers book though.

What, the Thor whose portal power depended on stellar patterns etc.? Busiek looked for reasons to power Thor down. He said Thor wasn't as powerful as either Sersi, the Silver Surfer or Binary, and was firmly in the 'Thor is not bulletproof' camp, despite evidence to the contrary.


He had Cap straight up say Thor was the most powerful Avenger ever.
Quote


Some Thor fans at the time gave Busiek an unfairly hard time and claimed he hated the Odinson. I don't think that's true, I think he was a Thor fan but his was one of the weaker Thunder Gods out there, basically Hercules with a hammer and lightning powers.


I disagree. Thor was actually destroying Ultron's secondary Adamantium bodies like nothing while entire Avengers team couldn't scratch it.
Quote


Odd for Superman to be so staggered by the power of Mjolnir if it was inferior to his own power as well. If I was suddenly given the strength of my eight-year old daughter, I wouldn't start shouting 'ZOMG THE POWAH!11!!'


That was combined power of his and mjolnir.
Quote


On the Alvaro boards, when Busiek's depiction of Wondy was criticised, he said that Simon was created to be as strong as Giant Man, not Thor.
Then he didn't show that in writing.

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2018, 02:19:55 PM »
Superman was stated to be more powerful than entire Avengers team that jumped him and straight up more powerful than Thor by Busiek.





Take that as you can. Busiek straight up states that Thor+Avengers team couldn't beat Superman by raw power.

In that first quote, Busiek isn't saying that Supes alone is more powerful than the 4 or 5 Avengers who jumped him. He's saying he's more powerful than Thor alone i.e. he's directly comparing Thor's lone assault against that of Hercules and co.


He is saying Avengers beat Superman with numbers and teamwork and couldn't beat him in raw power.
Quote


That still seems really odd, given Superman's exclamation about Mjolnir. Of course, you could always claim that Marvel insisted Supes had to rave about Mjolnir to sweeten Thor's defeat but the whole JLA/Avengers project was infested with politics. That's why I think it's ridiculous to use it as evidence of anything. It was a 'quid pro quo' exercise and a popularity contest.
Agreed.

Pillow Biter

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Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2018, 02:47:25 PM »
The JLA/Avengers crossover was among the least infected crossovers when it came to politics IMO, but it was not necessarily entirely immune.
But it's still just one writer.

fangirl101

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Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2018, 04:07:31 PM »
The JLA/Avengers crossover was among the least infected crossovers when it came to politics IMO, but it was not necessarily entirely immune.
But it's still just one writer.
Pretty much. Everyone has always agreed DCs heroes where more powerful over all. On fact, its been a hindrance to great stories. And Superman being so powerful alienates fans of other dc characters.

Sick Nick

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Re: Superman/Wonder Woman vs Thor/Hercules in JLA/Avengers
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2018, 05:03:35 AM »
He had Cap straight up say Thor was the most powerful Avenger ever.


But he also said he didn't want to use Sersi on the Avengers because she was too powerful and could do anything with a wave of his hand. Somebody on Alvaro asked if he thought she was more powerful than Thor and he said 'yeah.'

Similarly, somebody asked him why he was using Warbird and not Binary and he said pretty much the same thing ... Binary was too powerful for the Avengers and was more powerful than Thor. He said Surfer was more powerful than Thor elsewhere.

Basically, Busiek sees Thor as one of the most powerful Earth-based heroes but doesn't see him as a peer of the true cosmic characters, whereas most writers do. He tried to justify the fact that Thor doesn't end most battles with a wave of Mjolnir by imposing limits on certain abilities Thor's displayed ... ignoring the facts that:

a) Thor lives for battle and doesn't WANT to necessarily win quickly
b) As a Viking god, Thor values strength above anything else and believes it's more honourable and manly to win a fight using his muscles. Stuff like opening portals he uses as a last resort and besides, that tactic has backfired on him eg. Juggernaut
c) Thor's not stupid but he's also not the smartest guy in the world and in the heat of battle, he often might simply FORGET to use his hammer as well as he might

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I disagree. Thor was actually destroying Ultron's secondary Adamantium bodies like nothing while entire Avengers team couldn't scratch it.


But he's still just smashing shit. Hercules could've done the same thing.

Busiek basically writes Thor as Hercules with Storm's powers. Under other writers, Mjolnir is closer to a GL ring, it can do practically anything.

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That was combined power of his and mjolnir.


It was as soon as he picked up the weapon, he was gasping at the power within it. He wasn't gasping at his own power.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 06:01:55 AM by Sick Nick »