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Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences

Pillow Biter

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Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« on: August 06, 2018, 06:04:20 AM »
Do you believe that there are statistical differences between populations (racial/ethnic groups) and/or genders, that are based in biology? Are these differences relevant? Are they purely superficial? Just physical? What about psychological? Intellectual?

Should research in these areas be banned? Limited?

Uhtceare

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Re: Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2018, 06:17:09 AM »
I do recall one study where white, asian, and black babies had a cloth placed over their nose and mouth. The black and white babies immediately shook off the cloth angrily. The asian babies just adjusted their breathing, opening their mouths wider. I don't know how definitive or reputable this test was, but I've always found it interesting.

Pillow Biter

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Re: Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2018, 06:50:47 AM »
I find the field dangerous, but interesting. I'm of the belief that scientifically, the likelihood of any population being equal in any trait that one decides to measure is very small; however, the degree of difference is up for grabs. I believe people who begin with the a priori idea that there would be statistical group equality at virtually anything don't really grasp evolution. As genders evolve together in a given population, potential gender differences are a bit different than population differences.

That said, perhaps it is better not to know, as humans being humans, this makes it more difficult for us to treat individuals as individuals; and in the vast majority of cases, one should do so. Perhaps unfortunately, modern science may be making a 'don't ask; don't tell' approach increasingly difficult.

scourge

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Re: Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2018, 08:57:42 AM »
Cultural factors being what they are, this sort of research serves to do more harm than good at the moment. I believe there are differences, but those differences are based on large swaths of people suggesting one gender is more like this, or one race more like that...OVERALL. That overall becomes so downplayed that people then are likely to forget how individuals from any of these groups can be closer or further to the mean and the tendency to want to generalize, to create heuristics by which to understand the world is maybe just natural, allows the human brain to categorize information more neatly, but those hueristics are not reality for any individual and in many cases aren’t even true for groups or segments of the larger whole, yet will still get applied. Often will be used as evidence of people who want to spout some pretty horrible stuff from  current cultural standpoint and say “well it’s backed by science” when all they’re doing is simplifying, generalizing, and creating a narrative that fits their preconceived world view...what I’m trying to say is: no, bad.

Pillow Biter

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Re: Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2018, 09:12:51 AM »
I agree that what we might call a noble lie or noble ignorance approach might be, given human nature, a better approach at any given time--particularly at this time when we are trying to create multi-racial societies in the West, and in a 'smaller' world where even racially homogeneous nations still have to interact and live together.

However, regardless of how one feels about the above approach, it may be moot. It's pretty hard to ban or stop science without undo tyranny, i.e., the cure would be worse than the disease. So the science continues, but because it remains the 'third rail' of academia, you don't  typically get the best scientists on it. Moreover, while most scientists working in the field are not "racists" or racially motivated, due to the risk one takes in engaging in such research, I'd say there is a lot more of this going on in these fields than in other ones. And the research that is done keeps slipping out and is immediately transmitted across the world via the interwebs.

So for all it's dangers, we may be at the point where we have to open up these fields. Despite it being a harder fight, given human nature, to sell people on the idea that groups are not equal, but we have to put these differences in perspective and treat people as individuals when we can, this might need to be the new theater of battle. Simply telling everyone that all genders and races are 'equal' in every way may no longer be tenable.

Uhtceare

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Re: Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2018, 09:26:19 AM »
Eh, the thing is, there really isn't an environment that favors stupid. With physical differences, the environmental advantages are pretty obvious. Low melanin is favored in environments where vitamin D is extremely scarce in the winter months. High melanin is favored in regions where vitamin D isn't an issue, but being burned by the sun is.

 A penguiny body shape is favored by areas where it snows a lot, as this protects against hypothermia and makes one less likely to break your legs trudging through the snow. A tall, lean build is favored in regions where it is hot, as this is easier to keep cool, and agile movements are more important in hunting than not tripping and breaking your leg in the snow is.

Regions where malaria is an issue favor blood cells of a malaria-resistant shape with increased anemia risk being an acceptable price. In areas where malaria isn't an issue, the blood cells are shaped in a way that favors a smaller likelyhood of anemia. And on and on.

The reasons for physical racial differences are fairly obvious once you look. But intelligence is equally useful in all environments. Hence, to the best of my knowledge, a fairly even distribution of geniuses and idiots.

 In any case, we are headed towards a genetic engineering singularity, which will makes any statistical variability a moot issue fairly soon.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 09:28:46 AM by Uhtceare »

Pillow Biter

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Re: Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2018, 09:39:37 AM »
I disagree. It's not that intelligence is not valuable in most if not all environments, but rather that it may have been more valuable relative to other traits, in certain environments. Furthermore, evolution is tricky. It may make mistakes. It may do things we don't understand. Etc. Furthermore, culture--though to some degree based on environment--is also at play. The real difficulty with Evo Pysch is that one the one hand, it's pretty clear that it probably does contain many if not most of the 'answers'; on the other hand, it's a real bitch to figure out.

What we do know, though, is that given biological or genetic traits--whatever their origin--do tend to cluster in populations that are basically geographically defined. Perhaps unfortunately, I don't think there is any easy way out of the idea that different populations are likely to have different average intelligence levels, though measuring intelligence has of course not been perfected. The idea that 'race' was scientifically non-sensical was another attempt to get us out of the bind of having to think about such things. But it was also wrong. Races do exist.

Also, while we are headed towards a genetic population singularity, I think you will find that we are still a far ways off.

Uhtceare

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Re: Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2018, 10:51:07 AM »


Also, while we are headed towards a genetic population singularity, I think you will find that we are still a far ways off.

I didn't say a population singularity, I said a genetic engineering singularity. That is, a point at which every child will have engineered genius intelligence, this society of geniuses will engineer super-geniuses, and so forth, until the human species is rendered obsolete and extinct by its own engineering. Perhaps I'm naive, but I believe the first stages of this will happen by 2050, not that far off at all. Humanity may well have replaced ourselves with creatures who are not remotely recognizable as human by 2100.

therock

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Re: Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2018, 11:06:49 AM »
There was a intersting study on wolves. It was if you can raise them as dog. Mostly know they will bite your face off. but if you raised them as dogs, treat them like dog then they adjust even the pups will. They will become a little more dog like...not fullly it will always be danger. But as generations go they will be less danger as generation goes

So they changes the nature vs nurture debate. Since they effect one another down to the genetics. Not imagine that not over a 2-3 generation but multiple generations. You can farm out traits and adjust it simply by how you treat

So maybe yes we can make a super genius generation over multiple generation

Uhtceare

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Re: Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2018, 11:21:06 AM »
There was a intersting study on wolves. It was if you can raise them as dog. Mostly know they will bite your face off. but if you raised them as dogs, treat them like dog then they adjust even the pups will. They will become a little more dog like...not fullly it will always be danger. But as generations go they will be less danger as generation goes

So they changes the nature vs nurture debate. Since they effect one another down to the genetics. Not imagine that not over a 2-3 generation but multiple generations. You can farm out traits and adjust it simply by how you treat

So maybe yes we can make a super genius generation over multiple generation

I wasn't talking about selective breeding, but rather outright genetic engineering.

therock

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Re: Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2018, 11:24:34 AM »
There was a intersting study on wolves. It was if you can raise them as dog. Mostly know they will bite your face off. but if you raised them as dogs, treat them like dog then they adjust even the pups will. They will become a little more dog like...not fullly it will always be danger. But as generations go they will be less danger as generation goes

So they changes the nature vs nurture debate. Since they effect one another down to the genetics. Not imagine that not over a 2-3 generation but multiple generations. You can farm out traits and adjust it simply by how you treat

So maybe yes we can make a super genius generation over multiple generation

I wasn't talking about selective breeding, but rather outright genetic engineering.

like Gattaca?

Panthergod

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Re: Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2018, 09:17:08 PM »
I'll go ahead and establish that usually, the people who cite these arguments the most really WOULDN'TT like anything resembling a comprehensive definitive answer to this subject. And I'll leave it at that for now.

Pillow Biter

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Re: Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2018, 10:46:40 PM »

I wasn't talking about selective breeding, but rather outright genetic engineering.

Sorry. I did misread that. However, I think that we are still pretty far off from that as well, if less so than from a natural genetic singularity.

Pillow Biter

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Re: Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2018, 10:51:44 PM »
I'll go ahead and establish that usually, the people who cite these arguments the most really WOULDN'TT like anything resembling a comprehensive definitive answer to this subject. And I'll leave it at that for now.

This is perhaps true, though I'm not so sure. For example, guys like Charles Murray had no issue with the fact that their research did not put Whites at the top of the intellectual hierarchy, for example.

For myself, I'm fine with whatever definitive answers we find. It's pretty clear that there is going to be substantial overlap between populations, meaning that in the vast majority of cases, what matters is judging individuals. Most of us have some 'home team' allegiance, at least deep down; but I could get past that. I know many who could as well. I also know many who would struggle. It's definitely a problematic issue, but do we have any choice but to push ahead with the best science we can do? Isn't that better than reacting to the results of more mediocre science?

Uhtceare

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Re: Biology-based Population and Gender Group Differences
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2018, 04:07:32 AM »
It's definitely a problematic issue, but do we have any choice but to push ahead with the best science we can do?

I'm not sure I understand your implication of urgency? Is there really some burning need to discover if there is a correlation with melanin content or noses designed for low/high humidity and an extra couple of people out of every hundred-thousand being geniuses or idiots?