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What has Aaron done?

Visitor-Q

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2018, 08:02:32 PM »
Yes my mistake, I got confused with the recent Cates run after someone earlier in the thread poo-poo'ed Aaron's Strange.

Reviews of it seem solid, can't fault the covers, would probably be something I'd buy if I wasn't on a Marvel boycott until Aaron's off Thor.

No prob.

The writing has some problems, but Bachalo is pretty much one of the only artists post-1966 to really capture at least some of the weird, abstract spirit of Ditko's style while still being unique--at least in the ongoing series. Even in the best Strange runs, the art has been way too conventional (and mostly mediocre and boring).

Is replacing heroes with female knock-offs but still retaining the name something you have encountered of late? What about the emasculation of male heroes? Or the masculation of female heroines? Or Trump bashing? 

In order: Not really*, nope, elaborate on what you mean, and sure.

*There've been female versions of heroes, but I haven't encountered long term replacements outside of Thor and Iron Man (and, in the latter's case, Doctor Doom also replaced Tony in addition to Riri (while clearly suoerior to her), and Riri has been aided and mentored by the Tony Stark AI).

I also use "long term" loosely, since it's clear in both cases that the storylines were always meant to be finite (e.g. Jane's cancer from the spoilers I've read, Tony's coma and healing process--the plan with Riri is clearly to spin her off similar to War Machine [who'd also replaced Tony for awhile], Winter Soldier, and so on).

That's out of roughly 75 ongoing titles being published, and god knows how many mini series and one shots.

I keep making the analogy of 'Death By 1000 Cuts' that I think is a good one for the current situation.

Except a lot of those supposed cuts are either non-existent or massive overreactions to already existing character faults, traits, or tropes that have nothing to do with emasculation.

In the grand scheme of things, it's all very minor.


Which was a long time ago.

The absolute worst of it started slowly ending 50 years ago, but in terms of societal change and consequences, 5 decades really isn't that long when it comes to cultural memory (for reference, just review the entirety of human history*).

What's more, that's only the worst of it--if I use the standards these Comicsgaters use to nitpick and complain about male representation, women still had it worse than men even through the 90's than men have it now (i bet nitpicked examples for women would outnumber present-day male nitpicks at least 5 to 1).

*And, based on history, of course there are going to be militant subgroups within feminist and minority movements as a consequence of what happened to older generations that are still alive to remember it, even though they're a fraction of those overall movements.


The difference between then and now (in my opinion) is that the Mainstream Media is now almost exclusively left-wing. Back in the 80's it was primarily right-wing so Alan Moore (and others) were the anti-establishment 'Punk Rock' of comics. Note of course that they weren't hounded out because of their political beliefs though.

There was no social media back then--apples and oranges as far as lynch mob fan bases go.

Plenty of left wing creators across all creative industries get hounded in the present, however.


I don't know enough about Chuck Dixon and what work he's been getting but I'd hazard a guess (based on his past work) he's a better comic writer than many currently working in the industry including well known perennial 'victims' who keep getting titles thrown at them despite continually terrible sales.

That's all opinion and beside the point, which is that more openly trollish and extreme right wingers like Van Sciver were getting plenty of work during the 2007 - 2018 period when Dixon was pretending to be a conservative martyr.

I can give examples of them being hounded by the left for various transgressions (I don't know if they are altogether 'out' ):

Howard Chaykin, Donal Delay, J. Scott Campbell, Brandon Graham.

You've moved the goal posts now, though--there's a difference between social media outrage mobs (which amount to what--two hundred people?) and editorial blacklisting. Chaykin ans Campbell still get mainstream work despite whatever controversies Twitter got temporarily mad about.

Brandon Graham wasn't hounded because of his politics--he has a trans-woman fetish and was accused of weird and abusive behavior toward them in the past. Wherever that ends up landing, that's a far cry from what you're talking about.

Don't know about Delay, but if he's like the other examples then none of this proves a mass movement to get rid of "classical liberal" creators.

******

Can you name at least one example that even compares to the Roger Stern one?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 08:07:39 PM by Visitor-Q »

Visitor-Q

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2018, 10:16:11 PM »
Quote from: Upper_Krust link=topic=18916.msg372335#msg372335

...and I'm sure the ratio of Cosplay women (many who seem to like to dress up as the sexy girls from the 90's comics we earlier spoke about) to men is even higher than 1:1, probably 9:1.

BUT that doesn't translate into superhero comic book sales

Yeah, that's the entire crux of this debate--if women are very nearly into superhero movies as much as men are, why are superhero comics any different?

You theorized that it was the medium, but manga sales clearly contradict that; now you're making genre arguments again when the movies already contradicted that.


and while the box office demographics show women like going to see superhero movies I'd wager the sales of superhero dvds/blu-rays are HEAVILY skewed in favour of men.

You've gotta back that up, though, especially since the demographic information so far clearly contradicts your assertions. Then you'd have to confirm that women don't usually prefer other other ways to consume media, anyway (like streaming services, in which case you'd then have to analyze demographics there).


Manga (more often than not) doesn't tell the same stories as Western Superhero Comics.

But you originally made a pop psychology argument about women and the medium itself. Since manga clearly refutes that, you're relying on arguing the genre itself.

However, if you want to focus on genre, that takes us back to film and tv.

I disagree. I don't think you are taking into account the backbone of the Western superhero genre which is one of the 'Male Power Fantasy'.

Most Women do not share the same fantasy; in fact the biggest female fantasy is THE OPPOSITE of the male power fantasy. ie. Something like 50 Shades.

No offense, but this is a very bad argument that's unsubstantiated by actual psychology, pop culture consumption, and even the example you used.

(1) re: 50 shades, sexual fantasies do not equal life fantasies

(2) Even if they did, you realize that male sub web sites and videos outnumber male dom ones, right (porn being the biggest indicator of that tendency by sheer volume of consumption, of course)? Even in pop culture, there are endless examples of the dominant female archetype; hell, in comics, Claremont became the most popular writer in comics sublimating that fetish in his plotting and character dynamics.

(3) But, there is a difference, hence it's a cliche that many of the most sexually submissive men/women also happen to be dominant in other aspects of life. From what I hear, it even ends up playing that way in 50 Shades.

(4) All of that aside, the superhero fantasy is driven partly by the desire to overcome challenges, transcend one's own limitations, validate that you're better than what others may think of oneself (the typical secret identity dynamic), and action.

If you think those aren't things that women fantasize about, or impulses women aren't driven by, then I'll simply suggest that you read more peer reviewed psychology papers and surveys about female desires/fantasies/etc., or simply talk to more women about this stuff.


The Manga that women prefer does not cater to the Male Power Fantasy. Manga that does cater to the Male Power Fantasy is not any Manga women typically enjoy.

Naruto, Bleach, etc. have substantial female audiences (almost 50% female on average).






We see this in most Marvel comics today:

1. (Serious) Action is generally downplayed because women are more risk averse, although the badass Mary Sue will usually win in one hit.
2. There's often a goofy 'SITCOM Style' (which again softens any violence) and comedic tone to the books. The outcome is that the stakes don't matter...and on the rare instance that they do, writers can just return characters back to life next issue.
3. An overload of emotional validation of heroes - especially any female heroes.
4. A ridiculous amount of instances with characters eating - typically in books penned by female authors.

I'd also say there's something of a disconnect between the MCU movies and something like the Netflix Daredevil. Note how the MCU has moved into a more light-hearted, quip-heavy style, whereas Daredevil is far more serious. One is like a sitcom, the other like a serious drama.


Dude, season 1 of Jessica Jones is just as dark and serious as DD, and it has a huge female audience. Your assertions above about the cause of those tropes is completely unsubstantiated.

I do agree in general, however, that Western comics obviously have to diversify the genres that arw offered.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 10:33:35 PM by Visitor-Q »

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2018, 10:36:01 AM »
No prob.

The writing has some problems, but Bachalo is pretty much one of the only artists post-1966 to really capture at least some of the weird, abstract spirit of Ditko's style while still being unique--at least in the ongoing series. Even in the best Strange runs, the art has been way too conventional (and mostly mediocre and boring).

Agreed. I think the art in a Doctor Strange book is probably more important than in other titles.

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In order: Not really*, nope, elaborate on what you mean, and sure.

*There've been female versions of heroes,

...All of whom take on the NAME of the Male hero even if they already have their own identity.

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but I haven't encountered long term replacements outside of Thor and Iron Man (and, in the latter's case, Doctor Doom also replaced Tony


Doom is a villain...another minor trope in the pursuit of 'deconstructing'* male heroes is either:

- weaken them physically (Thor, Hawkeye)
- weaken them morally (Nazi Captain America, Doom Iron Man, Unworthy Thor)
- make them effeminate (Iceman, Human Torch, Spider-man, Hercules)
- make them young; and thus not yet men (Cyclops, Nova, Cho-Hulk)
- make them old; and thus past their prime (Old Man Logan, Old Man Hawkeye, Old Man Captain America)

*Code for unmaking

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in addition to Riri (while clearly suoerior to her), and Riri has been aided and mentored by the Tony Stark AI).

RiRi was said to be smarter than Tony (while demonstrably being a bit of an idiot).

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I also use "long term" loosely, since it's clear in both cases that the storylines were always meant to be finite (e.g. Jane's cancer from the spoilers I've read, Tony's coma and healing process--the plan with Riri is clearly to spin her off similar to War Machine [who'd also replaced Tony for awhile], Winter Soldier, and so on).

I'm personally not concerned by the growing number of female heroes, simply the treatment of the male ones and the forced political preaching.

A female Thor (name aside) could have been a comic I'd happily have gotten behind. But the execution of it was just a complete turn off from every angle.

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That's out of roughly 75 ongoing titles being published, and god knows how many mini series and one shots.

A quick tally of Marvel's monthly books (on Comichron) shows they have approx. 30 different hero or team books before taking into account Star Wars, Events and Duplicates.

..oh and 7 out of Marvel's top 8 selling books in July were #1 issues...and the other book in the top 8 was a #2. How's that for longevity.  :o

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2018/2018-07.html

type Marvel into the search parameter

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Except a lot of those supposed cuts are either non-existent or massive overreactions to already existing character faults, traits, or tropes that have nothing to do with emasculation.

In the grand scheme of things, it's all very minor.


Whether we agree or disagree as to how minor this all is; sales are in decline and forced political preaching within the comics is a big factor in that (in my opinion - you may disagree on that? ).

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The absolute worst of it started slowly ending 50 years ago, but in terms of societal change and consequences, 5 decades really isn't that long when it comes to cultural memory (for reference, just review the entirety of human history*).


5 Decades certainly isn't that long when you are looking for an excuse to play the victim.

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What's more, that's only the worst of it--if I use the standards these Comicsgaters use to nitpick and complain about male representation, women still had it worse than men even through the 90's than men have it now (i bet nitpicked examples for women would outnumber present-day male nitpicks at least 5 to 1).

Was there hyper-sexualization in the 90s - yes there was.

1. Was that one of the most profitable eras in comics - almost certainly (for a few reasons)
2. How many Cosplay girls dress up as these portrayals of characters - quite a lot

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*And, based on history, of course there are going to be militant subgroups within feminist and minority movements as a consequence of what happened to older generations that are still alive to remember it, even though they're a fraction of those overall movements.

I agree and you could argue that equality of opportunity having been achieved decades ago, modern (3rd wave) Feminism is a self-serving irrelevance at this point.

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There was no social media back then--apples and oranges as far as lynch mob fan bases go.


But my point was that the EDGY Leftist creators you mentioned were EMBRACED by the industry in the 80s DESPITE the pro-Republican bias of the Mainstream of the day. The opposite is happening today to Right Leaning Creators.

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Plenty of left wing creators across all creative industries get hounded in the present, however.

In today's industry seemingly the further Left you lean the more work you get, even if you have shown zero ability to sell books.

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That's all opinion and beside the point, which is that more openly trollish and extreme right wingers like Van Sciver were getting plenty of work during the 2007 - 2018 period when Dixon was pretending to be a conservative martyr.


I don't know exactly how 'extreme' their politics are? Does voting for Trump make you an 'extremist' now? Are there 60 million extremists in America today?

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You've moved the goal posts now, though--there's a difference between social media outrage mobs (which amount to what--two hundred people?) and editorial blacklisting. Chaykin ans Campbell still get mainstream work despite whatever controversies Twitter got temporarily mad about.

Brandon Graham wasn't hounded because of his politics--he has a trans-woman fetish and was accused of weird and abusive behavior toward them in the past. Wherever that ends up landing, that's a far cry from what you're talking about.


Left leaning Social media outrage mobs (many of whom have other comic pro's as cheerleaders and followers) influence editorial decisions.

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Don't know about Delay, but if he's like the other examples then none of this proves a mass movement to get rid of "classical liberal" creators.


I think he followed D&C on twitter (or something like that) and posted on twitter words to the effect "I've watched a bunch of his videos and he doesn't appear to be the sexist, racist, bigot people make him out to be." Then the SJWs came for him.

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Can you name at least one example that even compares to the Roger Stern one?

Ethan Van Sciver

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2018, 11:52:51 AM »
Yeah, that's the entire crux of this debate--if women are very nearly into superhero movies as much as men are, why are superhero comics any different?

You theorized that it was the medium, but manga sales clearly contradict that; now you're making genre arguments again when the movies already contradicted that.

My argument is that women are not as interested in the (Male) Power Fantasy theme (almost always with a strong physical component) that is the backbone of the Superhero Genre.

Just as men are not as interested in Romance Novels. Of course the Feminist Left has no interest in getting more men into Romance novels, whereas any male-dominated pastime MUST be infiltrated and ruined (with Leftist politics).

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You've gotta back that up, though, especially since the demographic information so far clearly contradicts your assertions. Then you'd have to confirm that women don't usually prefer other other ways to consume media, anyway (like streaming services, in which case you'd then have to analyze demographics there).

I agree that is pure theory without empirical data to back it up. BUT I'd be willing to bet you agree with me that most superhero dvd/blu-ray sales are made by males.

Let me ask you this...how many women do yo see on comic book forums? The answer is FEW if any. Yes bigger sites may have a few more but it is a TINY percentage of people on those forums.

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But you originally made a pop psychology argument about women and the medium itself. Since manga clearly refutes that, you're relying on arguing the genre itself.

I made the argument differentiating between Western Superhero Comics and Manga.
I also made an argument differentiating between being primarily visually led and language led.

If we want to make a list of the differences between Manga and Western Comics I'm sure we could arrive at some reasons for why its more palatable to women.

For instance its less realistically drawn, its often more 'cutesy'...just like Jason Aaron's current Thor.

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No offense, but this is a very bad argument that's unsubstantiated by actual psychology, pop culture consumption, and even the example you used.

(1) re: 50 shades, sexual fantasies do not equal life fantasies

(2) Even if they did, you realize that male sub web sites and videos outnumber male dom ones, right (porn being the biggest indicator of that tendency by sheer volume of consumption, of course)? Even in pop culture, there are endless examples of the dominant female archetype; hell, in comics, Claremont became the most popular writer in comics sublimating that fetish in his plotting and character dynamics.

(3) But, there is a difference, hence it's a cliche that many of the most sexually submissive men/women also happen to be dominant in other aspects of life. From what I hear, it even ends up playing that way in 50 Shades.

(4) All of that aside, the superhero fantasy is driven partly by the desire to overcome challenges, transcend one's own limitations, validate that you're better than what others may think of oneself (the typical secret identity dynamic), and action.

If you think those aren't things that women fantasize about, or impulses women aren't driven by, then I'll simply suggest that you read more peer reviewed psychology papers and surveys about female desires/fantasies/etc.,


I think you (and Marvel) are deluding yourself into thinking women are EVER going to be as interested in comics as men. Marvel targeting half their line towards women might bring in a few more transigent female readers, but it will lose more male readers than it gains.

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or simply talk to more women about this stuff.


One girlfriend is enough. ;)

I took her to see Deadpool 2 recently (she'd never seen a Superhero movie before*) and she loved it. Hasn't prompted her to start buying comics and dvds though.

*Most women just aren't that interested in that.  ::)

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Naruto, Bleach, etc. have substantial female audiences (almost 50% female on average).

What about Berserk, One Punch Man or Fist of the North Star?

I don't know enough about Naruto or Bleach (I have watched a few random episodes of Bleach) to comment on especially why those are popular among girls? Perhaps because characters are younger, less masculine, less violent than those I mentioned (and again this part is speculation).

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Dude, season 1 of Jessica Jones is just as dark and serious as DD, and it has a huge female audience.


Yes and its completely marketed and written as a Psychological Drama, not an action-packed Superhero show.

Women (in my experience) LOVE that sort of show. But if you try and do that as a comic book in the Marvel Comics Universe it just comes off as 'cartoonish'.

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Your assertions above about the cause of those tropes is completely unsubstantiated.

I don't think so. Most men and women don't prefer the same things or the same stories.

If I list: Action, Romance, Sports, Fashion, Cars and Soap Opera Melodrama you can easily identify which ones men are more interested in and which for women.

Occasionally we see some things that overlap: Horror, Mystery/Thrillers, Humour etc.

But Superhero Comics exist primarily (but not exclusively) in the Action genre. Abandoning or diluting that component of the genre will only weaken it until it becomes unrecognizable.

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I do agree in general, however, that Western comics obviously have to diversify the genres that arw offered.

The problem is how do you do that with a shared Universe without radically changing the whole thing because the tone of one comic impacts on the others - even before we take crossovers into account? Manga doesn't have the burden of a shared Universe.

The greatest strength of the MCU (the Shared Universe) in this case becomes the biggest weakness of the comics in regard telling stories primarily targeted towards women. In the past comics tackled this by creating A SEPARATE UNIVERSE or a separate or distinct LINE of comics.

The MCU is different from the Netflix MU which is different to the Marvel Comics.

With Marvel comics now sliding inexorably into the Sitcom Style parody of itself it might find some vanilla middle ground, but its clearly not even picking up enough female readers to compensate for the haemorrhaging of male readers.

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2018, 12:55:41 PM »
I don't get where you're getting this whole sitcom thing from. Comics have been like that more so than the the gritty Punisher stuff or the 90s extreme era. Just look at JLI, Young Justice, Early Captain Marvel (Shazam), super dickery, The Avengers hanging out with David Letterman, anytime there is an issue where it's just the characters playing football, baseball, poker, etc. 

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2018, 01:28:43 PM »
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What about "Ask me about my Feminist Agenda?"

You mean the joke cover mean to troll people who just seemed to hate Mockingbird having her own comic that had no real baring on the actual story itself?

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What about (a cucked) Spidey wearing an "Ask me about my Feminist Agenda" t-shirt...while sleeping on the couch as his 'girl' gets the bed?

I'm guessing you didn't read the comic. First, at that point they've been on one date and there hasn't been any implications they slept with each other. Second, Its her apartment and her bed. He's lost everything at this point which is pretty on course for a Spider-Man story. Third, he's wearing the shirt because he hasn't done his laundry and if you want to read into it Bobbi says "thats not a good look for you" which would imply him having a "feminist agenda" is exactly the wrong thing for him.

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- weaken them physically (Hawkeye)

How has Hawkeye been weakened physically?

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weaken them morally (Nazi Captain America, Doom Iron Man,)

Nazi Cap was always going to be a temporary thing and it took the universe being altered for it to happen. Then a cosmic being had to realize they were wrong and OG Cap was the best Cap. To me that reinforces the morals. Doom Iron Man is all about Victor realizing his own faults and looking towards Tony to find a new path because he always admired him. That again reinforces Iron Man's morals.

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make them effeminate (Iceman, Human Torch, Spider-man)
Not seeing any of this. Human Torch and Spider-Man's personality haven't really changed and the only change in Iceman is he's gay. gay=/= effeminate

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make them young; and thus not yet men (Cyclops, Nova, Cho-Hulk)

They didn't "make them young" Those are young characters. Sam Nova exist because Jeph Loeb has issues with his son dying. Cho-Hulk is not Banner Hulk.

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make them old; and thus past their prime (Old Man Logan, Old Man Hawkeye, Old Man Captain America)

OML is part the 616 because people loved that story, OMH is an alternative timeline Hawkeye. OMCA was always going to be temporary. And all of them were still badasses.

Also the act of de-aging or making a a character older is an old trope. You might as well say Kingdom Come is all about emasculating Superman and Batman.

Visitor-Q

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2018, 04:13:27 PM »
...All of whom take on the NAME of the Male hero even if they already have their own identity.

And?

(1) A new character using an existing moniker to build a following and then get spun off is a very old and common trope, so characterizing that as emasculating just because the trope now involves more women is very weird.

(2) Pretty much none of your examples were ever meant to be permanent replacements, including Thor (temporary replacements being another dirt common trope); in fact, like Miles Morales in the 616U, many of them didn't even replace the main hero temporarily, but existed simultaneously.

(3) Characters like Riri didn't even technically take the name (like War Machine, Riri went by another moniker, Ironheart).

Once again, even aside from all of the above, I have to ask how many of these examples there actually are.


Doom is a villain...another minor trope in the pursuit of 'deconstructing'* male heroes is either:

- weaken them physically (Thor, Hawkeye)
- weaken them morally (Nazi Captain America, Doom Iron Man, Unworthy Thor)
- make them effeminate (Iceman, Human Torch, Spider-man, Hercules)
- make them young; and thus not yet men (Cyclops, Nova, Cho-Hulk)
- make them old; and thus past their prime (Old Man Logan, Old Man Hawkeye, Old Man Captain America)

*Code for unmaking



Outside of Thor, which I'll grant you because I haven't read the whole thing, virtually all of those "examples" are common tropes that have existed since the Silver Age, and/or temporary stories that ended proving the opposite theme of what you're trying to claim (especially stuff like both of the Captain America arcs).

Declaring that these tropes are suddenly a company conspiracy to emasculate men is kind of unhinged.

For example, the Doom/Iron Man story is literally just another version of the "Magneto tries to reform and becomes the new Professor X" 80's storyline in Uncanny X-Men and New Mutants (except Magneto replaced the professor for much longer), and there's nothing morally compromised about Doom *in that role*, as you're trying to imply.

In fact, Bendis's entire run ended up being a love letter to how awesome and inspiring Tony Stark was and is--anyone who's read every issue through #600 would find this attempt to paint the run as an emasculation of the character absolutely ludicrous. Same with "Nazi Cap"--the climax of the story is almost literally "the one true Cap (the most awesome and pure hero ever) is needed to save the day".



RiRi was said to be smarter than Tony (while demonstrably being a bit of an idiot).

In the latest issue, Leonardo Da Vinci tells Riri she'll never out-Stark Stark and has to go in her own direction. Outside of Riri being a fawning Stark fangirl herself, the run is littered with references to Riri being a technical genius in the mold of Stark, but needing help with her sense of design (compared to Stark). Riri also needed the Tony Stark AI to guide, mentor, and help her repeatedly throughout the run.

Bendis went a little back and forth in a couple interviews regarding Riri's intelligence (sometimes saying she may be smarter, sometimes saying she actually was), but I can't recall such a truly definitive statement to that effect in the main Iron Man titles (if it happened in a non-main title by a random minor writer, that's outweighed by the main title).


I'm personally not concerned by the growing number of female heroes, simply the treatment of the male ones and the forced political preaching.


Except outside of Thor, I still haven't seen any concrete examples of what you're claiming, and definitely not in such a volume as to suggest some kind of widespread, industry or company wide problem.

A quick tally of Marvel's monthly books (on Comichron) shows they have approx. 30 different hero or team books before taking into account Star Wars, Events and Duplicates.

..oh and 7 out of Marvel's top 8 selling books in July were #1 issues...and the other book in the top 8 was a #2. How's that for longevity.  :o


https://www.marvel.com/comics/calendar/month/2018-07-01?byZone=marvel_site_zone&offset=0&tab=comic&formatType=issue&isDigital=0&byType=date&dateStart=2018-07-01&dateEnd=2018-07-31&orderBy=release_date+desc&limit=300&count=17

They published 94 titles in July--if you remove the Star Wars and reprint stuff, that's about 74 superhero books.

I was mistaken about the "ongoing", but that's really an arbitrary distinction anyway regarding what we're talking about. Whether 20 or 30 of those books cycle every couple of months, the literally thousands of pages Marvel prints a month only emphasizes the dearth of your examples.


Whether we agree or disagree as to how minor this all is; sales are in decline and forced political preaching within the comics is a big factor in that (in my opinion - you may disagree on that? ).

Of course I do. If you look at actual units sold (which is a much better indicator of audience size than dollars, given the constant price increases to offset costs, inflation, and the very audience shrinkage we're talking about), sales have been up and down in much this manner since 1996. Things were this low for Marvel in the early 00's and early 10's, before your claimed 2016 trends.

Funny that things started spiking units-wise after that, when characters like Miles Morales, Ms Marvel, etc. were being introduced, a counter-correlation to the one you want to focus on.


5 Decades certainly isn't that long when you are looking for an excuse to play the victim.


Are you seriously making that statement while defending Comicsgaters, a group that not only whines about what's mostly overblown imagined slights against men, but doesn't even have a historical basis of oppression to at least partially justify their attitude?




Was there hyper-sexualization in the 90s - yes there was.

1. Was that one of the most profitable eras in comics - almost certainly (for a few reasons)
2. How many Cosplay girls dress up as these portrayals of characters - quite a lot

Yeah, the biggest (though not only) reason for those sales by far being the same audience buying an absurd number of copies of the same issues, stupidly thinking they were making investments (not even understanding basic scarcity economics)--or do you think there were 8 million people who actually bought X-Men #1? From the market research at the time, there probably weren't even more than 100's of thousands. When those idiots realized their mistake and went back to buying normally, the market imploded.

Also, not sure what the cosplay non-sequitur has to do with how many slights against women there were vs how many slights against men there are now, especially given Comicsgaters ludicrous standards for establishing slights.


But my point was that the EDGY Leftist creators you mentioned were EMBRACED by the industry in the 80s DESPITE the pro-Republican bias of the Mainstream of the day. The opposite is happening today to Right Leaning Creators.

They got plenty of angry right wing mail--the difference was that those right wing fans couldn't organize and lynch mob the way social media allows now.


In today's industry seemingly the further Left you lean the more work you get, even if you have shown zero ability to sell books.

Barely anyone sells well now--show me an example of a right wing creator selling well in the direct market and NOT getting work or being blacklisted.


Left leaning Social media outrage mobs (many of whom have other comic pro's as cheerleaders and followers) influence editorial decisions.

Two of your 4 examples still get work at Marvel and DC. One of them was always Image and indi based, and was lynch mobbed for alleged abuse and trans-women fetishes, not his personal politics.

So you're, at best, 1 for 4 proving this point.



I think he followed D&C on twitter (or something like that) and posted on twitter words to the effect "I've watched a bunch of his videos and he doesn't appear to be the sexist, racist, bigot people make him out to be." Then the SJWs came for him.

Elaborate. Was he getting Marvel and DC work before that and suddenly fired or pushed off books?


Ethan Van Sciver


Roger Stern was an apolitical and extremely successful writer who was fired immediately AND blacklisted for objecting to writing one of Marvel's only black female heroes out of character as incompetent.

Ethan Van Sciver was given exclusive contracts by DC for 10 years through a few months ago, despite being very political and intentionally trolling left wingers. He has been ambivalent about why he didn't renew his DC contract, but it may have to do with the amount of money he stands to make self-publishing (I believe he's already raised a record breaking 500K for a single 48-page Cyberfrog story, which is certainly more than he could make on a single book via something like Vertigo); he definitely hasn't said that his pal Geoff Johns let him go.

I should also point out that one of the things he got in trouble for--his My Struggles Nazi parody sketchbook with Hitler Sinestro--would have certainly gotten him fired under Stan Lee or Jim Shooter (and Jack Kirby would've probably punched him in the mouth), even if they understood the ironic intent like I do.

How are those two situations even remotely the same?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 06:11:58 PM by Visitor-Q »

Visitor-Q

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2018, 09:54:12 PM »
My argument is that women are not as interested in the (Male) Power Fantasy theme (almost always with a strong physical component) that is the backbone of the Superhero Genre.

Specifically, you're arguing that females making up 10% of the superhero comic audience would be perfectly normal based on the genre's intrinsic qualities, despite the fact that 40% - 45% of superhero movie audiences are female (with similar rates for superhero TV shows).

Obviously, there's nothing intrinsic to the genre itself that would turn off as many women as Marvel, DC, and Image publishing have (as opposed to their Hollywood counterparts). The genre should skew toward males, but only slightly--there's a huge untapped female audience Western publishers have failed to capture.

You then moved on to medium explanations; when I pointed out that 37 - 40% (and growing) of all comic readers are women, you pointed out that this was because of manga, but manga is just set of styles and techniques for doing comics (a set of styles and techniques Western artists have largely adopted to varying extents, anyway, to massive popularity); so, obviously, there's nothing intrinsic to comic books as a medium that should turn off women.

After those bases were covered, you haven't really come up with a compelling argument that addresses the above.


Just as men are not as interested in Romance Novels. Of course the Feminist Left has no interest in getting more men into Romance novels, whereas any male-dominated pastime MUST be infiltrated and ruined (with Leftist politics).

Men are also not interested in "Romance Novels" for cultural reasons. When you remove the stigma of the genre label and look at how many male oriented stories are basically just about a guy doing things to woo and get a girl in movies, tv, and literature through the centuries that avoids the label, you'd realize how popular the male romance genre really is. Hemingway tried to be one of the manliest writers there was, and all of his best books were basically romances first and foremost, with a literary veneer and manly backdrops/subplots.

Romantic stories (in both the broader classic and modern relationship-oriented sense) are a cash cow. Book companies don't give a crap about the label as long as it sells.


I agree that is pure theory without empirical data to back it up. BUT I'd be willing to bet you agree with me that most superhero dvd/blu-ray sales are made by males.


Maybe, maybe not. But if women tend to stream more than men, that'd be kind of a useless metric. You have to look at consumption across all channels.


Let me ask you this...how many women do yo see on comic book forums? The answer is FEW if any. Yes bigger sites may have a few more but it is a TINY percentage of people on those forums.

C'mon, forums are a dying, fringe social media format. Most of them are also 4-chan-esque cesspools that resemble the comic shops that turn women off in the first place.

Non-anecdotally, Facebook revealed a few years ago that 46% of comic fans using their platform are women (comic fans = liking comic book related pages, groups, etc.). That's a hell of a lot more data points, and far more concrete than the anecdotal point you're trying to make.


I made the argument differentiating between Western Superhero Comics and Manga.
I also made an argument differentiating between being primarily visually led and language led.

If we want to make a list of the differences between Manga and Western Comics I'm sure we could arrive at some reasons for why its more palatable to women.

For instance its less realistically drawn, its often more 'cutesy'...just like Jason Aaron's current Thor.


Less realistically drawn comic art tends to be more popular and attractive across all genders and genres. This is something Scott McCloud pointed out in Understanding Comics 20 years ago. People like Alex Raymond, Hal Foster, Neal Adams, etc. get respect and popularity in their own right, but a majority of the most popular strips and titles throughout the decades have tended to lean toward more stylized abstraction and cartooniness (e.g. a million examples in comic strips, Marvel vs DC in the 60's , Art Adams, Michael Golden, Walt Simonson, Todd McFarlane, Romita Jr when he really took off, Mauderia in the 90's, a million other examples).

Manga itself, of course, is extremely popular with boys and men, too.

Trying to claim that cartoonier styles are the cause of female pressures is, frankly, nuts.


I think you (and Marvel) are deluding yourself into thinking women are EVER going to be as interested in comics as men. Marvel targeting half their line towards women might bring in a few more transigent female readers, but it will lose more male readers than it gains.

If you're talking "comics" as a whole, history has already proven you wrong. Maybe women won't be quite "as" interested, but it's close enough.


One girlfriend is enough. ;)

I took her to see Deadpool 2 recently (she'd never seen a Superhero movie before*) and she loved it. Hasn't prompted her to start buying comics and dvds though.


I've personally gotten plenty of girlfriends into comics. They'll never visit a comic shop, but that's what Barnes and Noble and Amazon are for.


What about Berserk, One Punch Man or Fist of the North Star?

Beats me, but Berserk and Fist are pretty extreme examples of male oriented manga/anime. We were discussing male oriented genres in general.


I don't know enough about Naruto or Bleach (I have watched a few random episodes of Bleach) to comment on especially why those are popular among girls? Perhaps because characters are younger, less masculine, less violent than those I mentioned (and again this part is speculation).

Naruto and Bleach are very action oriented--just as much (sometimes more so) than most superhero titles have been, no matter what decade you chose. The characters in both are young, but the main character in Bleach is not what you'd call less masculine.   


Yes and its completely marketed and written as a Psychological Drama, not an action-packed Superhero show.

It wasn't as action packed as DD, but it wasn't exactly a Mindhunter-esque show, either. There were plenty of action scenes. DD, of course, was also popular with women in its own right.

The point is, plenty of women love dark shit, too--conversely, plenty of men like the "sitcom" trends you seem to loathe.


I don't think so. Most men and women don't prefer the same things or the same stories.

If I list: Action, Romance, Sports, Fashion, Cars and Soap Opera Melodrama you can easily identify which ones men are more interested in and which for women.


Since you mentioned Netflix, they have access to completely comprehensive viewer behaviors to an extent that TV execs couldn't dream of having even 20 years ago, and their entire business is oriented toward getting viewers to watch THE NEXT SHOW OR MOVIE that will keep them hooked and subscribed.

You know they found that trying to push content by demographics like sex ended up being complete garbage, right, and only got them so far? That the best way to predict tastes and push addictive content was to ignore all of those assumptions and focus on commonalities across those lines? And that their subscriber base grew as a direct result?

Yeah, demographics do predict tendencies to a certain extent, but a lot of the differences between those demos are less significant than you think, because people in general are more similar than you're suggesting. Marvel and DC have historically really dropped the ball on capturing the potential female audience out there.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 10:15:34 PM by Visitor-Q »

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2018, 10:34:15 PM »
The cartoons/manga style has been popular in the US comic market for like two decades going back to the Madurira/Bachalo/Ramos early years.

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2018, 02:16:30 PM »
Hey guys,

My Internet was wonky for a day there, fine now thankfully.

I'll get to these replies tomorrow (busy tonight), great discussion.

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #70 on: August 17, 2018, 10:20:06 AM »
I don't get where you're getting this whole sitcom thing from.

Current Marvel comics.

My guess is this is the (House) style they have settled on they best think caters to women while not completely alienating all men. Its no stakes, low T, maximum quippage and 'sitcom-speak'.

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Comics have been like that more so than the the gritty Punisher stuff or the 90s extreme era.

I disagree. Contemporary Marvel seems to be sliding into a style that tries to mimic the movies BUT fails to understand that the humour is only one element to those movies.

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Just look at JLI, Young Justice, Early Captain Marvel (Shazam), super dickery, The Avengers hanging out with David Letterman, anytime there is an issue where it's just the characters playing football, baseball, poker, etc.

I'm not saying there has never been comics with light-hearted moments, issues or styles. Nor am I saying all comics; even from Marvel, are heading down that road (current Hulk and Cap for instance are playing it straight). But what I am seeing is an overload of this sitcom-style in a large percentage of books including (but not limited to) virtually every female lead superhero title Marvel puts out. If its almost every female lead and say (for the sake of argument) half the male leads then its by far the dominant style of the Marvel Comics Universe.

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #71 on: August 17, 2018, 11:22:43 AM »
You mean the joke cover mean to troll people who just seemed to hate Mockingbird having her own comic that had no real baring on the actual story itself?

I mean the joke cover meant to cover (no pun intended) that books horrible sales* due to the writer's political preaching within.

*By pointing the finger at everyone else while she played the victim card after she got criticism for the book.

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I'm guessing you didn't read the comic. First, at that point they've been on one date and there hasn't been any implications they slept with each other. Second, Its her apartment and her bed. He's lost everything at this point which is pretty on course for a Spider-Man story. Third, he's wearing the shirt because he hasn't done his laundry and if you want to read into it Bobbi says "thats not a good look for you" which would imply him having a "feminist agenda" is exactly the wrong thing for him.


I did read the story and I understand how the writer set things up; the outcome of which was the further emasculation of Peter Parker.

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How has Hawkeye been weakened physically?

The previous reviews of Hawkeye issues I've seen have Hawkeye (former leader of the Avengers AND Thunderbolts) act like an inexperienced, cowardly, (sitcom) butt of the joke character in total deferment to Kate Bishop (ie. the 20 y/o who is better at him at everything). Not only that but Hawkeye is drawn like an emaciated heroin addict who would lose an arm-wrestling contest to Aunt May.

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Nazi Cap was always going to be a temporary thing and it took the universe being altered for it to happen. Then a cosmic being had to realize they were wrong and OG Cap was the best Cap. To me that reinforces the morals.


Except that the 'new' Cap is a COPY and not the original who now will forever be Hydra Cap.

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Doom Iron Man is all about Victor realizing his own faults and looking towards Tony to find a new path because he always admired him. That again reinforces Iron Man's morals.

REPLACING a hero with a villain is giving us a LESS MORAL Interpretation of the original. That's not to say 'face turns' can't make for good books, but when they REPLACE heroes it dilutes what the original stood for.

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Not seeing any of this. Human Torch and Spider-Man's personality haven't really changed and the only change in Iceman is he's gay. gay=/= effeminate.

I've seen issues where Human Torch and Spidey were getting on like Sitcom lovers.

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They didn't "make them young" Those are young characters. Sam Nova exist because Jeph Loeb has issues with his son dying. Cho-Hulk is not Banner Hulk.

Exactly we were given:

- Young Cyclops - after they made Adult Hero Cyclops A VILLAIN AND KILLED HIM OFF.
- Young Cho-Hulk - who became the defacto male Hulk after they made Adult (sometime) Hero Hulk A POTENTIAL VILLAIN AND KILLED HIM OFF...oh and then his name was stolen by She-Hulk BECAUSE POLITICS.
- Young Nova - after Adult Nova Richard Ryder was KILLED OFF, brought back, subsequently made a threat (Cancerverse portal) then sidelined.

How do they handle this at DC? Well they create a NEW TITLE (such as the Chinese Superman or Green Lanterns) that doesn't REPLACE the existing Characters its based upon.

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OML is part the 616 because people loved that story, OMH is an alternative timeline Hawkeye. OMCA was always going to be temporary. And all of them were still badasses.

Also the act of de-aging or making a a character older is an old trope. You might as well say Kingdom Come is all about emasculating Superman and Batman.

I don't have a problem with aging/de-aging characters in moderation and/or as alternate what if storylines. But it just so happened that at Marvel THESE BECAME THE DEFACTO REPRESENTATIONS REPLACING MULTIPLE CHARACTERS ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

Kingdom Come (an alternate future mini-series) didn't REPLACE Superman or Batman.

But we have seen Cap, Tony, Hulk, Thor, Hawkeye, Wolverine, Cyclops, Nova (and others I'm probably forgetting) all replaced at the same time. Some replaced with women, some with older versions, some with younger versions.

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2018, 12:23:48 PM »
...All of whom take on the NAME of the Male hero even if they already have their own identity.

And?

Its social reprogramming.

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(1) A new character using an existing moniker to build a following and then get spun off is a very old and common trope, so characterizing that as emasculating just because the trope now involves more women is very weird.

Why did She-Hulk NEED to be called Hulk? Same with Hawkeye, Wolverine, Thor, Iron Man etc.

Why is She-Hulk drawn masculine now? Same with Captain Marvel among others.

Why do we see a push to give women male names in Entertainment? Most notably Star Trek and Star Wars.

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(2) Pretty much none of your examples were ever meant to be permanent replacements, including Thor (temporary replacements being another dirt common trope); in fact, like Miles Morales in the 616U, many of them didn't even replace the main hero temporarily, but existed simultaneously.

By changing SO many characters SIMULTANEOUSLY you inexorably change the Marvel Universe itself.

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(3) Characters like Riri didn't even technically take the name (like War Machine, Riri went by another moniker, Ironheart).

As I recall RiRi's name 'change' came after a bit of an outcry. Bendis initially stated she WAS Iron Man.

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Once again, even aside from all of the above, I have to ask how many of these examples there actually are.

Many of the primary male character led titles in the Marvel Comics Universe were replaced with diversified knock-offs, AT THE SAME TIME.

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Outside of Thor, which I'll grant you because I haven't read the whole thing, virtually all of those "examples" are common tropes that have existed since the Silver Age, and/or temporary stories that ended proving the opposite theme of what you're trying to claim (especially stuff like both of the Captain America arcs).

Declaring that these tropes are suddenly a company conspiracy to emasculate men is kind of unhinged.

If they take a Large Number of Male characters and SIMULTANEOUSLY change them so they are either:

Replaced by a woman, replaced by a villain, emasculated, de-aged or aged HOW IS THAT NOT AN AGENDA?

Are you saying its just coincidence when its obviously something they have done on purpose?

I mean we can argue the IMPACT its having but we can't really argue its happening at all because it clearly is.

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For example, the Doom/Iron Man story is literally just another version of the "Magneto tries to reform and becomes the new Professor X" 80's storyline in Uncanny X-Men and New Mutants (except Magneto replaced the professor for much longer), and there's nothing morally compromised about Doom *in that role*, as you're trying to imply.

In fact, Bendis's entire run ended up being a love letter to how awesome and inspiring Tony Stark was and is--anyone who's read every issue through #600 would find this attempt to paint the run as an emasculation of the character absolutely ludicrous.


Bendis was such a 'fan' of Iron Man he 'killed him off' and replaced him with a villain and a teenage Black Girl.

Of course Bendis just seems one of a long line of 'fans' who love the characters they get to write so much they change everything about them while injecting their own Political Preaching.  ::)

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Same with "Nazi Cap"--the climax of the story is almost literally "the one true Cap (the most awesome and pure hero ever) is needed to save the day".

Except the Nazi one WAS the true one all along and the 'new' Cap is some Cosmic Cube Slice Copy with morality.

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In the latest issue, Leonardo Da Vinci tells Riri she'll never out-Stark Stark and has to go in her own direction. Outside of Riri being a fawning Stark fangirl herself, the run is littered with references to Riri being a technical genius in the mold of Stark, but needing help with her sense of design (compared to Stark). Riri also needed the Tony Stark AI to guide, mentor, and help her repeatedly throughout the run.

RiRi is an abysmal character and terrible role model who is constantly fawned over by everyone else in the Marvel Universe, despite a litany of bad choices (stealing her original armour, invading and taking over a foreign country etc.)

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Bendis went a little back and forth in a couple interviews regarding Riri's intelligence (sometimes saying she may be smarter, sometimes saying she actually was), but I can't recall such a truly definitive statement to that effect in the main Iron Man titles (if it happened in a non-main title by a random minor writer, that's outweighed by the main title).


Doesn't matter how smart he says a character is...when they act like an emotionless idiot more often than not.

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Except outside of Thor, I still haven't seen any concrete examples of what you're claiming, and definitely not in such a volume as to suggest some kind of widespread, industry or company wide problem.

If I wasn't following Comicsgate then I'm sure I'd probably feel the same way as you.

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..oh and 7 out of Marvel's top 8 selling books in July were #1 issues...and the other book in the top 8 was a #2. How's that for longevity.  :o

Any comment on this?

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They published 94 titles in July--if you remove the Star Wars and reprint stuff, that's about 74 superhero books.

I was mistaken about the "ongoing", but that's really an arbitrary distinction anyway regarding what we're talking about. Whether 20 or 30 of those books cycle every couple of months, the literally thousands of pages Marvel prints a month only emphasizes the dearth of your examples.


What heroes am I missing (I probably missed one or two)?

Ant Man & The Wasp
Avengers
Cable
Captain America
Captain Marvel
Champions
Daredevil
Deadpool
Domino
Dr Strange
Exiles
Ghost Rider (Cosmic)
Hulk
Iron man
Moon Girl
Moon Knight
Mr & Mrs X
Ms Marvel
New Mutants
Multiple Man
Old Man Hawkeye
Old Man Logan
Punisher
Runaways
Scarlet Spider
Sentry
Spider-man (3 books)
Spider-Gwen
Squirrel Girl
Thing/Torch
Venom
Weapon-H
Weapon-X
X-23
X-men (3 teams)

That's 37 counting X-Men as 3, there are a few team ups (Squirrel Girl + Ms Marvel, Deadpool + Spidey). Some event mini-series (Hunt for Wolvie, Infinity something), but that seems to encapsulate all the heroes.

In fairness that list is notably different than one I tallied in 2016/2017 which had notably higher female representation. Interesting, I wonder are Marvel starting to listen to Retailers a little...?

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Of course I do. If you look at actual units sold (which is a much better indicator of audience size than dollars, given the constant price increases to offset costs, inflation, and the very audience shrinkage we're talking about), sales have been up and down in much this manner since 1996. Things were this low for Marvel in the early 00's and early 10's, before your claimed 2016 trends.

Funny that things started spiking units-wise after that, when characters like Miles Morales, Ms Marvel, etc. were being introduced, a counter-correlation to the one you want to focus on.

If things are so rosy right now why are more and more comic shops going out of business? One source I have seen states half of all comic shops in North America have closed since 2012 and while that might be an exaggeration its clear that things are all going one way.

Of course Marvel weren't listening to Retailers last year?

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/2017-year-almost-everything-went-wrong-marvel-comics-1070616

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Are you seriously making that statement while defending Comicsgaters, a group that not only whines about what's mostly overblown imagined slights against men, but doesn't even have a historical basis of oppression to at least partially justify their attitude?

Comisgaters are complaining about whats happening here and now, not about what was happening 60 years ago.

...and whats happening here and now is that many fans are fed up with the politics in their comics (among other issues in fairness) and just being turned off by it and not buying.

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Yeah, the biggest (though not only) reason for those sales by far being the same audience buying an absurd number of copies of the same issues, stupidly thinking they were making investments (not even understanding basic scarcity economics)--or do you think there were 8 million people who actually bought X-Men #1? From the market research at the time, there probably weren't even more than 100's of thousands. When those idiots realized their mistake and went back to buying normally, the market imploded.

Well we know that Speculators caused that crash and ironically its modern speculators that Marvel Comics seems to court with its continual stream of #1 releases (about 10 each month) while simultaneously milking collectors for all their worth with Variant Covers up the wazoo while holding Retailers to ransom with Quotas to get certain variant covers all while overshipping.

The current comics industry is not in a healthy state.

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Also, not sure what the cosplay non-sequitur has to do with how many slights against women there were vs how many slights against men there are now, especially given Comicsgaters ludicrous standards for establishing slights.

I'm using it to counter the idea that women were turned off by the hyper-sexualization of the 90s.

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They got plenty of angry right wing mail--the difference was that those right wing fans couldn't organize and lynch mob the way social media allows now.


'Luckily' then that the current Industry only panders to Left Wing Lynch Mobs on social media...for anyone else with a problem there is always Comicsgate.

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Barely anyone sells well now--show me an example of a right wing creator selling well in the direct market and NOT getting work or being blacklisted.

There are no right wing creators in the direct market; they've all moved to self-publishing.

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Two of your 4 examples still get work at Marvel and DC. One of them was always Image and indi based, and was lynch mobbed for alleged abuse and trans-women fetishes, not his personal politics.

So you're, at best, 1 for 4 proving this point.

The point was to show how the Left will hound its own for the slightest transgression.

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Elaborate. Was he getting Marvel and DC work before that and suddenly fired or pushed off books?

AFAIK it was Image.

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Roger Stern was an apolitical and extremely successful writer who was fired immediately AND blacklisted for objecting to writing one of Marvel's only black female heroes out of character as incompetent.


...and what did Marvel DO with that character once he was blacklisted?

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Ethan Van Sciver was given exclusive contracts by DC for 10 years through a few months ago, despite being very political and intentionally trolling left wingers.


So EVS 'trolling' left wingers is BAD, but dozens of Industry professionals outright attacking Republicans is what...okay?

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He has been ambivalent about why he didn't renew his DC contract, but it may have to do with the amount of money he stands to make self-publishing (I believe he's already raised a record breaking 500K for a single 48-page Cyberfrog story, which is certainly more than he could make on a single book via something like Vertigo); he definitely hasn't said that his pal Geoff Johns let him go.

He didn't know he would make that money before he left. He gambled and won.

But that begs the question WHY do you think he can make that amount of money self-publishing at a time when the Industry is clearly suffering? Could it be the outright alienation many comic fans feel by the mainstream companies?

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I should also point out that one of the things he got in trouble for--his My Struggles Nazi parody sketchbook with Hitler Sinestro--would have certainly gotten him fired under Stan Lee or Jim Shooter (and Jack Kirby would've probably punched him in the mouth), even if they understood the ironic intent like I do.


Total and utter balls, I detest this sort of over-reacting, hypocritical* nonsense. Jack Kirby punched 'REAL' Nazis. People are not automatically Nazis just because they disagree with the Left or tell a fucking joke. Yes I know that's not what the Left wants you to hear but its the truth.

*Hypocritical as in James Gunn and the Left's support of him.

Note that he portrayed Sinestro (a villain as close to 'Space Hitler' as you'll get) under the title "My Struggle" as a joke on one sketchbook and also had another Sketchbook that was Communist themed. Neither of which makes him a Nazi or a Commie.

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How are those two situations even remotely the same?

Roger Stern stood up for the rights of how he felt a character should be portrayed, EVS stood up for the his own right (and those of other people) to vote Republican and not be ostracised from the industry.

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2018, 01:26:14 PM »
Specifically, you're arguing that females making up 10% of the superhero comic audience would be perfectly normal based on the genre's intrinsic qualities, despite the fact that 40% - 45% of superhero movie audiences are female (with similar rates for superhero TV shows).

Yes that's exactly what I am arguing. Movies and comics are not the same thing.

Guys probably make up a large percentage of cinema goers who watch Rom-Coms, that doesn't mean guys are interested in Romance Novels.

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Obviously, there's nothing intrinsic to the genre itself that would turn off as many women as Marvel, DC, and Image publishing have (as opposed to their Hollywood counterparts). The genre should skew toward males, but only slightly--there's a huge untapped female audience Western publishers have failed to capture.

Women are not as interested in Action/Conflict (the backbone of the Superhero genre).

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You then moved on to medium explanations; when I pointed out that 37 - 40% (and growing) of all comic readers are women, you pointed out that this was because of manga, but manga is just set of styles and techniques for doing comics (a set of styles and techniques Western artists have largely adopted to varying extents, anyway, to massive popularity); so, obviously, there's nothing intrinsic to comic books as a medium that should turn off women.

Manga can differ wildly from book to book (Women do not like every Manga). Comics within a SHARED UNIVERSE cannot. One book impacts the rest - especially given the high number of crossovers and guest appearances in Marvel books.

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After those bases were covered, you haven't really come up with a compelling argument that addresses the above.


I have, see above.

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Men are also not interested in "Romance Novels" for cultural reasons. When you remove the stigma of the genre label and look at how many male oriented stories are basically just about a guy doing things to woo and get a girl in movies, tv, and literature through the centuries that avoids the label, you'd realize how popular the male romance genre really is. Hemingway tried to be one of the manliest writers there was, and all of his best books were basically romances first and foremost, with a literary veneer and manly backdrops/subplots.

You (and Marvel) seem to have the same sort of mindset where you believe everything needs to be liked equally by men and women.

The problem is that when you try to FORCE people to LIKE something, invariably you end up pushing them away.

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Romantic stories (in both the broader classic and modern relationship-oriented sense) are a cash cow. Book companies don't give a crap about the label as long as it sells.


In my opinion you can't have your cake and eat it here. You simply can't have a Shared Universe that caters to both men and women.

You can have it so that you can cater to men AND THEN some women will still like it (and vice versa).

Alternately you can have some sort of Sitcom-Style middle ground that is a watered down, no stakes Universe that won't really excite anyone.

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Maybe, maybe not. But if women tend to stream more than men, that'd be kind of a useless metric. You have to look at consumption across all channels.


If it was notably moving more books then we'd hear about it. Obviously it isn't.

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C'mon, forums are a dying, fringe social media format. Most of them are also 4-chan-esque cesspools that resemble the comic shops that turn women off in the first place.

A Forum's well-being is inexorably linked to the Comics Industry itself.

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Non-anecdotally, Facebook revealed a few years ago that 46% of comic fans using their platform are women (comic fans = liking comic book related pages, groups, etc.). That's a hell of a lot more data points, and far more concrete than the anecdotal point you're trying to make.

I remember that and its never translated into comic sales so its utter irrelevance. "Comic fans" in that sense OBVIOUSLY doesn't mean comic buying fans. It probably takes account of people 'liking' a pic of Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman or other 'comic related' stuff like that.

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Less realistically drawn comic art tends to be more popular and attractive across all genders and genres. This is something Scott McCloud pointed out in Understanding Comics 20 years ago. People like Alex Raymond, Hal Foster, Neal Adams, etc. get respect and popularity in their own right, but a majority of the most popular strips and titles throughout the decades have tended to lean toward more stylized abstraction and cartooniness (e.g. a million examples in comic strips, Marvel vs DC in the 60's , Art Adams, Michael Golden, Walt Simonson, Todd McFarlane, Romita Jr when he really took off, Mauderia in the 90's, a million other examples).


Personally I love Kirby's art and the abstract style, but I have never been a fan of manga and the outright cartoonish style some of its books employ.

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Manga itself, of course, is extremely popular with boys and men, too.

Absolutely, probably on a title by title basis though.

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Trying to claim that cartoonier styles are the cause of female pressures is, frankly, nuts.

No, my claim is that a less realistic style coupled with black and white artwork means that any violence portrayed is less visceral. We know that women are more risk averse than men so if someone does get punched then having cutesy stars circle their heads is less visceral than a spray of blood.

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If you're talking "comics" as a whole, history has already proven you wrong. Maybe women won't be quite "as" interested, but it's close enough.

Well if Marvel continues to shrink the Industry down and heamorrhage male readers to cater to some 'massive' phantom female comic buying audience then eventually the number of men and women buying comics will be 50/50. Unfortunately by that point their top books will be selling under 10,000.

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I've personally gotten plenty of girlfriends into comics. They'll never visit a comic shop, but that's what Barnes and Noble and Amazon are for.

I've never felt the need to get girlfriends into comics, just bed.  ;)

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Beats me, but Berserk and Fist are pretty extreme examples of male oriented manga/anime. We were discussing male oriented genres in general.

Exactly, Manga can get away with having male orientated manga as well as female orientated books and those for everyone. Marvel CAN'T DO THAT because of the Shared Universe.

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Naruto and Bleach are very action oriented--just as much (sometimes more so) than most superhero titles have been, no matter what decade you chose. The characters in both are young, but the main character in Bleach is not what you'd call less masculine.

 
I'll defer to you on Naruto and Bleach, though my casual knowledge of Bleach, is "Teen Hero" ie. No Muscles.

Contrast that with FOTNS, Dragonball, Berserk, OPM etc.

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It wasn't as action packed as DD, but it wasn't exactly a Mindhunter-esque show, either. There were plenty of action scenes.

It barely had action at all, her villain wasn't a physical threat. It had plenty of 'suspense' scenes, and maybe the odd chase but it was incredibly light on action - which in itself is not a negative. But highlights how it better appealed to women.

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DD, of course, was also popular with women in its own right.

Yet didn't create a groundswell of female Daredevil comic readers...go figure.

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The point is, plenty of women love dark shit, too--conversely, plenty of men like the "sitcom" trends you seem to loathe.

Absolutely because (as I pointed out): Horror, Thrillers and Comedy are genre's that men and women seem to like equally.

My point about Marvel's Sitcom Style is that when comedy overpowers drama everything becomes a joke...the hero, the villain, the situation, the stakes just become meaningless, death becomes meaningless so fights are meaningless.

Modern Marvel's sitcom style is unmaking the Marvel Universe.

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Since you mentioned Netflix, they have access to completely comprehensive viewer behaviors to an extent that TV execs couldn't dream of having even 20 years ago, and their entire business is oriented toward getting viewers to watch THE NEXT SHOW OR MOVIE that will keep them hooked and subscribed.

You know they found that trying to push content by demographics like sex ended up being complete garbage, right, and only got them so far? That the best way to predict tastes and push addictive content was to ignore all of those assumptions and focus on commonalities across those lines? And that their subscriber base grew as a direct result?

Yeah, demographics do predict tendencies to a certain extent, but a lot of the differences between those demos are less significant than you think, because people in general are more similar than you're suggesting.


You can't treat TV (or Movies) like they are Comic Books. Its not the same thing.

Similarly, as Disney is finding out, marketing Star Wars to women doesn't sell more Action Figures, it sells FAR less.

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Marvel and DC have historically really dropped the ball on capturing the potential female audience out there.

There is no such audience for Western Superhero Comics and there can't be while you have a Shared Universe.

The more they cater the comics to women the more male readers abandon ship and at a faster rate than any new readers jump onboard. Marvel has made its bed (Social Justice) and now it has to lie in it.

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2018, 01:28:25 PM »
The cartoons/manga style has been popular in the US comic market for like two decades going back to the Madurira/Bachalo/Ramos early years.

There was a BIG difference between Western-ised 'Manga' of someone like Joe Mad and ACTUAL Manga.