Herochat

What has Aaron done?

Upper_Krust

  • *****
  • 1369
  • +22/-55
    • View Profile
Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #255 on: September 24, 2018, 04:34:52 PM »
Hey V-Q...I'm going to be busy for the next 2-3 days. I'll try and squeeze in another reply tonight but if not I might be AWOL til Friday. Just a heads up.

Dalek

  • *****
  • 1281
  • +5/-3
    • View Profile
Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #256 on: September 24, 2018, 09:24:01 PM »
So I have been following this thread and honestly at this point I have to ask outside of referencing The Jane Thor run which has a lot of problems but is an outlier even in the career of that one writer does this whole movement have any points that have not been debunked by now?

It hasn't been debunked because they have enough material to comment upon and the continued 'faux outrage' of creators on twitter (stepped up recently) highlights that this is almost exclusively a divide on political grounds.

Visior Q already addressed this but that is not how basic debating logic works. If almost every point brought up by a certain source has been wrong or exaggerated to the point of being invalid as a legitimate critique then that source stops being trustworthy unless new evidence is provided to show that it is indeed worth addressing

Quote
The whole "comics are dying" thing has been pretty clearly shown to be a massive example of exaggeration.

Well sales are down and comic stores are closing. So while saying Comics are Dying IS an exaggeration, the term is not an end state in and of itself.

Comic stores dying is not comics dying. Comics becoming more entwined with mainstream bookstores could be argued to be healthier for the industry in the long term. This serves as another example of issues with Comicsgate. The comics industry is in no danger whatsoever of falling apart. The statement the comics industry is dying is incorrect. It seems the only thing they can do is make extremely overblown claims and then have defenders argue they meant something much more mild after it is pointed out what they said is factually incorrect. You can call it hyperbole as much as you want but the fact remains the things they are saying are wrong and of course people tend to be dismissive of those repeating factually incorrect things.

Quote
The issue of marvel replacement characters has been pretty clearly shown to fit into the trend of past marvel history. Yeah some of them were pretty crappy but I put that down to a lot of current writers and styles that are given a ton of freedom. Was the iron man replacement really any worse then Bendis milking the whole secret of Ronin?

Too many replacement characters at the same time, none of whom were handled well and with each and every one Identity Politics were pushed ahead of story.

Total opinion with no actual facts to argue. The current Ms Marvel, Miles Spidey and  Hawkeye  certainly seem to have very large fanbases. While none of the characters particularly interested me I have sampled all of their stuff and it seemed to be consistent with the general level of a traditional marvel comic. I would argue that those claiming that every single replacement character was handled poorly would make up an extremely small minority.

Quote
The whole current political trends are being unfairly forced into the comics is almost laughable compared to examples given from the past about how female characters were very intentionally margianialized in mainstream comics.

So do two wrongs make a right?

No but it illustrates the lack of truth behind Comicsgates claim that they want politics out of comics when what they use as example a traditional status quo that was created and maintained by much more extreme and discriminatory policies. Also it puts into focus the fact that the politics free comics landscape never existed. The current landscape of marvel is actually must more reflective of modern society which is of course something modern companies are going to want. Comicgate has not proven there are any problems with this besides personal opinions so they appeal to the past to return to a status quo created because of philosophies that would be seen as extremely far right an unacceptable by the vast majority of modern society. 

Quote
In regards to various other points they are clearly outright lying on several events in current comics or exaggerating them so far beyond the context of the actual comic that they are useless to consider as valid criticism. Say what you want about hyperbole but if you distort something enough that you are no longer addressing the actual subject matter then you no longer have the right to act like you are presenting a valid point.

Agreed and I think that works on both sides of the fence which is why the 'truth' lies somewhere in between.

The thing is Comicsgate is trying to present themselves as a movement. There is no anti Comicsgate movement. They are trying to convince people of what they believe and for most people the amount of clearly proven dishonesty coming from them means the most logical thing to do is ignore them.

Quote
A large number of the main personalities behind comicsgate are clearly sexist and racist. That has been pretty clearly shown through this thread and the fact that the movement is welling to accept the as major contributors says very negative things about it.

If you insult (for the purposes of humour or otherwise lets say for the sake of argument) various individuals including a woman does that automatically make you a sexist?

I was watching some Ricky Gervais stand-up (on Netflix) a few days ago and he was insulting/making fun of lots of people including Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner...does that mean he's automatically transphobic?

If you in ignore the qualifications of women to falsely attack them for being unqualified just because they are women then yes you are a sexist.

Someone trying to incite anger against a business by launching false attacks based on sexism on employees is not remotely the same as being a stand up comedian making jokes. Honestly this comparison is incredibly intellectually dishonest and it really seems like you are doing mental gymnastics to try and justify this group because you approve of their politics.


Quote
It's also pretty clear that the movement is being hugely hypocritical complaining about inserting politics into comics and then supporting material that is equally far right from creators in the community. Honestly if you can look at scans posted a page bag and not see how they are playing into political narratives just as much as Jane Thor played into its own then you are allowing your own political views to blind you. Both were a huge turn off for me.

Marvel character's punch Nazis...Comicsgate characters punch Nazis AND MS-13 yet the latter is deemed politically biased.  ::)

Captain America being anti Nazi was incredibly political as has already been explained. I have used images from the early issues in several of the World War 2 classes I have taught. There is nothing wrong with politics in comics. Marvel has been very open about it throughout its history. Superman widely accepted as the first superhero was incredibly political to a degree you would likely not see in an A list hero today. Comicsgate gets insulted from proclaiming they are against politics in comics (ignoring history) then turning around and right away inserting right wing politics into the comics they are involved in

Quote
Are there actually any other issues because honestly it seems at this point comicsgate should be given zero credibility.

Certainly the (left leaning, identity politics steeped) mainstream wants Comicsgate totally no platformed.

Comicsgate
Issues sexist attacks on people in the industry based on false information
Distorts and lies about the material in comics to promote outrage
Takes no action to distance itself from individuals who make totally inappropriate and unprofessional statements


In is defense you can claim there is too much "SJW" stuff in comics.

Of course the vast majority of the mainstream wants nothing to do with such a toxic movement obsessing over a leisure hobby. Most people will just choose to not rid the stuff they find annoying and go on with their day.

Honestly it seems like you take as a default that the mainstream is super far left then use it as an argument for anything Comicsgate does.When the frequent lies, dishonesty and negative behaviors of Comicsgate members is pointed out you simple refer without any facts to the left trying to suppress alternate views.

Honestly besides your personal preference for right wing politics why should they be given a platform? Based on their own behavior they are proven themselves very unworthy of one by the standards of any professional business.
 

« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 09:28:36 PM by Dalek »

Mightily Oats

  • *******
  • 6231
  • +77/-582
  • Master of Fagnetism
    • View Profile
Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #257 on: September 25, 2018, 04:06:45 PM »
Not sure why anyone continues to humour Upper Krust

HalloweenJack

  • ********
  • 9310
  • +39/-9
  • Rowdy AF
    • View Profile
Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #258 on: September 27, 2018, 05:26:51 PM »
Well the punchometer

Upper_Krust

  • *****
  • 1369
  • +22/-55
    • View Profile
Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #259 on: September 28, 2018, 09:21:10 PM »
"Probably" an exaggeration? C'mon.

Regardless, CG's bad attitudes toward minority and female characters created or revamped at Marvel this decade run far beyond replacements of white male characters (Ms Marvel, Captain Marvel, Miles, Squirrel Girl...). This isn't really debatable for the movement as a whole, since there's plenty of pro-CG material arguing just that, whether or not your own individual views reflect their stances.

Are people not allowed to have a bad attitude towards characters they find are some combination of:
- shallow and uninteresting
- political mouthpieces
- diversified knock-offs

Quote
Miles Morales is only relatively better received by CGers than Riri--there's still plenty of CG dislike and "diversity hire" flack thrown his way by a sizeable portion of the movement on CG sites, Twitter, YouTube comments sections, etc. Even Meyer himself dislikes Miles, though he avoids using racial reasons to explain why.


The only criticism I have seen from him about Miles was in the recent crossover featuring both 'Spider-men' where it seemed Miles was acting more like the established, experienced hero while Peter acted like the opposite.

Quote
No, I've been pretty fair in sticking to actual things leading CG figures and sites have repeatedly claimed and asserted. I'm definitely not just grabbing random postings from the dregs of pro-CG sock accounts that have 3 Facebook friends, or my citations would be much worse. :)

...and so far the most you have is that D&C has said some offensive things about a year ago (mainly in a private chat) and made some clickbait-y exaggerated video titles.

Quote
No, that doesn't work. I tried to be fair ever since we started discussing this, and I've sampled his videos. He's repeatedly stated that women hired from other media don't work well in comics for lack of experience, even if they've worked in fiction before (check out his Life of Captain Marvel videos). Other CGers have repeatedly said the same things.

Yet equally he has praised multiple female writers from the past and present.

So what are you saying here...that female writers cannot be criticized? Or if you do criticize them you are automatically sexist?

Quote
So, yeah, making a YouTuber who doesn't even script his videos or employ any kind of creative production values--and whose only comics ventures beforehand were total financial and creative failures--one of the most successful of the CG creators is the height of hypocrisy.


Well I am sure if his books are bad (as I have repeatedly noted) his sales will diminish.

Although worst case scenario they are as lacklustre as some mainstream books.

Quote
I don't care that much, but even if I did I don't have to pray--he's already released plenty of scripted pages, and they were objectively awful.

I'm not even talking about taste--I love plenty of trash (pulp fiction, grindhouse movies, etc.). But on a technical level, they're bad.

I don't like the art, beyond that the writing didn't seem hideous and given the story I wasn't expecting Watchmen.

Quote
The pretense that CG is apolitical, and not largely just a mostly reactionary right wing movement?

There are virtually no mainstream Conservative writers so those writers have to go somewhere.

As for political or apolitical content, lets just let the market sort out what it wants. I don't particularly want any political preaching in my entertainment - but then again I also don't see MS-13 being used as villainous characters any different from using any other types of villains (Nazis, Commies, Islamic Terrorists, Mafia or whatever).

Quote
You think anti-Nazi and anti-fascist sentiments were held by all Americans when Captain America #1 came out, before the U.S. entered the war?


I'd doubt it since even in Britain here at that time there were many pro-fascists like (politician) Oswold Mosley. However, importantly they were vastly outnumbered and I suspect the same was the case in the US.

Quote
You should research the phrase "prematurely anti-fascist"--not only were those sentiments considered left wing and divisive by conservatives and even some centrists in the U.S. at the time, but being on the record as having been anti-Nazi/anti-fascist before 1942 was used as evidence of possible communist ties during the 50's and 60's. Simon and Kirby were making a huge political statement with Cap, and it was mostly a left wing thing until the U.S. caught up.

(...looked into it) Very interesting although (as you note) 'possible communist ties' were something that occurred a decade or so later (after Nazism had been defeated).

Quote
And while Marvel's anti-communist messages were more mainstream in the early 60's, Stan's very unsubtle and in-your-face pro-Civil Rights sermonizing certainly was not. Everyone remembers Martin Luther King Jr. as a saint nowadays, but there were huge swaths of the country against what he was doing, particularly by conservatives in both parties and much of the South. Our contemporary acceptance of those political platforms don't change how they were viewed at the time, and Stan got plenty of negative mail from the Silver Age equivalent of Comicsgaters for being too political.

Maybe if Stan was writing now he'd be doing stories with Captain America battling MS-13.  8)

Quote
Not only did Waid very explicitly say he wanted to talk to Meyer in the very Facebook thread Ethan cited, but they did in fact talk on the phone *5 days later* when it turned out Meyer wasn't at the con (also posted on Facebook). Any pretense otherwise by CGers is laughable, especially when the pretense is that the chubby middle-aged nerd with no record of violence was looking to smash the trained Marine with a record of kicking someone's ass (which Waid had already known about).


I know they talked in private. D&C mentioned it in one of his videos but said Waid didn't really want to chat as much as state his opinion.

Quote
Van Sciver knows all of this information, but still chose to blatantly and knowingly spread lies about Waid, full stop. You're better than defending such a profoundly stupid amd dishonest tactic on his part, and it's definitely another cynical example of the faux-martyrdom they typically engage in to help sell books.

Yet he did get his Publisher to drop him.

Quote
How is B. Clay Moore Waid's "cohort"? Explain to me what their relationship is, assuming they've ever even directly interacted at all in any meaningful way. Comicsgate is an actual movement, but simply being anti-Comicsgate is not.


That was just a fanciful comment on my part. I don't know what their relationship is other than they are both Anti-Comicsgate and both wanted to 'run into' Meyer at the Con.

Quote
But you've just admitted that you've never been to one of the most popular pro-CG web sites there is (much bigger than Bleeding Fool), and only occasionally watch videos from one of the most popular CG leaders there is, so it's weird to see you claim that he couldn't have been big because you didn't know about him.


I don't recall ever seeing (or reading) anyone talking about Bounding into Comics until about a week ago.

Quote
He made a quarter of a million dollars with Alt-Hero, dude. Whether or not you knew him, all you have to do is Google him and follow the contemporary discussions about him in 2017 and early 2018 to see what a big deal he was in those circles, including nabbing Chuck Dixon. Objectively, he'd be on the Mount Rushmore of CG leaders before the (purely financial) fallout with EVS.

I'll check him out.

Quote
That's simply not true, especially before September. Even from EVS himself, who was pulling for his success despite the criticisms of Vox's arrogance and lack of experience.

Also, frankly--and this isn't directed at you--all of the CGers who go apoplectic and lead boycotts against SJW creators, but then display a mild "live and let live" attitude about an open racist like Vox Day (with plenty even going further and supporting him) are repugnant.


I agree it would be hypocritical.

Quote
Again, not directed at you, but when this mild attitude about (and support for) Vox Day coexists in the same CG circles with the furious anger directed at leftist writers they want to drive out of their jobs, I think it's very telling.

But that's like saying why are Leftists not angry when comic writers (like Mags Visaggio) support Antifa?

There are always going to be followers on the fringes of Comicsgate who support Vox Day.

There are people on both sides who support extremism, but you can't condemn one side without also condemning the other.

Quote
While Meyer's attempts to repair his reputation definitely have their upside, that's a very feeble defense of Vox Day's career.

"The answer for those who support Western civilization, regardless of sex, color, or religion, is to embrace white tribalism, white separatism, and especially white Christian masculine rule."

That's Vox Day. Defending him is only one or two steps away from defending David Duke, who I'm sure also employs some people who don't agree with him.

Precisely why I don't support him.

Then again neither would I support Antifa and the Far Left anymore than I would support the Far Right.

Quote
"'Black Panther and the Crew' was a segregationist comic about white genocide!"--Richard Meyer on PJMedia.

That's about as blatant a lie as it gets. Even your own inaccurate paraphrase of his statement is wrong (despite correctly specifiying gentrification), since you can't even say "superheroes" were against it plurally (a single one was against gentrification, but one supported it, and the others didn't give a crap one way or the other).

Is it as much of a lie as calling EVS a Nazi?

Quote
Every single month? Really?

Averaging 12 per month this year. That's DOUBLE the average of the preceding 9 years.

Quote
You mean Fantastic Four #1, which was double-sized at 48 pages? Seems like a bargain at that price for a new issue.

Who knows maybe they'll even have the actual Fantastic Four in issue #2.

Quote
Ironheart #1 is going be $3.99 at less pages. The new Iron Man title was $4.99.

Part of me wants Ironheart (assuming its a good book) to do well, but I understand its tough for new(ish) characters. Especially derivative ones.

Quote
Not only does overshipping contribute $0 to the bottom line (the only thing shareholders care about), but plenty of comic store owners have already pointed out that overshipments have always been a staple of doing business for a very long time.

I'm also pretty sure Marvel isn't overshipping by a whole 50 - 100% "many" times.

That's what stores have reported to Bleeding Cool.

Quote
Standard industry practice even before the SJWs supposedly took over.

Are Retailer Incentive variants a new thing though? Or if not new, more in vogue than before.

Quote
Marvel is part of a publicly traded company that is legally required to report accurate financial statements, accountable to shareholders, for which anyone lying on their reports can go to jail. Comicsgaters are a bunch of YouTubers and artists who make up conspiracy theories and very obvious lies about the industry with no accountability whatsoever.

As COO, Joe Quesada would've ended up fired (or "resigned") by now if CG claims were even 5% true.


What claims? That sales are down 6-7 percent on the previous year?

Quote
On top of ignorance regarding easily searchable facts about comics industry and history, most of the more extreme Comicsgate business claims people like Meyer constantly spout display a shocking ignorance of how a public company of Marvel's size is run when there are 8 - 9 figure revenue streams at stake.

The only one who regularly touches on these things is Umbrella Guy and he seems to have a decent handle on the details.

Quote
But I already answered your question--I said it depended on how the scene was written.

Oh no...the poor MS-13 murderers deserve SO much better, we can't have them treated in a stereotypical fashion, think of their hurt feelings.  :'(

Quote
Now, answer mine: Are you confident I can show that page to a group of people who know nothing about Comicsgate and have less than 80% guess that Mike Miller is a pro-Trump conservative? Because that scene's politics are about as subtle as an atomic bomb, and would be obvious to any American who knows nothing else about the writer.

Already answered this. Any minority shown in a villainous light (even MS-13 gang members) is automatically going to infer a conservative writer given the left's 'shyness' in touching on such matters.

Quote
Calling people f**s and transphobic comments in particular isn't just incidental rudeness--he's attacking those things specifically. Griffith never attacked straight people as a group when Meyer called him a f**, and Devin Grayson had never said anything about Meyer at all when he threw really vile sexist accusations her way.

Neither of us know every specific of every social media exchange.

Has D&C been stupid in all this yes he has. Have other people been stupid, yes they have.

I think I mention in another post about watching Ricky Gervais recently on Netflix where he insults all sorts of people including Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner. But telling such a joke (even one in poor taste) doesn't make him transphobic.

Quote
But literally everything I said was correct on a technical level. He did write that they're having pudding for dinner because he was too lazy to do 30 seconds of Google translator research. He did bold words at seemingly random for very awkward emphasis. The sound effects are in the wrong spots at points. The dialogue is stilted and unnatural, without style to compensate. Etc.

As I understand it his son is Mexican (or half-Mexican) and presumably the son's mother. So he is going to have more of a knowledge on the words used than I am. I presume that's what he's drawing upon.

Quote
You can claim "Hey, it's fun anyway", but technique is technique, and that's a pretty poor outing after criticizing the likes of his betters for 1000 hours.

I'm sure they'll be lining up to criticize his books don't worry. :)

Quote
I said "maybe", and that's faint praise when I'm comparing him to Marvel's worst writer.

But still important to note you are saying he is good enough to work for Marvel.  ;)

Upper_Krust

  • *****
  • 1369
  • +22/-55
    • View Profile
Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #260 on: September 28, 2018, 09:22:57 PM »
Well the punchometer...

...is the greatest and most accurate Comic Book fight predictor ever created.

NeoGreenLantern

  • ********
  • 16406
  • +92/-22
    • View Profile
Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #261 on: September 30, 2018, 07:16:19 PM »
IHe's married or in a relationship with a Mexican woman and he still used used arroz Con leche? That makes it even worse.