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What has Aaron done?

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #225 on: September 14, 2018, 07:45:38 PM »
Actually, it’s down to twenty bucks, which is in the realm of reasonable.


Aaaaactually, he's now selling a $100 version that's just the regular TPB with a t-shirt, a poster, and his very valuable signature. I'm not kidding.

Most of the other buyers paid 40 - 50 bucks for the book and a cheap poster that probably cost Meyer 10 cents to print, and 20 -25 bucks for just the book. A softcover book of that quality, mind you.

That's just sad.

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #226 on: September 14, 2018, 08:06:24 PM »
I agree, it's overpriced. But are you really shocked that fans - be it fans of comic books, baseball cards, video games, or any other collectible - are willing to pay ridiculous prices for special versions of dubious value? Just hink of it as the hologram cover of the current decade.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 08:08:19 PM by MTL76 »


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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #227 on: September 14, 2018, 08:43:27 PM »
I agree, it's overpriced. But are you really shocked that fans - be it fans of comic books, baseball cards, video games, or any other collectible - are willing to pay ridiculous prices for special versions of dubious value? Just hink of it as the hologram cover of the current decade.


I'm not shocked--I'm saying that significant overpricing is pretty sad, snake oil salesman behavior on Meyer's part given the actual content of the book and "extras" offered.

All of this overpricing for very dubious content reflects pretty poorly vs what the movement is supposed to stand for, but it does reinforce what its detractors say.

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #228 on: September 14, 2018, 09:06:07 PM »
I wouldn't call it snake-oil salesmanship. A snake-oil salesman would promise one thing and deliver another. If Meyer collected the money and failed to deliver on his product, I'd agree with you. He's selling a product at a price the market will tolerate. I would never pay that price, and I think it's very overpriced objectively, even if the graphic novel was amazing. I couldn't care less about a t-shirt and poster. But it seems he has enough fans who will pay that price, so he knows his audience.

Then again, I think just about all limited editions of comics, games, and whatnot are a waste. I don't care about glossy covers or special edition posters. The kind of features I like are the ones that Marvel and DC used to put in their oversized annuals - maps of Avengers mansion, back-up stories, artist interviews. Content that is worthwhile. And they'd pretty much put it in for free.

I think fifteen dollars is very fair for a 120-page graphic novel, just as a baseline number for graphic novels of that size. Twenty bucks is on the high end of normal. Anything more and I'd expect something like gorgeous art, or the things I mentioned above.


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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #229 on: September 14, 2018, 10:03:01 PM »
There's such a thing as business ethics. Someone like Brian K Vaughan could easily start charging 100 bucks for a regular softcover TPB of Saga with a special Fiona Staples poster and expect at least a few hundred zealous fans to buy his gimmick--there are always suckers to fleece (just ask KISS). However, that would make him an asshole. Usually, a premium signed book upcharged by the creators/primary market will have actual upgrades that increase the production costs (hardcover, sometimes leather binding, exclusive content, etc)--it's not just the regular glued softcover with a signature slapped on it and a cheap shirt/poster for 100 bucks.

Meyer is free to fleece the most ardent CG supporters as the market allows, but the point is releasing poorly written and drawn material at silly high prices is a really bad look for the head of a movement supposedly based on quality, fair treatment of fans, and reviving the industry. It's an equally bad look for CG fans who are supposedly all about rewarding quality/talent and not just buying something because of its status within a movement--you know, what they accuse SJWs of.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 10:05:07 PM by Visitor-Q »

MTL76

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #230 on: September 14, 2018, 10:12:18 PM »
Not to be pedantic, but again, using terms like “fleece” implies that Meyer is swindling his customers, or pulling a bait and switch. AFAIK, he isn’t. He’s being upfront about his price and product, and people are free to buy the stand-alone graphic novel. Is he being greedy? Maybe. But he’s not being dishonest. I have to wonder who the hell is buying the hundred dollar version, though. I agree with you that if I’m paying more than twenty dollars for a graphic novel, there should be something extra, like backup stories or bonus art. And even then, I’m not paying a hundred fucking dollars.



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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #231 on: September 14, 2018, 10:30:07 PM »
Eh, fleece usually has an overcharge denotation/connotation in most dictionaries, and Meyer is definitely taking advantage of being able to overcharge eager people who see themselves as willing to pay extra to contribute toward a movement.

There is dishonesty there, IMO, no different than how some American mega-pastors are said to fleece their flocks (who are also more than willing, and technically know what they're paying for), but we don't have to quibble on that, since we mostly agree.

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #232 on: September 17, 2018, 07:51:50 PM »
Well, Manafort just pleaded guilty to being a secret foreign agent of Putin's Ukrainian puppet leader, so let's agree on the general principle and disagree on your particular example. :)

Its been a day or so since I was following this but as I understand it he took a plea deal on tax fraud, I don't recall any confirmation of what you just said (did a quick Google and didn't see anything but I could be wrong any links?).

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The comic industry is a billion dollar business in North America, and most estimates put the buyer base in the 7-figure range--10 K Comicsgaters being 1% of all readers is actually me being generous by setting all buyers at a flat 1 million people between the direct market, the book market, digital, etc.

...and it made less money last year.

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Even if I cut 1 million readers in half (meaning 500,000 spending an average of $2000, which is very obviously wrong), that would still make Comicsgaters a whopping...2% of all readers.

Comicsgaters have a vastly inflated sense of their importance and buying power.

From my perspective Comicsgaters seem less concerned with the rest of the Industry than the rest of the Industry is concerned with Comicsgate.

Although I suppose given the review based nature of a channel like D&C you could argue he is making some sort of commentary on the Industry on a daily basis.

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I found it pretty badly argued and very low on facts, actually, which has been a trend with every Comicsgater essay or video I waste time on.

Aside from the fact that 538 already took apart his ludicrous "comic books have ALWAYS been diverse" claim with actual statistical analysis, his dual assertions that

(1) the modern minority characters he doesn't like were created *just* to be minorities, and
(2) the past minority characters he does like weren't created for their minority status

is completely ahistorical and wrong, on both counts.

Black Panther and Falcon were specifically created for their identities as minorities to promote a liberal pro-Civil Rights message, as was John Stewart. Len Wein has repeatedly said that they replaced the all-white original X-Men with characters of all nationalities and colors specifically to promote diversity and appeal to readers of different backgrounds beyond white Americans (can you imagine how the Comicsgater community would've reacted to that news if they'd been around back then  ;D).

Etc.


You forgot...replaced them with good characters, not to mention they didn't character assassinate the previous ones to push these new characters.

Better marketing, simple.

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So you're saying all it takes is marketing to turn CGers into hypocrites about their principles? Because almost anyone that follows him and CG in general should be aware that his only experience in comics were a few self-published failures over an 8 year period, and the writing samples he's released were outright horrible.


I'm saying that marketing is giving him an advantage on sales.

The same way Marvel put out 10+ #1's each month is a form of marketing.

We'll see whether Meyer has any writing chops within a few months and if he doesn't I am sure his future sales will diminish.

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Huh? It's the CG movement that makes a big deal of politics in comics--it's THEIR assertion.

Of course, what they really mean is they want no left wing politics and plenty of right wing politics--which is fine, but they look ridiculous trying to pretend otherwise.

Well if someone did want a mixture they wouldn't be getting much of that from the mainstream, which is all one way traffic.

I have never had a problem with creators politicizing titles THEY created because then those books stand (or fall) on their own merits.

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I caught that, too, and witnessed CG's (and EVS's) complete denial of things Meyer had obviously done, in almost cult-like fashion. EVS even continued spreading the lie that Mark Waid plotted to assault Meyer.

You know, Mark Waid, the out-of-shape, schlubby, 50 year old dork who's probably never thrown a punch in his adult life. This guy was obviously going to take on a much younger former Marine and trained killer--a man who actually has a rap sheet for kicking someone's ass.  ::)

Yet the tweet where Mark posted about wanting to confront Meyer at a Con was made public.

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Yeah, he's so low profile he made more than a quarter million crowdfunding Alt-Hero, and was the most financially successful CG creator before Meyer and Van Sciver (and is still #3).

I don't doubt that you didn't know him, but you're anecdotal experience doesn't outweigh his proven success and stature within CG circles before he stabbed everyone in the back (and he still gets plenty of support).

I had seen the Alt-Hero Q crowdfund but it doesn't say front and centre "Produced by Vox Day and here's something racist he said". So unless someone researched into it all they will likely just see Chuck Dixon attached.

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No, that was also his message in other outlets like PJMedia. Either way, I'm not sure how using white supremacist terminology against a black writer to court clicks excludes pandering to that crowd.

He knew exactly what he was doing, and doing so will of course invite those associations with CG. He's garbage.

I think you are blowing that out of proportion.

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You're misreading--CG claims that the comics industry is DYING (e.g. their "dying narrative"), and that's demonstrably false.

I agree that's their opinion and their spin would be:

1. Sales are down for 2017
2. Comic Stores are closing at a significant rate.

But I would agree that the flipside is:

1. Sales are not really down that much in fairness.
2. They may or may not be taking into account Digital sales.
3. Culturally the movies are doing great.

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No--I'm saying that when you write an MS-13 scene as if it were a Chick Tract for Donald Trump's immigration platform, you're injecting very obvious politics into your comic.


Its certainly topical (given recent coverage) but I fail to see what your problem with that page is UNLESS:

1. You think MS-13 should not be used as villains? I disagree.
2. You think using MS-13 as villains degrades/defames Latinos? Again I disagree since they do not represent all Latinos.

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Now, please be honest: If I were to show that 1 page to random people and

(1) ask them if it's political, 

(2) tell them to guess the author's politics

...do you really think more than 2 out of 10 people couldn't guess Mike Miller supports Trump from that obvious propaganda?

C'mon, man, let's not be disingenuous.

So if the (patriotic) hero beats up some MS-13 gang members in one issue and then beats up some (Neo?) Nazis in the next issue is that comic overtly favouring one political side over another?

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So then why should anyone take CG seriously, since the movement is already showing blatant hypocrisy about their own principles right out of the gate? You think "marketing" excuses that? Meyer is literally the right wing version of the "purse puppy" he's so often ranted against when it comes to minority creators.


What hypocrisy are you on about? That a book has MS-13 as villains*!?

*as well as Nazis apparently but lets not mention that.

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When all's said and done, the only consistency CG has shown is its antipathy to left wing politics; it's simply a political movement within the comic industry, with a history of trolling and a not-so-insignificant part of its base tied to outright racists and homophobes.
 
I disagree. The only person attached that has said anything racist or homophobic is (AFAIK) Vox who is a fringe opportunist.

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We don't have to--samples of Iron Sights are up.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iron-sights-graphic-novel#/



That's legitimately substandard, embsrrassing stuff. CGers paid an average of $30+ for 100 pages of this garbage while complaining about supposed SJWs like Coates and Waid putting out far superior work.

What was wrong with the writing?

The art is substandard for a high profile mainstream title but not out of place for some titles.

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #233 on: September 17, 2018, 07:58:25 PM »
Aaaaactually, he's now selling a $100 version that's just the regular TPB with a t-shirt, a poster, and his very valuable signature. I'm not kidding.

Most of the other buyers paid 40 - 50 bucks for the book and a cheap poster that probably cost Meyer 10 cents to print, and 20 -25 bucks for just the book. A softcover book of that quality, mind you.

That's just sad.

(AFAIK) All profits from that second crowdfund on Iron Sights (selling off the remaining stock) went to LGBTQ Charity (the first $10,000) and the rest is going to Bill Messner Loebs.

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #234 on: September 17, 2018, 08:27:04 PM »
Not to be pedantic, but again, using terms like “fleece” implies that Meyer is swindling his customers, or pulling a bait and switch. AFAIK, he isn’t. He’s being upfront about his price and product, and people are free to buy the stand-alone graphic novel. Is he being greedy? Maybe. But he’s not being dishonest. I have to wonder who the hell is buying the hundred dollar version, though. I agree with you that if I’m paying more than twenty dollars for a graphic novel, there should be something extra, like backup stories or bonus art. And even then, I’m not paying a hundred fucking dollars.

I agree with you on that.

Most Crowdfund comic campaigns ask for slightly more money than what you will typically pay in shops because there are a bunch of variables involved (such as potential smaller print runs costing more, shipping rates, packaging and so forth) and they don't want to be caught out.

Personally I think $25-30 for a 100+ page Graphic Novel is probably the standard rate on most of these crowdfunds. Any additions (t-shirts, posters etc.) are a way to support the campaign but still get something (hopefully cool) in return.

I remember a few years ago I had a bunch of separate individuals offer me money to simply start writing RPG material again (in a sort of Patreon type way) but I declined. So dedicated fans of something are often willing to give creators money simply to keep 'creating'.

To get back to comics, where I start to worry is when its $25 (or whatever) for only 50 pages or thereabouts. I think that might be a dangerous road to travel (long term anyway). Of course Marvel are selling 20 pages at $5.99 on some books now so its not a million miles away.

But if a standard 120-160 page Trade/Graphic Novel is $15-20 in the shops then a crowdfunded book going for $25-30 is totally fine by me.

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #235 on: September 18, 2018, 10:49:40 AM »
Its been a day or so since I was following this but as I understand it he took a plea deal on tax fraud, I don't recall any confirmation of what you just said (did a quick Google and didn't see anything but I could be wrong any links?).

From the plea deal itself:

"The Special Counsel informs the Court:

"1. PAUL J. MANAFORT, JR. (MANAFORT) served for years as a political consultant and lobbyist. Between at least 2006 and 2015, MANAFORT conspired with Richard W. Gates (Gates), Konstantin Kilimnik (Kilimnik), and others to act, and acted, as unregistered agents of a foreign government and political party. Specifically, MANAFORT conspired to act and acted as an agent of the Government of Ukraine, the Party of Regions (a Ukrainian political party whose leader Victor Yanukovych was President from 2010 to 2014), President Yanukovych, and the Opposition Bloc (a successor to the Party of Regions that formed in 2014 when Yanukovych fled to Russia)."

The tax fraud is directly related to him hiding being a paid agent for Yanukovych (Putin's man in Ukraine), etc. There are even statements from Manafort about how he used Ben Shapiro to plant stories according to that party's needs.


...and it made less money last year.

Yeah, a mere $70 K less while still being a billion dollar industry.

Comicsgaters have a vastly inflated sense of their current size and economic power, and rely on conspiracy theories and ignorance to convince a gullible percentage of mostly right wing fans that THE COMIC INDUSTRY IS DYING (Meyer has actually been pushing this narrative even more aggressively now, despite Marvel showing consecutive monthly growth since April).



From my perspective Comicsgaters seem less concerned with the rest of the Industry than the rest of the Industry is concerned with Comicsgate.

Although I suppose given the review based nature of a channel like D&C you could argue he is making some sort of commentary on the Industry on a daily basis.


Even my very casual following of VS and Meyer now is filled with a constant obsession of trying to convince their base that the industry is dying, conspiracy theories from anonymous sources that Marvel is actually secretly down 17%, conspiracy theories about blacklists and SJW agendas, fake persecution complexes, etc., on their Twitter feeds and YouTube videos.


You forgot...replaced them with good characters, not to mention they didn't character assassinate the previous ones to push these new characters.


Except CG criticisms aren't limited to Jane Thor, so your defense there doesn't really hold up. I've read articles from CG sites like Bounding Into Comics call characters like Ms Marvel, Miles, et al diversity hires who whose creations were too driven by their ethnic/racial identities and nothing else, unlike the supposed good ole' days.

Except in the good ole' days, characters like the all-new X-Men, Falcon, Black Panther, etc. were specifically created specifically for diversity and political reasons first, and they were no more three dimensional than someone like Ms Marvel.

CG philosophies are mostly based on willful distortions or genuine ignorance of actual comic history, current comic business practices, and business 101.


Better marketing, simple.


Except this is a movement about quality and industry experience. Why would they willfully choose to spend so much of their money on a YouTuber whose only previous experience are failures, unless they're guilty of exactly the kind of behavior they claim SJWs indulge in?

Marketing isn't an excuse--that actually makes it worse because of the nature of their rallying cries and criticisms. In the end, they bought Meyer's comic almost solely because of his identity as a leader in their community.


I'm saying that marketing is giving him an advantage on sales.

The same way Marvel put out 10+ #1's each month is a form of marketing.

We'll see whether Meyer has any writing chops within a few months and if he doesn't I am sure his future sales will diminish.


Given the samples Meyer has released, my magic 8-ball says the CG community better be ready to get clowned.

Also, again, marketing is no excuse, given the movement's goals. A vegan community caught eating burgers doesn't get to say, "Oh, but the marketing!" to avoid getting mocked. If you're a movement, you either stick to your principles or don't.


Well if someone did want a mixture they wouldn't be getting much of that from the mainstream, which is all one way traffic.

I have never had a problem with creators politicizing titles THEY created because then those books stand (or fall) on their own merits.


Then CG should just abandon their non-political pretense and admit what they are.

Also, Marvel comics in particular have consistently been mostly about left wing politics within the context of their times. Even the anti-Commie stance of the early 60's was just Kennedy-flavored Democratic politics.


Yet the tweet where Mark posted about wanting to confront Meyer at a Con was made public.

You are aware that even within that post, Waid made it clear within a couple hours that it was to talk to him, right? And Van Sciver not only already knows this, but knows that Waid is a 56 year old chubby nerd with 0 adult fighting experience, and Richard Meyer is a trained Marine who already got into legal trouble for kicking someone's ass (which Waid knew about)?

But, sure, let's let Van Sciver off the hook for continuing to tell this absolutely moronic lie.


I had seen the Alt-Hero Q crowdfund but it doesn't say front and centre "Produced by Vox Day and here's something racist he said". So unless someone researched into it all they will likely just see Chuck Dixon attached.

Vox Day was repeatedly discussed in CG circles and even sites like Bounding Into Comics; he was on Van Sciver's channel; etc. His crowd funded success with the first Alt-Hero is what helped ignite CG crowdfunding heading into 2018.

I believe what you're saying about your own experience, but the leaders in the CG community clearly knew what he was and aligned themselves with him anyway until he screwed them over (and, even then, he's retained support from significant corners of CG).


I think you are blowing that out of proportion.

I'm literally just describing exactly what Meyer did. He blatantly lied about Black Panther and the Crew using terms like "white genocide" on YouTube, PJMedia, and even Twitter to court clicks from that Vox Day crowd.


I agree that's their opinion and their spin would be:

1. Sales are down for 2017
2. Comic Stores are closing at a significant rate.

But I would agree that the flipside is:

1. Sales are not really down that much in fairness.
2. They may or may not be taking into account Digital sales.
3. Culturally the movies are doing great.


Additionally, Meyer and Van Sciver talk about the maybe 25 stores that have closed over the past 9 months, while not pointing out that this would be about 1% of the 2500 to 3000 retailers Diamond currently serves; they exaggerate while not even knowing what the closure rates were in past years to establish a baseline, etc.

When you combine that with the fact that a small drop in sales definitely doesn't warrant the hysterical COMICS ARE DYING claims, their invention of conspiracy theories to ignore the sales trends of the last two fiscal quarters, etc., it's pretty clear that their entire movement is just a cynical marketing ploy to get right wing people to buy their comics as part of a silly savior movement against supposedly radical leftists.


Its certainly topical (given recent coverage) but I fail to see what your problem with that page is UNLESS:

1. You think MS-13 should not be used as villains? I disagree.
2. You think using MS-13 as villains degrades/defames Latinos? Again I disagree since they do not represent all Latinos.

[later]

So if the (patriotic) hero beats up some MS-13 gang members in one issue and then beats up some (Neo?) Nazis in the next issue is that comic overtly favouring one political side over another?


That's a hypothetical, and I think you're being a bit rhetorically disingenuous, here. It's not just their use--it's how it's written.

I'll tell you what--if I put those pages up on a big bi-partisan political Facebook page I'm a part of whose members I'm sure know nothing about Comicsgate, and I take a poll asking them to guess the writer's political affiliation, do you really think at least 80% of the conservatives and liberals there wouldn't be able to guess Mike Miller is a Trump supporter?

Would you like to wager on it? Say, the winner gets to decide the other's profile pic and signature for a week? :)


 
I disagree. The only person attached that has said anything racist or homophobic is (AFAIK) Vox who is a fringe opportunist.

Meyer has called homosexual creators fags and made plenty of transphobic comments. Come on, man.



What was wrong with the writing?

The art is substandard for a high profile mainstream title but not out of place for some titles.


What's wrong with the writing in that 20 page sample, other than hilarious misuse of Spanish food, stilted and awkward dialogue with bolding in all the wrong places, paper thin plotting, barely 1-dimensional characters, and failed 1-page comedy gags? Not to mention the really bad and lazy art.

I mean, him shitting on other writers for 500 hours of video only compounds the clowning he's been getting (you better write like Alan Moore and use an artist on J.H. Williams's level if you're going to be that much of a troll), but Meyer's pretty clearly substandard when compared against almost any of the writers he's been railing against for the past year or two except maybe the dud who wrote the America series.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 04:38:23 PM by Visitor-Q »

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #236 on: September 18, 2018, 11:15:56 AM »
(AFAIK) All profits from that second crowdfund on Iron Sights (selling off the remaining stock) went to LGBTQ Charity (the first $10,000) and the rest is going to Bill Messner Loebs.


Saw his post about the $10,000 yesterday, but I haven't seen him say he's not keeping most of the rest of the proceeds.

If I see him post that he's donated all of it, then fair enough.


« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 04:38:42 PM by Visitor-Q »

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #237 on: September 19, 2018, 12:29:22 PM »
From the plea deal itself:

"The Special Counsel informs the Court:

"1. PAUL J. MANAFORT, JR. (MANAFORT) served for years as a political consultant and lobbyist. Between at least 2006 and 2015, MANAFORT conspired with Richard W. Gates (Gates), Konstantin Kilimnik (Kilimnik), and others to act, and acted, as unregistered agents of a foreign government and political party. Specifically, MANAFORT conspired to act and acted as an agent of the Government of Ukraine, the Party of Regions (a Ukrainian political party whose leader Victor Yanukovych was President from 2010 to 2014), President Yanukovych, and the Opposition Bloc (a successor to the Party of Regions that formed in 2014 when Yanukovych fled to Russia)."

The tax fraud is directly related to him hiding being a paid agent for Yanukovych (Putin's man in Ukraine), etc. There are even statements from Manafort about how he used Ben Shapiro to plant stories according to that party's needs.

Sounds like he should have openly funneled any monetary 'donations' from foreign powers into a 'Charity' (like the Clinton Foundation). But it highlights how corrupt people in Politics are.

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Yeah, a mere $70 K less while still being a billion dollar industry.


Actually its down $70 MILLION...which is almost 7% of the Industry.

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Comicsgaters have a vastly inflated sense of their current size and economic power, and rely on conspiracy theories and ignorance to convince a gullible percentage of mostly right wing fans that THE COMIC INDUSTRY IS DYING (Meyer has actually been pushing this narrative even more aggressively now, despite Marvel showing consecutive monthly growth since April).

I'd argue a lot of Marvel's 'growth' is dubious (although those 10+ #1 issues EVERY month is certainly boosting them with Speculators) but to answer your question directly I think the sum totality of Comicsgate videos and articles talking about the Industry dying is a very small percentage of all articles/videos and often simply done for exaggeration purposes.

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Even my very casual following of VS and Meyer now is filled with a constant obsession of trying to convince their base that the industry is dying, conspiracy theories from anonymous sources that Marvel is actually secretly down 17%, conspiracy theories about blacklists and SJW agendas, fake persecution complexes, etc., on their Twitter feeds and YouTube videos.

By 'constant obsession' you mean talk about it once every 100 videos or something like that. :D

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Except CG criticisms aren't limited to Jane Thor, so your defense there doesn't really hold up.


Any counter criticism from you would be showing how RiRi (for instance) was a good character with good stories. Which you can't.

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I've read articles from CG sites like Bounding Into Comics call characters like Ms Marvel, Miles, et al diversity hires who whose creations were too driven by their ethnic/racial identities and nothing else, unlike the supposed good ole' days.

I suspect that's probably an exaggeration on their part. While its clear many of these new creators are only too happy to espouse their (left leaning of course) political opinions in both their writing AND on social media - I'd like to think that wasn't their only reason for getting into comics.

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Except in the good ole' days, characters like the all-new X-Men, Falcon, Black Panther, etc. were specifically created specifically for diversity and political reasons first, and they were no more three dimensional than someone like Ms Marvel.

Even if a character was created specifically for diversity and political reasons* (and personally I'm all for diversity and representation) they'll be MUCH better received if the stories they feature in don't ram identity politics down the readers throats at every turn.

*Such as Miles Morales for instance who is a far better received character than RiRi, despite coming from the same writer.

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CG philosophies are mostly based on willful distortions or genuine ignorance of actual comic history, current comic business practices, and business 101.

I think you are confusing Comicsgate 'philosophies' with anything ever said by any Comicsgater ever including Clickbait video titles.

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Except this is a movement about quality and industry experience. Why would they willfully choose to spend so much of their money on a YouTuber whose only previous experience are failures, unless they're guilty of exactly the kind of behavior they claim SJWs indulge in?

Probably because if his books are half as entertaining as his channel then they'll be fun reads.

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Marketing isn't an excuse--that actually makes it worse because of the nature of their rallying cries and criticisms. In the end, they bought Meyer's comic almost solely because of his identity as a leader in their community.

...and because he is entertaining.

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Given the samples Meyer has released, my magic 8-ball says the CG community better be ready to get clowned.

I'm sure you and others are praying* its bad. :D

*Even the atheists

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Also, again, marketing is no excuse, given the movement's goals. A vegan community caught eating burgers doesn't get to say, "Oh, but the marketing!" to avoid getting mocked. If you're a movement, you either stick to your principles or don't.

I don't see what principles they have not stuck to. The primary principle has ever been to see (and make) entertaining comics not drenched in identity politics.

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Then CG should just abandon their non-political pretense and admit what they are.

What political pretense are you on about?

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Also, Marvel comics in particular have consistently been mostly about left wing politics within the context of their times. Even the anti-Commie stance of the early 60's was just Kennedy-flavored Democratic politics.

Yes and anti-Nazi comics of the 40s and Anti-Commie comics of the 60s were values held by all (because Nazism and Communism are terrible ideologies).

Many of today's mainstream comics are openly Anti-Conservative/Republican though - as are many vocal mainstream creators.

So you can't point to Cap punching Hitler or Thor blowing up Commie tanks as examples to excuse modern identity politics in comics.

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You are aware that even within that post, Waid made it clear within a couple hours that it was to talk to him, right?


Except Waid obviously doesn't want to talk with Meyer at all - otherwise he could have spoken to him on twitter or on a livestream (as Waid did with EVS).

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And Van Sciver not only already knows this, but knows that Waid is a 56 year old chubby nerd with 0 adult fighting experience, and Richard Meyer is a trained Marine who already got into legal trouble for kicking someone's ass (which Waid knew about)?

But, sure, let's let Van Sciver off the hook for continuing to tell this absolutely moronic lie.

I don't see Waid getting into a fistfight with Meyer but I could see some of his baying cohorts (like B. Clay Moore* who IIRC did private message about punching Meyer at that Con) starting something.

*who's Kickstarter book still hasn't been fulfilled years after he took the money.  ::)

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Vox Day was repeatedly discussed in CG circles and even sites like Bounding Into Comics; he was on Van Sciver's channel; etc. His crowd funded success with the first Alt-Hero is what helped ignite CG crowdfunding heading into 2018.

I've never actually been to Bounding Into Comics (though I'll go check them out) and I never saw him on EVS channel (I only watch the occasional video so I could have easily missed him), so he can't have been THAT big a presence.

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I believe what you're saying about your own experience, but the leaders in the CG community clearly knew what he was and aligned themselves with him anyway until he screwed them over (and, even then, he's retained support from significant corners of CG).

I don't agree with what Vox has said but I'm not going to begrudge him making a living just because he has opinions I find distasteful. From what I saw the vast majority of Comicsgaters were in opposition to him.

Equally, I'm not going to criticize creators who work with him either directly or tangentally, that's their business. Even if you find some of the things D&C has said distasteful, I'm sure you'd agree his giving $10,000 to LGBT charities is a GOOD thing. So positives can come from people we disagree with; Vox likely employs 'x' amount of people and my guess is most of them don't share many of his opinions.

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I'm literally just describing exactly what Meyer did. He blatantly lied about Black Panther and the Crew using terms like "white genocide" on YouTube, PJMedia, and even Twitter to court clicks from that Vox Day crowd.


He exaggerated, he didn't lie. One of the themes of the story was Black Superheroes against Gentrification.

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Additionally, Meyer and Van Sciver talk about the maybe 25 stores that have closed over the past 9 months, while not pointing out that this would be about 1% of the 2500 to 3000 retailers Diamond currently serves; they exaggerate while not even knowing what the closure rates were in past years to establish a baseline, etc.


AFAIK several years ago (c. 2012-14) there were 6000+ retailers with Diamond and that is now under 2500.

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When you combine that with the fact that a small drop in sales definitely doesn't warrant the hysterical COMICS ARE DYING claims, their invention of conspiracy theories to ignore the sales trends of the last two fiscal quarters, etc., it's pretty clear that their entire movement is just a cynical marketing ploy to get right wing people to buy their comics as part of a silly savior movement against supposedly radical leftists.

If the Industry was as healthy as you suggest Marvel wouldn't need to release 10+ NEW #1 issues EVERY SINGLE MONTH.

If the Industry was as healthy as you suggest Marvel wouldn't be charging up to $5.99 for #1 issues.

If the Industry was as healthy as you suggest Marvel wouldn't need to be overshipping 50-100% on many of its titles.

If the Industry was as healthy as you suggest Marvel wouldn't need half a dozen or more variant covers on many of its titles (in particular #1 issues).

Yes Comicsgaters are exaggerating the death of the Industry BUT at the same time Marvel are exaggerating the vitality of the Industry. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

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That's a hypothetical, and I think you're being a bit rhetorically disingenuous, here. It's not just their use--it's how it's written.

I'll tell you what--if I put those pages up on a big bi-partisan political Facebook page I'm a part of whose members I'm sure know nothing about Comicsgate, and I take a poll asking them to guess the writer's political affiliation, do you really think at least 80% of the conservatives and liberals there wouldn't be able to guess Mike Miller is a Trump supporter?

Would you like to wager on it? Say, the winner gets to decide the other's profile pic and signature for a week? :)

What would that prove other than MS-13 are defended by the left leaning mainstream media and thus by default any portrayal of them as villains must be 'right wing'.

Again you dodged the actual question though.

Why is having MS-13 as villains in a comic a bad thing?

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Meyer has called homosexual creators fags and made plenty of transphobic comments. Come on, man.

He has certainly been rude to INDIVIDUAL creators who happened to be trans or gay, notably after those self-same creators themselves made comments attacking (for example) CIS people (Visaggio) or white people (Rivera) etc.

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What's wrong with the writing in that 20 page sample, other than hilarious misuse of Spanish food, stilted and awkward dialogue with bolding in all the wrong places, paper thin plotting, barely 1-dimensional characters, and failed 1-page comedy gags? Not to mention the really bad and lazy art.

Wow! That was Comicsgater levels of exaggeration right there...have you ever considered a career as a Youtuber?  :D

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I mean, him shitting on other writers for 500 hours of video only compounds the clowning he's been getting (you better write like Alan Moore and use an artist on J.H. Williams's level if you're going to be that much of a troll), but Meyer's pretty clearly substandard when compared against almost any of the writers he's been railing against for the past year or two except maybe the dud who wrote the America series.

So you are saying Meyer is at least better than one of Marvel's most heavily promoted and high profile writers. ;)

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #238 on: September 19, 2018, 12:31:26 PM »
(AFAIK) All profits from that second crowdfund on Iron Sights (selling off the remaining stock) went to LGBTQ Charity (the first $10,000) and the rest is going to Bill Messner Loebs.

Saw his post about the $10,000 yesterday, but I haven't seen him say he's not keeping most of the rest of the proceeds.

If I see him post that he's donated all of it, then fair enough.

I can only go by what I heard him say on a video, the rest of the money is going to a Bill Messner Loebs 'Go Fund Me' Page (or something like that).

80sBaby

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #239 on: September 19, 2018, 02:00:06 PM »
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One of the themes of the story was Black Superheroes against Gentrification.

No, it wasn't.