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What has Aaron done?

Gree

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2018, 05:36:45 PM »
What happened to this guy man?

He annihilated Doctor Strange (Who are the eternals??), has ruined Thor.

Wtf.

Man I miss Hickman and good writers

I suspect the ruination of such characters is on purpose either on a conscious or subconscious level. With many of the modern comic pros seemingly Political Agenda >> Story/Character Development.

Aaron started well with Thor (albeit in a ridiculously decompressed story) and that bought him a lot of good will allowing him to get away with his later character assassination of 'Odinson'.

Ultimately though the die was cast from the beginning when they put an Atheist + Feminist on a book about an Alpha Male God.


Wow.

So how does the way Jason Aaron wrote alpha male Wolverine square with your psychological analysis of him? Or all of the competent, old school manly, Charlie Bronson style bad asses he fills his creator owned work with (Scalped, Southern Bastards)? Then there's the older Punisher in his Max run, who was always the smartest, toughest, most dangerous son of a bitch vs any man or woman set against him, despite having lost a step. Is all of that just a carefully constructed smoke screen to mask his real agenda, the emasculation of Thor?

To play devils advocate, when was the last time he wrote a competent male,

I’m not backing UK here but what he did to Odin and Thor since his original minis has been pretty nutty

Never mind what he’s done to the super metals and my inherent power heirarchy which drives me clinically insane

Visitor-Q

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2018, 08:22:53 PM »

To play devils advocate, when was the last time he wrote a competent male,

I’m not backing UK here but what he did to Odin and Thor since his original minis has been pretty nutty

Never mind what he’s done to the super metals and my inherent power heirarchy which drives me clinically insane


If we're ignoring the history I mentioned and focusing on the last couple years, Star Wars, Southern Bastards, and The Goddamned all had competent male badasses, good and bad.

Can't speak to Thor since I'm not caught up completely, but I just find the concept of Jason Aaron being some man-hating feminist hell bent on ruining alpha male characters hilarious, given his history outside of Thor. He always writes strong women, but his go-to character types for males often seem to skew toward Clint Eastwood/Charles Bronson types.

Gree

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2018, 09:50:34 PM »
I believe you and trust you. Catch up on Thor and let me know what you think.

Warm regards,

Gree

scourge

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2018, 12:35:51 PM »
Haven't read comics in a while, but I was a fan of his work when I was reading them. I remember first reading his work on Ghost Rider and finding it the most compelling GR material that I can recall.

Gree

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2018, 03:38:50 PM »
I did not like his Anton Levy Hellstrom though

Panthergod

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2018, 03:52:22 PM »
LaVEY.

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2018, 01:59:53 AM »
Like I said in the Gen chat topic I think Aaron's real beef is with the concept of gods and has a need to tear them down for some reason.

Kallor

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2018, 02:27:07 AM »
Like I said in the Gen chat topic I think Aaron's real beef is with the concept of gods and has a need to tear them down for some reason.

Yeah, I think it's mainly this combined with some lazy work-for-hire writing (female empowerment stories are just easier to write if the men around Jane act as sexist foils).  I think he's been phoning it in for a while on his Marvel books, his plot consistency has also been shit.

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2018, 02:20:56 PM »
Been away on holiday hence the slow reply.

Wow.

So how does the way Jason Aaron wrote alpha male Wolverine square with your psychological analysis of him?

Well firstly, how he writes or doesn't write other characters does not change his hatchet job on Thor.

However, the timeline here is important. Aaron actually started off decent enough (albeit decompressed) on Thor and we know from studying recent history that the 'Progressive' Politics exploded in comics (particularly Marvel) around the end of 2014. The blow-back against that (ie. Comicsgate) started soon after.

His Wolverine run is circa. 2012

His original (pre-Identity Politics Hustling) Thor run was Nov. 2012 - Sep. 2014

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Or all of the competent, old school manly, Charlie Bronson style bad asses he fills his creator owned work with (Scalped, Southern Bastards)?


Being creator owned there was no institution to 'corrupt'. The SJW plan is to infiltrate the things people (predominantly men*) like and destroy them from within - we see that time and time again.

*although the Left's 'assault on attractiveness' also forces women out of jobs and job opportunities.

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Then there's the older Punisher in his Max run, who was always the smartest, toughest, most dangerous son of a bitch vs any man or woman set against him, despite having lost a step.


Circa. 2009.

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Is all of that just a carefully constructed smoke screen to mask his real agenda, the emasculation of Thor?

Pre-2014 he couldn't really have gotten away with any extensive emasculation of Thor or other male characters (although this was coming down the pipeline as soon as the comics code was abolished).

The big identity politics push started around late 2014.

Aaron is a self-admitted Atheist and Feminist. He hates everything Thor stands for and as soon as he got the opportunity to 'deconstruct'* Thor he flipped virtually every aspect of his character to give us the shamed, disabled, emasculated, unworthy, sitcom cuck we have now and he's shown zero interest in RECONSTRUCTING Thor as an aspirational hero. Instead pushing his own abomination Fem-Thor (as "The best of Thors") who is by no past metric worthy of wielding Mjolnir.

*Post-modern 'Code' for I hate this character so I'm going to change them as much as possible, regardless of the damage.

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2018, 02:25:37 PM »
Like I said in the Gen chat topic I think Aaron's real beef is with the concept of gods and has a need to tear them down for some reason.

Well I think his being an admitted (Far?) Left-wing Atheist and Feminist MIGHT just shed a ray of light on that. #Smashthepatriarchy  ::)


Visitor-Q

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2018, 08:40:57 PM »
Been away on holiday hence the slow reply.

No prob--I barely get to post as is myself.

Well firstly, how he writes or doesn't write other characters does not change his hatchet job on Thor.

If you were strictly talking about the quality of the title, I'd agree. However, you flew off into a tangent about Aaron's supposedly man-hating beliefs and agenda, so of course his works as a whole are going to matter.

However, the timeline here is important. Aaron actually started off decent enough (albeit decompressed) on Thor and we know from studying recent history that the 'Progressive' Politics exploded in comics (particularly Marvel) around the end of 2014. The blow-back against that (ie. Comicsgate) started soon after.

His Wolverine run is circa. 2012

His original (pre-Identity Politics Hustling) Thor run was Nov. 2012 - Sep. 2014

[Continued]

Being creator owned there was no institution to 'corrupt'. The SJW plan is to infiltrate the things people (predominantly men*) like and destroy them from within - we see that time and time again.

His Star Wars run was 2015 - 2017, and that franchise is a far more prominent institution both culturally and financially (even if you isolate their relative comic book sales and ignore everything else) than Thor as an individual character will ever be.

Your man-hating version of Aaron could've easily inserted all kinds of SJW emasculation into the series without violating continuity (I can think of several ideas involving Leia without even trying), but while the series has strong women--and everyone including them had their isolated storylines and mements to shine--Luke Skywalker is clearly written as the alpha badass who saves the day the most, and someone who's just as important for his bravery and tenacity while learning the ropes as he is for his power.

I also find it strange that you feel Aaron wouldn't use his most personal work--the titles he controls 100%--to push the supposedly man hating agenda he feels so strongly about.

No offense, but this is almost Alex Jones levels of conspiracy theory.

More than that, while I despise the far left almost as much as the far right, I also understand that women and minorities had it pretty bad in comics for most of its history, and the pendelum was going to swing in the other direction for at least a little while as a consequence.

All of Marvel's SJW comics are an infinitesimal drop in a sea of literally thousands of reprints, back issues, and collected editions where the shoe was on the other foot, re: women and minorities. What's more, when the shoe was on the other foot for those decades, the public ignored (and, today, acknowledges but tries to overlook) those flaws to give the classics their due (Stan Lee's largely sexist Marvel stories are rightfully still considered classics even by lefty writers, Will Eisner's racist Spirit, etc).

So, really, all of this whining about SJW tendencies in comics was much ado about nothing, from my perspective. Even at Marvel, there were plenty of titles that featured strong men and women, and diversity pushes that worked out (Waid's Black Widow, Miles Morales Spidey) despite dreck like America.


Aaron is a self-admitted Atheist and Feminist. He hates everything Thor stands for and as soon as he got the opportunity to 'deconstruct'* Thor he flipped virtually every aspect of his character to give us the shamed, disabled, emasculated, unworthy, sitcom cuck we have now and he's shown zero interest in RECONSTRUCTING Thor as an aspirational hero. Instead pushing his own abomination Fem-Thor (as "The best of Thors") who is by no past metric worthy of wielding Mjolnir.

*Post-modern 'Code' for I hate this character so I'm going to change them as much as possible, regardless of the damage.


Feminism is a big tent, and doesn't have to include the emasculation of men--most of the time (with the apprent exception of Thor), Aaron can simultaneously write strong men and women co-existing.

OTOH, similar to Garth Ennis, I actually do think his atheism was a drive to deconstruct the usefulness of gods from his perspective, and making the Thor role a woman was an obvious subversion that hadn't been tried yet.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 09:17:21 PM by Visitor-Q »

Red Exodus

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2018, 12:58:49 AM »
Fuck Aaron. He's the shitfuck who wrote Jane Foster as Thor (which makes no sense),
wrote the idea that being "a Thor" was an some kind of title/position as opposed to
being a person (which again, makes no sense), relentlessly shit on Odin as being this
absurd mysoginistic old fuck (which ONCE again, makes no sense), and his whole run
was honestly, a whole lot of nothing.

Add him to the list of shithead writers that get to do literally **anything** they want
without the slightest bit of self-control or respect for continuity and the characters.

Upper_Krust

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2018, 11:56:08 AM »
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If you were strictly talking about the quality of the title, I'd agree.


I'm talking specifically about what he has done and is still doing on Thor.

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However, you flew off into a tangent about Aaron's supposedly man-hating beliefs and agenda, so of course his works as a whole are going to matter.

Based on interviews and the Thor book itself its hard to reach any other conclusion.

His Thor is the Anti-Thor.

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His Star Wars run was 2015 - 2017, and that franchise is a far more prominent institution both culturally and financially (even if you isolate their relative comic book sales and ignore everything else) than Thor as an individual character will ever be.

I don't read Star Wars comics (at least not for 35 years) but its crystal clear the recent movies are neck deep in Identity Politics Hustling...which is why Solo (as a backlash to the Last Jedi) just lost Disney about $300 million.

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Your man-hating version of Aaron could've easily inserted all kinds of SJW emasculation into the series without violating continuity (I can think of several ideas involving Leia without even trying), but while the series has strong women--and everyone including them had their isolated storylines and mements to shine--Luke Skywalker is clearly written as the alpha badass who saves the day the most, and someone who's just as important for his bravery and tenacity while learning the ropes as he is for his power.

Sounds much better than the Last Jedi that's for sure.

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I also find it strange that you feel Aaron wouldn't use his most personal work--the titles he controls 100%--to push the supposedly man hating agenda he feels so strongly about.

If he alienates the largest demographic of his audience then a creator owned book will fail.

If he alienates the largest demographic of Thor fans then the sales start to slowly decline (because comic fans are slow to drop a book out of loyalty).

But you can only get away with this for so long and Aaron's run; bolstered by (an unprecedented) SIX #1 issues (in as many years), legacy #700 issue and uber-hyped "Death of the Mighty Thor"* only paper over the cracks with momentary sales spikes.

*Total bait and switch

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No offense, but this is almost Alex Jones levels of conspiracy theory.


In fairness Aaron has been less vociferous with his politics than many at Marvel.

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More than that, while I despise the far left almost as much as the far right,


I agree with you on that, although the comics industry is almost totally controlled by the far left* and under their watchful gaze anyone who doesn't support them is considered 'Far Right' even if politically Liberal (in the classical sense).

*Hence the number of Republicans being forced out of the Industry.

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I also understand that women and minorities had it pretty bad in comics for most of its history, and the pendelum was going to swing in the other direction for at least a little while as a consequence.

Did they though? What was this bad treatment?

Ask yourself this, if girls/women were as historically interested in Western Superhero Comics as boys, wouldn't Wonder Woman have been the biggest selling comic ever since it was the only female lead amongst however many comics were on the stands?

The harsh truth is that Western Superhero Comics were mainly of interest to boys, just like Romance novels were (and are) mainly of interest to girls. There are multiple reasons for that (such as men being more visually led and women being more language led* )

*Hence the reason men gravitate more to Youtube whereas women gravitate more to Twitter.

But my point is that you seem to think abandoning/alienating the core market is a good thing for comics...oblivious that sales are shrinking and comic book stores seem to be going under at a rate of about 1 per week.

The only reason to alienate a larger market share in favour of a smaller one is politics.

If the Comic Market supported more female or minority led titles, then the market would expand to fill consumer demand. But we know that isn't the case because new comics were not created, instead existing titles were diversified.

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All of Marvel's SJW comics are an infinitesimal drop in a sea of literally thousands of reprints, back issues, and collected editions where the shoe was on the other foot, re: women and minorities. What's more, when the shoe was on the other foot for those decades, the public ignored (and, today, acknowledges but tries to overlook) those flaws to give the classics their due (Stan Lee's largely sexist Marvel stories are rightfully still considered classics even by lefty writers, Will Eisner's racist Spirit, etc).

So, really, all of this whining about SJW tendencies in comics was much ado about nothing, from my perspective. Even at Marvel, there were plenty of titles that featured strong men and women, and diversity pushes that worked out (Waid's Black Widow, Miles Morales Spidey) despite dreck like America.


I agree with you that the SJW comics of today are a small fraction of the sum totality of all comics ever created. But that's not the point. The point is that they are a LARGE slice of contemporary comics and not in the "Hey look we created 20 new comic titles for women and minorities" but instead in the "we're just changing the characters you always loved so they represent women and minorities and if you don't like it tough".

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Feminism is a big tent, and doesn't have to include the emasculation of men--most of the time (with the apprent exception of Thor),

Agreed.

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Aaron can simultaneously write strong men and women co-existing.


I'm sure he could, but its clear he doesn't want to with Thor.

I know the following is purely anecdotal but I was just on holiday to London where I visited the biggest comic store in the UK (London's Forbidden Planet). No word of a lie they had approx. 100 copies of Aaron's Thor #1 STILL on the shelf (a book released 3 months ago or thereabouts), the latest issue #3 had approx. 50 copies on the shelf (several weeks after its release).

Here in my own LCBS I saw the same on a slightly smaller scale.

Aaron's Thor is not selling anywhere near the 40k average monthly shipped books Comichron outlines.

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OTOH, similar to Garth Ennis, I actually do think his atheism was a drive to deconstruct the usefulness of gods from his perspective, and making the Thor role a woman was an obvious subversion that hadn't been tried yet.

I'd have been all over a woman wielding Mjolnir had:

1. The character actually been written worthy - which Jane isn't: Aaron seems to think the Victim Card makes you worthy.

2. She hadn't been called Thor (because its idiotic) - and vice versa Thor hadn't been stripped of his name.

3. Thor himself hadn't been completely shat upon to make her seem great.

4. They hadn't blown so much smoke up her ass with all the fawning and "you are the best of Thors" nonsense.

5. He kept his politics out or, failing that, less hamfisted than female Asgardians screaming "Death to the Patriarchy!"

Whiskeyclone

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2018, 03:42:08 PM »
I'm an atheist and a feminist too, but I think everything after the second or third Thor arc sucks - I don't approve of anything he's done with the character or his mythology. If anything, wouldn't atheists enjoy seeing the pagan "gods" being written prominently and powerfully? Each active pantheon waters down the notion of a true God and lets us know that we're dealing with a wide-open, non-Christian/Muslim/etc world in which powerful beings are fallible and flawed rather than untouchable in moral and power terms.

Aaron's own lazy hack-ery is at the core of his shitty writing the last handful of years. I'm sure that Marvel did put out a directive or request for more female & minority characters, but Thor has survived replacements before without being broken down into a drunk loser piece of shit who can't win fights. A good writer would have taken the company directive in stride and made it work. Aaron just isn't a good writer at this point.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 03:46:29 PM by Whiskeyclone »

Kallor

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Re: What has Aaron done?
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2018, 04:33:24 PM »
I'm an atheist and a feminist too, but I think everything after the second or third Thor arc sucks - I don't approve of anything he's done with the character or his mythology. If anything, wouldn't atheists enjoy seeing the pagan "gods" being written prominently and powerfully? Each active pantheon waters down the notion of a true God and lets us know that we're dealing with a wide-open, non-Christian/Muslim/etc world in which powerful beings are fallible and flawed rather than untouchable in moral and power terms.

Aaron's own lazy hack-ery is at the core of his shitty writing the last handful of years. I'm sure that Marvel did put out a directive or request for more female & minority characters, but Thor has survived replacements before without being broken down into a drunk loser piece of shit who can't win fights. A good writer would have taken the company directive in stride and made it work. Aaron just isn't a good writer at this point.

Yeah, it's understandable to think the criticism is unfounded when you see the strange areas guys like Upper Krust fixate on, but my politics line up with Aaron's and I still feel his book is terribly written and extremely heavy-handed.