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Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion

Master

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2018, 10:08:50 AM »
from The Daily Beast

"Instead of helping Ava find a way to cope (and not necessarily eradicate) her disability, the film seeks to provide a cure. It does so with its own version of “white science,” a term coined by author Carol Clover in her psychoanalytic exploration of horror films, Men, Women, and Chainsaws. It refers to anything considered to be “Western traditional medicine,” usually dispensed or controlled by a white man. The quantum realm functions as this film’s white science, a magical but wholly scientific world discovered by Hank Pym. Once she is freed from the realm, Janet offers to save Ava by transferring her quantum energy into her. She lays her hands on Ava—a technique often associated with tent revival preachers who “cured” poor, afflicted people by touch—and saves the woman through scientific technology.

One could say Janet’s benevolence absolves Hank of his sins [of white privilege], or posits her as a white savior for this disabled woman of color, but it’s unclear whether any of that is directly coded into the film."

I like how the argument here switches gears from the cure looks like “white science” to the cure looks like “tent revival preachers”. Healing by laying hands is not a white phenomenon, and you can see versions of it across cultures and religions. But uh... the word quantum is used, so it’s science... and a white person healed someone, so WHITE SCIENCE!

I also like the take that curing a dying person is somehow worse than helping them cope.
9 outta 10 Masters are Master.

AP

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2018, 10:16:49 AM »
from The Daily Beast

"Instead of helping Ava find a way to cope (and not necessarily eradicate) her disability, the film seeks to provide a cure. It does so with its own version of “white science,” a term coined by author Carol Clover in her psychoanalytic exploration of horror films, Men, Women, and Chainsaws. It refers to anything considered to be “Western traditional medicine,” usually dispensed or controlled by a white man. The quantum realm functions as this film’s white science, a magical but wholly scientific world discovered by Hank Pym. Once she is freed from the realm, Janet offers to save Ava by transferring her quantum energy into her. She lays her hands on Ava—a technique often associated with tent revival preachers who “cured” poor, afflicted people by touch—and saves the woman through scientific technology.

One could say Janet’s benevolence absolves Hank of his sins [of white privilege], or posits her as a white savior for this disabled woman of color, but it’s unclear whether any of that is directly coded into the film."

I like how the argument here switches gears from the cure looks like “white science” to the cure looks like “tent revival preachers”. Healing by laying hands is not a white phenomenon, and you can see versions of it across cultures and religions. But uh... the word quantum is used, so it’s science... and a white person healed someone, so WHITE SCIENCE!

I also like the take that curing a dying person is somehow worse than helping them cope.

Yeah, so if you are a white doctor, you are apparently supposed to let non-whites die.  That's how you fight racism!

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2018, 05:33:51 PM »
There is a lot of flaws to this movie but in spite of all of that I still really enjoyed it. The actors and action sequences really made this movie a fun ride.

Ghost and Foster's plan makes no sense whatsoever.  They want Hank to go to the Quantum Realm to get his wife back, so why not go to Hank and say "Hey, if you go to this dimension and get your wife back, everyone wins".  I know they don't like Pym too much, but it's obvious he would want to get his wife back just as much as they would.  To make matters worse, they soon find out that's EXACTLY what Pym is trying to do but they then proceed to... try to stop them?  I mean, at the end of the movie, Ghost is outright trying to keep the heroes from doing the exact thing she wants them to do.  You'd think she'd team up with them against the arms dealers at point.  But no, she goes about trying to kill the very people she shouldn't want to die.

Well, Foster admits that their plan involving Janet has a good chance of killing her, which obviously Hank and co. don't want to happen. Also, Ghost was able to start siphoning off part of Janet's quantum energy before they even returned to the "real world," so they didn't need her back.

I don't think they wanted to go get her. They wanted to syphon off her the quantum energy using her as conduit. When they start the process Janet isn't out of the quantum realm yet.

AP

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2018, 07:03:34 PM »
Hm, I got the impression they wanted to bring her back and siphon her energy.  I missed where they said they could kill her.  Considering the ending, it seems like Janet can just go all Green Mile, so that made me think their mission was all for naught and they could have chilled the fuck out for a day or two to see if Janet had the energy they needed.  Made all the worse by the post-credit scene where apparently Ant Man can just hop into the Quantum Realm and capture the energy in a jar.  Granted, Foster didn't know all this but it seems like he could have approached the situation in a more intelligent way.

HalloweenJack

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2018, 07:27:08 PM »
from The Daily Beast

"Instead of helping Ava find a way to cope (and not necessarily eradicate) her disability, the film seeks to provide a cure. It does so with its own version of “white science,” a term coined by author Carol Clover in her psychoanalytic exploration of horror films, Men, Women, and Chainsaws. It refers to anything considered to be “Western traditional medicine,” usually dispensed or controlled by a white man. The quantum realm functions as this film’s white science, a magical but wholly scientific world discovered by Hank Pym. Once she is freed from the realm, Janet offers to save Ava by transferring her quantum energy into her. She lays her hands on Ava—a technique often associated with tent revival preachers who “cured” poor, afflicted people by touch—and saves the woman through scientific technology.

One could say Janet’s benevolence absolves Hank of his sins [of white privilege], or posits her as a white savior for this disabled woman of color, but it’s unclear whether any of that is directly coded into the film."

I like how the argument here switches gears from the cure looks like “white science” to the cure looks like “tent revival preachers”. Healing by laying hands is not a white phenomenon, and you can see versions of it across cultures and religions. But uh... the word quantum is used, so it’s science... and a white person healed someone, so WHITE SCIENCE!

I also like the take that curing a dying person is somehow worse than helping them cope.


It's why I posted it  ;D

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2018, 10:06:38 PM »
Hm, I got the impression they wanted to bring her back and siphon her energy.  I missed where they said they could kill her.  Considering the ending, it seems like Janet can just go all Green Mile, so that made me think their mission was all for naught and they could have chilled the fuck out for a day or two to see if Janet had the energy they needed.  Made all the worse by the post-credit scene where apparently Ant Man can just hop into the Quantum Realm and capture the energy in a jar.  Granted, Foster didn't know all this but it seems like he could have approached the situation in a more intelligent way.

Well Pym did think he was a bit of a twit.

altoon

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2018, 01:41:08 AM »
Well Ben and Ghost had legitimate beef with Pym so they weren't going to consult with him

AP

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2018, 06:46:33 AM »
Well Ben and Ghost had legitimate beef with Pym so they weren't going to consult with him

And yet they still needed his tech and knowledge.  They proved they weren't really the villain types when Foster thought Hank was having a heart attack or when they decided not to go after the Lang family.  At the end, when they realized the Pyms can easily help them out, they were pretty damn quick to forget any beef they had.  It seemed like the villains were tacked on just for the sake of having villains.

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2018, 12:40:50 PM »
I don't know what point you are talking about. They didn't have a change of heart until Ghost was pretty much out of time and Janet said she can help her. Do you mean the end credit scene? I'm guessing in between Hank apologized and stopped being such a dick since Janet is back.

AP

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2018, 01:23:34 PM »
Yeah, the end credit scene.  Maybe Hank stopped being a dick or they just decided "This dick can help us" and accepted his help.

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2018, 01:52:42 PM »
We don't really know how much Ghost and Foster has forgiven them since we don't see them. We just know the family is helping them and even if Ghost and Foster are holding a grudge I don't see why they wouldn't accept their help or why Scott and crew wouldn't help them.

AP

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2018, 02:55:00 PM »
We just know the family is helping them and even if Ghost and Foster are holding a grudge I don't see why they wouldn't accept their help or why Scott and crew wouldn't help them.

Exactly.  There's no reason for them not to accept their help nor why the Pyms wouldn't be willing to help.  It makes them look idiotic.  We know both Ghost and Foster are intelligent and they're not crazy (Ghost is desperate and kinda unhinged due to chronic pain and her looming death, but she isn't that unhinged).  So it makes me wonder why they didn't come to a more rational conclusion.  Certainly the writers could have come up with something better.

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2018, 03:21:04 PM »
Well I can see why Foster wouldn't want to ask directly since he and Pym didn't work well together, Foster was pretty sure he had to siphon off Janet's quantum energy, and he knew Pym would just try and stop him. None of that got resolved until Janet showed up and fixed everything. Basically the problem is that Foster put Ghost ahead of Janet and vice versa.

Granted the writers could have probably come up with something better but I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that being the reason for the conflict.

Thanos6

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2018, 04:22:47 AM »
It was certainly much better handled than the second "Pirates Of The Caribbean" movie, where there was absolutely no reason Jack and Will couldn't work together.
Truten forever!

AP

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Re: Ant-man and Wasp (spoilers) discussion
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2018, 06:01:01 AM »
Well I can see why Foster wouldn't want to ask directly since he and Pym didn't work well together, Foster was pretty sure he had to siphon off Janet's quantum energy, and he knew Pym would just try and stop him. None of that got resolved until Janet showed up and fixed everything. Basically the problem is that Foster put Ghost ahead of Janet and vice versa.

Granted the writers could have probably come up with something better but I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that being the reason for the conflict.

When I bring up the writers, I feel like they could have thrown in some initial misunderstanding or something early on.  They initially set things up as a mystery with the heroes trying to figure out who Ghost works for, but that mystery only lasts for a few minutes, so they could have used that time to set things up differently.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 07:48:52 AM by AP »