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Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2018, 11:40:36 PM »
I don't think any of them were lying. You're the one insisting that we should reject one of these statements as an outright falsehood, but I'm happy to accept them all (especially the two in the story) as being truthful in their own way.

So Superman was weakened and not weakened at the same time?

No, one or the other, but we don't know which.

Because you're essentially saying just that.

On what basis was Batman right there?

My rule of thumb with highly credible characters like Batman is that I generally accept what they say as likely true, unless I have good reason not to.

The various equivocal statements, even stacked up together, cannot outweigh Batman's unequivocal statement, because they neither confirm nor deny what he said.

Yes, they do. Superman was already showing weakness when he was flying slowly and asked Power Girl if she was feeling anything in the air while wondering about kryptonite poisoning.

These statements were both ambiguous, Abhi. Do you know what the word "ambiguous" means?

KC Superman capitalised on Billy having to power up and down each time he summoned a Shazam bolt. If Billy could've remained in his superpowered form the whole time (like he can when he charges his fists with magic lightning), Superman would've been up shit creek without a paddle.

I would like to see where the lightning he summons to amp his strikes is equal to a full power Shazam bolt.

Superman tanked full power Shazam bolts without much issue. Lightning amped punches are nothing compared to that.

Lightning-charged punches have actually knocked Superman out. When have Shazam bolts managed that?

Like when Billy failed to KO Batman with a Shazam bolt?

Under Loeb he didn't show he could amp his punches with lightning.

How does that negate the weakass showing Billy's Shazam bolt had there?

The majority of time the lightning bolts are far more powerful than lightning amped punches. In WWIII Black Adam incapacitated J'onn with one lightning bolt,

WW3 Black Adam? You mean the one you've insisted had Isis' power added to his own?

Captain Marvel split Obsidian in half with a Shazam bolt who was overpowering him otherwise.

Sounds like you have maybe one impressive showing for a standard Shazam bolt then. What issue did that happen in, so I can see it for myself?

Incidentally, you made a point earlier that I failed to debunk as thoroughly as I should have. You claimed a Shazam bolt is "Cap's total power concentrated in a lightning bolt"... but how can that be, when Billy is able to summon those bolts when he's already powered up?

He was reacting as he might've done if the magic weakness applied to him. That was the point of that performance; to briefly fool Black Adam and the reader into thinking he did have that weakness.

Crying in pain is now an indication that Black Adam could've taken down SBP with a lightning charged punch?

You're one step away from writing fanfiction now.

The scene implies that that's how SBP would've reacted to Adam's lightning-charged punches if he'd possessed Superman's vulnerability to magic.

Those punches (especially the first one) had a decent affect on Superman. An attack doesn't have to KO an opponent, or leave him dazed on the ground, to be considered effective.

Because Superman was caught off guard by Shazam's strength.

Later he wasn't even knocked down by the lightning punch.

I wouldn't expect them to send each other flying with every punch.

And I didn't say he was weaker, I said I'm not sure he's as strong as post-Crisis Billy.

Meaning he is weaker without any proof whatsoever.

No, meaning I'm undecided as to whether he's equal or not.

We don't know. We don't know for sure how Jurgens views the magic weakness, whether he thought it was a factor in the Captain Thunder fight, or whether he thought it would've been more of a factor if Captain Thunder had used magic lightning.

Yes, we do. Jurgens has written Superman for nearly 200 issues and you think he has never shown Superman and his magic weakness?

This is just pathetic now. Somehow Superman just lost his magic vulnerability when it suits Shuruku.

Jurgens clearly believes in the magic weakness. He's occasionally acknowledged it in his stories, and he acknowledged it when he said in an interview that Superman would lose to Thor. What we don't know is whether he thought it was a factor in Superman's fights with Captain Marvel or Captain Thunder, and whether or not the use of magic lightning would've made it a more significant factor.

We don't know whether magic lightning would be a significant factor in Thor beating Superman, as far as Jurgens is concerned, but it's a distinct possibility, especially if Jurgens has been influenced by stories like KINGDOM COME.

How's it a distinct possibility? Where did Jurgens show he was influenced by Kingdom Come?

Are you just saying nonsense just for the hope that I would accept it on your word?

You seem to be confusing the word "possibility" with the word "certainty". I don't need to prove that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME, since I only said it was a possibility that he was. And of course it's a possibility he was influenced by it, since it was a high profile story put out by the company he was working for at the time, and at least one other writer, Judd Winick, was clearly influenced by it. Probably Morrison and Johns too.

Billy's statement that he "consumed" the Wizard's power implies he had the ability to drain that power before he did so. And you appeared to be suggesting that the Wizard's lightning transferred to Billy as soon as the Wizard was turned to stone, but what we were shown on the page contradicts that.

Or he already had Wizard's power which he used to drain Adam's power.

How did Billy "consume" the Wizard's power?

Wait, are you suggesting he gained Wizard's power between punching Superman and draining Adam?

Nope. He presumably had the ability to drain Adam's power from the start of that scene, but we don't know why he had that ability.

In other words, you don't know whether the lightning has gone back to the Wizard on other occasions or not, but you're assuming it hasn't.

The fuck? We have seen Cap turning back into Billy countless times and there has been no instance of that power returning back to Shazam.

You're essentially asking me to disprove your theory.

No, I'm asking you to prove your own statement that "Billy saying Shazam has never flowed lightning back to Wizard before or after".

You mean the rock Adam shattered with his bare hands?

Yeah, a plot device. What does that has to do with anything?

Since Adam was able to shatter the rock with his bare hands, it can't have been all that durable. And Billy didn't seem especially hurt by being struck with the rock. He seemed more hurt by the punches to the face he took from Adam later in the fight.

We don't know, but I've already proposed the possibility that the gluttony demon might've had something to do with it.

And here you go again with presenting your assumptions as a proof.

Cap had Wizard's power already at that point, he used it to strip Adam of his power and when he said Shazam the power returned to Wizard.

Have you ever heard of Occam's razor in your life?

Sure, but the idea that gluttony demon allowed Billy to absorb Adam's power is simpler and more sensible than the idea that all the Wizard's power was automatically sent to Billy, which doesn't make much sense for several reasons.

1) We saw the moment the Wizard was turned to stone, and no lightning was shown leaving him.

2) The Seven Deadly Enemies of Man weren't instantly freed when the Wizard was turned to stone, which they should've been if all the Wizard's power had been sent to Billy.

3) There's no obvious reason why all the Wizard's power would automatically leave him as a result of him being turned to stone.

4) Even if the Wizard's power did leave him as a result of him being turned to stone, there's no obvious reason why it'd all go to Billy, rather than being shared between him, Mary and Freddy.

Yup. The power of Shazam is the Wizard's power -- the clue's in the name -- so it makes sense that it goes back to him when the Marvels aren't using it.

Haha, seriously? So Shazam is powerless whenever Marvels use their power?

We've definitely seen him use the power of Shazam at the same time as the Marvels, but it's unclear whether he always retains a fixed amount of power when the Marvels are powered up, or whether he taps into what he needs when he needs it.

It was Wizard's own power which flowed back to him.

There's no dispute that it was the Wizard's own power. The question is whether Billy consumed power directly from the Wizard himself, and if he did, when.

There's no direct confirmation that Billy was playing possum, but the way he looks and behaves when he opens is eyes is more consistent with someone who was playing possum, than someone who was genuinely regaining consciousness. Also, the idea that a top-tier like Captain Marvel would be knocked out by being thrown into a sand dune seems a bit far-fetched.

Again using your assumptions as a proof.

But hey Cap was so weak that he needed to transform back into Billy to lure Batman so that he could beat Bruce because obviously straight up he had no chance at all.

Or maybe he just thought it'd be fun to take Batman down that way. But keep insisting that a top-tier character getting knocked out by being thrown into a sand dune is the most sensible way to interpret that scene.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 01:18:58 AM by The Shuruku Demon »

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2018, 02:14:14 AM »
How so?

Because it's not a slugfest as per its definition here on ICT.

But the ICT definition isn't the only definition, as we've already discussed. Something wrong with your memory?

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/slugfest

slugfest in American

noun Informal

1. a fight or boxing match characterized by much heavy punching


None of those includes magical lightning amped punches.

And on ICT, yes it is.
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Why are you so reluctant to clarify your stance on whether Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back?

I'm not reluctant. I already gave you enough chance which you wasted.

Now I accepted your concession. Move along.

I'd have an easier time believing you aren't reluctant to explain your stance (on whether Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back) if you actually went ahead and explained it, rather than continually refusing to do so.


Nope, already accepted your concession. There is nothing you can do now.
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Because if Billy didn't expect the light to go out, it necessarily follows that he was surprised when that happened. So was Billy expecting the light to go out?

You're not answering my question. Why would Cap be surprised by Superman punching him?

Because his attention may have been elsewhere at the time. Was Billy expecting the light to go out?


Why would that make Superman punching him a surprise? He already had Superman in a hold.
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So you now accept that Quex-Ul was incorrectly coloured in the first panel of the second page here? Because you denied it at the time, and claimed the character shown in that panel was Superman.

No, I just brought your hypocrisy when you claim the art is superior to the dialog when it suits you.

I never said art is superior to dialogue. You just can't stop putting words in people's mouthes in this thread.


So you accept that Cap had serious injuries despite art not showing that?

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Fire never said Billy was "almost killed"; you put those words in her mouth.

She said it's a wonder he was alive. Same thing.

If you truly believed it meant the same thing, you wouldn't feel the need to keep changing the words Fire used.


No, I am not changing them now.

Cap being alive itself was a wonder.
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The fact that Eclipso didn't kill anyone in that issue doesn't prove that he didn't intend to. He clearly expressed the intent to do so, but was interrupted or deterred from doing so each time he had a character at his mercy.

Yet it didn't amount much when Lar Gand tried to kill Superman.

I wonder how you will spin that.

Now you're jumping to a different point, because you're losing the one we're discussing. Eclipso repeatedly expressed the intent to kill in that issue, but kept getting interrupted each time he had someone at his mercy.


So Superman gained an advantage because he tried to kill Cap but Lar Gand did not?

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==================================================

Eclipso speaking to Booster Gold: "Normally I would possess you, but I promised Superman I would kill someone. Goodbye, Booster." (Fire intervenes just as Eclipso is about to kill Booster.)
https://imgur.com/oM95Tyj.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Fire: "Pathetic wastes! You all deserve to die."
https://imgur.com/03NwCD4.jpg

Eclipso is about kill Fire when he's interrupted by Captain Marvel.
https://imgur.com/uHEhPA4.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Captain Marvel: "You really don't understand, do you!? Superman no longer exists! And soon, neither will you!"
https://imgur.com/CAyKsXG.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Captain Marvel: "DIE, MARVEL!!!!"
https://imgur.com/8wdiSBs.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Captain Marvel: "You destroyed the little fishing village but you missed the big fish! That mistake will cost you your li-- eh? Damn, that cursed light still works! Killing you isn't worth losing this body! Consider yourself lucky, Marvel."
https://imgur.com/tpDneFq.jpg

==================================================

Eclipso was out to kill Billy, and you know it.


Then how do you explain Lar Gand trying the same on Superman only to fail miserably?

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A surprise may be a surprise, but the source of the surprise makes all the difference in the world in respect to whether a character deserves sole credit for a win, or whether they were assisted by an outside factor.

Yet, a surprise is a surprise. Cap surprised Superman blatantly. So did Surfer against Bill.

Superman didn't surprise Cap.

Do you recognise the difference between a character surprising an opponent with their own skill/power, and a character taking advantage of an outside distraction?


No, a surprise is a surprise. Like Cap surprising Superman.
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We should accept that Eclipso wasn't visible for four panels, and that we don't know where he was or what he did in those panels.

Yes we do. He was inside the hold until you can prove otherwise.

Your assumptions aren't proof.

Says the man who's making assumptions about where Eclipso was in panels where Eclipso wasn't visible.


Being not visible does not mean Superman just broke free of the hold when he couldn't previously.

But maybe he teleported out of the choke hold?
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If you misremembered what Fire said, that's fine, but why don't you stop misquoting her from now on?

It doesn't matter. Cap being alive itself was a wonder.

In Fire's opinion, sure.


In Bloodwynd too. But I like how it's just an opinion now.
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What exactly did Eclipso say or do to indicate that he didn't know how powerful Superman was?

He indicated he learned all of Superman's strength and weaknesses. Yet Superman powered through his weaknesses and beat him.

Superman beating Eclipso doesn't mean Eclipso was wrong about his power level. There are other reasons why someone can win a fight other than raw power, and if you think raw power is all Superman has going for him, you clearly don't think much of the character.


Tell me about what made Superman beat Lar Gand then?

Obviously Superman saying he underestimated how tough he was has nothing to do with power.
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Come to think of it, it makes me wonder why you believe a powerless Superman is capable of beating the Green Goblin in a prep war. You haven't replied to that thread in a week, BTW. What's up with that?
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg367810#msg367810


I was waiting on when would you bring that up. And how many times would you do that.

You're pathetic.
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Yes, Billy said "I tried to do this the easy way" early on, and then much later in the fight said Eclipso-Supes was forcing him to start getting rough, suggesting he'd been holding back up to then.

Cap was holding back while doing it the hard way? Based on?

Based on him saying that he was being forced to start getting rough much later in the fight.


But that didn't change anything on how he affected Superman.
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And there's nothing outlandish about suggesting that a superhero was holding back in a fight, especially when fighting another hero. Holding back in fights is the default modus operandi for most superheroes, and as a relatively naïve, teenage boy, we shouldn't be surprised that Billy Batson is even less ruthless than the average, adult hero. Your line of argument here suggests you have little or no understanding of superhero psychology.

So did we see any different outcome when Cap started to play rough?

Or was Cap still holding back?

Perhaps he was. A character starting to "get rough" doesn't necessarily mean they're going all out. It just means they're stepping it up a gear. Did Billy step it up to his highest gear there? I don't know. He only landed two more punches on-panel, at any rate.


So he was holding back while playing rough. Wow, the characters always hold back when you argue for them, don't they?
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Superman may not have been going to kill, he wasn't necessarily holding back in terms of the force he was putting behind his attacks, or holding back as much Billy did in any event.

And here you are saying Superman was not holding back yet not going for the kill.

Where did you get that Superman wasn't holding back?

He was fighting for his life, and didn't have much time. Did you miss that part of the story?


So he was trying to kill Lar?
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And by your logic, you don't need to intend to kill for going all out. Yet you argued that Silver Surfer wasn't going all out when he said so against Thor because he wasn't trying to kill Thor.

You're misrepresenting my argument, as you so often do. Here's a direct quote of my reasoning on whether the Surfer went all-out against Thor or not in Blood & Thunder:

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=17681.msg353465#msg353465

Shuruku: "I don't know for a fact whether he went all out or not (and neither do you). But I don't think he went all out, for the aforementioned reasons:

1) He didn't say he was going all out.
2) I don't believe his motivation was sufficient to make him go all out.
3) He was likely already hurt by that point."


So Superman was going all out but Surfer didn't. Are you denying this isn't your argument?

Superman wasn't hurt or asphyxiating?
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The Hulk didn't look stronger for most of the fight. It was very back & forth, and we saw them locking up evenly at one point. The Hulk didn't gain the upper hand until he hit Thor while Thor's head was turned to look at the oncoming train. The Hulk may've been stronger by then, but as much as anything else, I got the impression Thor was tiring and being worn down more than the Hulk was.

So Hulk may be stronger than Thor based on a surprise attack but Superman and Cap were definitely equal because he punched Cap while his head wasn't even turned?

I never said Superman and Captain Marvel were definitely equal.


So who was stronger? The guy who lost?
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Erik Larsen flat out said he was showing Hulk stronger than Thor in Thor 385.

But Erik was only the penciller in THOR #385. Jim Shooter and Stan Lee are the ones who wrote it. Erik did get to write the 2001 Hulk annual though, and the Hulk's strength edge was much clearer in that.


And he showed it by showing Hulk rearrange Thor's face.

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I don't think Superman was trying to kill Lar, but you can use your full strength (or a large proportion of it) against an opponent without intending to kill them. And it helps if the opponent is stronger than you are, and moreso if you know that reasoning with them isn't an option, and that you have to take them down as quickly as possible in order to survive yourself. Superman definitely outperformed Billy in that story though, and I've openly acknowledged that for years:
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=3456.msg66535#msg66535

So if I'm getting this right Superman can go all out or use a large proportion of his strength while not going for the kill but Silver Surfer was definitely holding back because he wasn't trying to kill Thor.

You're getting it wrong, because I never said the Surfer definitely held back toward the end of his battle with Thor in Blood & Thunder.


So either both Superman and Surfer were holding back or both weren't.

You need to give a straight answer. You can't have it both ways.
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Oh and Cap was definitely holding back but Superman wasn't. And Superman benefits from trying to kill Cap but Lar Gand did not.

At no point did I claim Eclipso didn't fight as hard against Superman as he did against Captain Marvel. He was likely fighting equally hard in both cases.


So Superman>Captain Marvel because Lar Gand >Captain Marvel.

Wouldn't you agree?

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So are you trying to say Captain Marvel was more powerful than Lar Gand? Because if Eclipsed Superman was going all out he took a lot more time to defeat Cap than a holding back Superman did to beat Lar Gand.

I believe Lar was supposed to be more powerful than either Superman or Captain Marvel, based on what Eclipso said. But Superman had to defeat Eclipso-Lar as quickly as possible, since he was in danger of asphyxiating at any moment. Eclipso-Supes wanted to kill Billy, but he didn't need to end the fight in an almighty hurry the way Superman did.
So Eclipso Superman was not hitting Cap as hard as normal Superman against Lar Gand?

You can't even keep your own logic straight.

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2018, 02:30:36 AM »
I don't think any of them were lying. You're the one insisting that we should reject one of these statements as an outright falsehood, but I'm happy to accept them all (especially the two in the story) as being truthful in their own way.

So Superman was weakened and not weakened at the same time?

No, one or the other, but we don't know which.


But you have a straight answer from Batman. Why are you backing away now?
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Because you're essentially saying just that.

On what basis was Batman right there?

My rule of thumb with highly credible characters like Batman is that I generally accept what they say as likely true, unless I have good reason not to.


It's just Batman opinion. Like Fire opinion.
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The various equivocal statements, even stacked up together, cannot outweigh Batman's unequivocal statement, because they neither confirm nor deny what he said.

Yes, they do. Superman was already showing weakness when he was flying slowly and asked Power Girl if she was feeling anything in the air while wondering about kryptonite poisoning.

These statements were both ambiguous, Abhi. Do you know what the word "ambiguous" means?


How does Superman flying slowly ambiguous? Or asking Power Girl if she felt anything in air?

What was he asking PG about?
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KC Superman capitalised on Billy having to power up and down each time he summoned a Shazam bolt. If Billy could've remained in his superpowered form the whole time (like he can when he charges his fists with magic lightning), Superman would've been up shit creek without a paddle.

I would like to see where the lightning he summons to amp his strikes is equal to a full power Shazam bolt.

Superman tanked full power Shazam bolts without much issue. Lightning amped punches are nothing compared to that.

Lightning-charged punches have actually knocked Superman out. When have Shazam bolts managed that?


By surprise and Cap got lucky? Get out with this nonsense.
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Like when Billy failed to KO Batman with a Shazam bolt?

Under Loeb he didn't show he could amp his punches with lightning.

How does that negate the weakass showing Billy's Shazam bolt had there?


Because we have nothing to compare it against lightning amped punches.
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The majority of time the lightning bolts are far more powerful than lightning amped punches. In WWIII Black Adam incapacitated J'onn with one lightning bolt,

WW3 Black Adam? You mean the one you've insisted had Isis' power added to his own?


So only his Shazam bolt was amped but not his lightning amped punches?

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Captain Marvel split Obsidian in half with a Shazam bolt who was overpowering him otherwise.

Sounds like you have maybe one impressive showing for a standard Shazam bolt then. What issue did that happen in, so I can see it for myself?


JSA Princes of Darkness. And there are multiple such instances.
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Incidentally, you made a point earlier that I failed to debunk as thoroughly as I should have. You claimed a Shazam bolt is "Cap's total power concentrated in a lightning bolt"... but how can that be, when Billy is able to summon those bolts when he's already powered up?


Eh, what?

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He was reacting as he might've done if the magic weakness applied to him. That was the point of that performance; to briefly fool Black Adam and the reader into thinking he did have that weakness.

Crying in pain is now an indication that Black Adam could've taken down SBP with a lightning charged punch?

You're one step away from writing fanfiction now.

The scene implies that that's how SBP would've reacted to Adam's lightning-charged punches if he'd possessed Superman's vulnerability to magic.


You mean crying in pain? How does that imply Adam would beat Prime?
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Those punches (especially the first one) had a decent affect on Superman. An attack doesn't have to KO an opponent, or leave him dazed on the ground, to be considered effective.

Because Superman was caught off guard by Shazam's strength.

Later he wasn't even knocked down by the lightning punch.

I wouldn't expect them to send each other flying with every punch.


Superman did.
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And I didn't say he was weaker, I said I'm not sure he's as strong as post-Crisis Billy.

Meaning he is weaker without any proof whatsoever.

No, meaning I'm undecided as to whether he's equal or not.


Meaning he is weaker. Because you would never say he was equal or stronger.
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We don't know. We don't know for sure how Jurgens views the magic weakness, whether he thought it was a factor in the Captain Thunder fight, or whether he thought it would've been more of a factor if Captain Thunder had used magic lightning.

Yes, we do. Jurgens has written Superman for nearly 200 issues and you think he has never shown Superman and his magic weakness?

This is just pathetic now. Somehow Superman just lost his magic vulnerability when it suits Shuruku.

Jurgens clearly believes in the magic weakness. He's occasionally acknowledged it in his stories, and he acknowledged it when he said in an interview that Superman would lose to Thor. What we don't know is whether he thought it was a factor in Superman's fights with Captain Marvel or Captain Thunder, and whether or not the use of magic lightning would've made it a more significant factor.


Superman already faced Shazam lightning bolt in Superman 102. Didn't make much of a difference.

So yes we know that it wouldn't make any difference.
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We don't know whether magic lightning would be a significant factor in Thor beating Superman, as far as Jurgens is concerned, but it's a distinct possibility, especially if Jurgens has been influenced by stories like KINGDOM COME.

How's it a distinct possibility? Where did Jurgens show he was influenced by Kingdom Come?

Are you just saying nonsense just for the hope that I would accept it on your word?

You seem to be confusing the word "possibility" with the word "certainty". I don't need to prove that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME, since I only said it was a possibility that he was. And of course it's a possibility he was influenced by it, since it was a high profile story put out by the company he was working for at the time, and at least one other writer, Judd Winick, was clearly influenced by it. Probably Morrison and Johns too.


So you just need to throw random claims and don't have to prove them because it's a possibility and I have to accept it totally negates my point?

Are you sure you are not a troll? Because this is just trolling now.
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Billy's statement that he "consumed" the Wizard's power implies he had the ability to drain that power before he did so. And you appeared to be suggesting that the Wizard's lightning transferred to Billy as soon as the Wizard was turned to stone, but what we were shown on the page contradicts that.

Or he already had Wizard's power which he used to drain Adam's power.

How did Billy "consume" the Wizard's power?


Off panel. Not shown.
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Wait, are you suggesting he gained Wizard's power between punching Superman and draining Adam?

Nope. He presumably had the ability to drain Adam's power from the start of that scene, but we don't know why he had that ability.


Yes, we do. He had Wizard power.
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In other words, you don't know whether the lightning has gone back to the Wizard on other occasions or not, but you're assuming it hasn't.

The fuck? We have seen Cap turning back into Billy countless times and there has been no instance of that power returning back to Shazam.

You're essentially asking me to disprove your theory.

No, I'm asking you to prove your own statement that "Billy saying Shazam has never flowed lightning back to Wizard before or after".


Because it has never been shown? Do you really want me to show Cap turning to Billy in front of Wizard now?
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You mean the rock Adam shattered with his bare hands?

Yeah, a plot device. What does that has to do with anything?

Since Adam was able to shatter the rock with his bare hands, it can't have been all that durable. And Billy didn't seem especially hurt by being struck with the rock. He seemed more hurt by the punches to the face he took from Adam later in the fight.


It's a plot device troll.

It's durability has nothing to do with its power.
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We don't know, but I've already proposed the possibility that the gluttony demon might've had something to do with it.

And here you go again with presenting your assumptions as a proof.

Cap had Wizard's power already at that point, he used it to strip Adam of his power and when he said Shazam the power returned to Wizard.

Have you ever heard of Occam's razor in your life?

Sure, but the idea that gluttony demon allowed Billy to absorb Adam's power is simpler and more sensible than the idea that all the Wizard's power was automatically sent to Billy, which doesn't make much sense for several reasons.

1) We saw the moment the Wizard was turned to stone, and no lightning was shown leaving him.

2) The Seven Deadly Enemies of Man weren't instantly freed when the Wizard was turned to stone, which they should've been if all the Wizard's power had been sent to Billy.

3) There's no obvious reason why all the Wizard's power would automatically leave him as a result of him being turned to stone.

4) Even if the Wizard's power did leave him as a result of him being turned to stone, there's no obvious reason why it'd all go to Billy, rather than being shared between him, Mary and Freddy.


So many mental gymnastics.

I already explained to you how it was shown troll. No need to repeat it.
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Yup. The power of Shazam is the Wizard's power -- the clue's in the name -- so it makes sense that it goes back to him when the Marvels aren't using it.

Haha, seriously? So Shazam is powerless whenever Marvels use their power?

We've definitely seen him use the power of Shazam at the same time as the Marvels, but it's unclear whether he always retains a fixed amount of power when the Marvels are powered up, or whether he taps into what he needs when he needs it.


So Shazam gives his powers to marvels? Are you sure?
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It was Wizard's own power which flowed back to him.

There's no dispute that it was the Wizard's own power. The question is whether Billy consumed power directly from the Wizard himself, and if he did, when.


Before draining Adam or punching Superman.
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There's no direct confirmation that Billy was playing possum, but the way he looks and behaves when he opens is eyes is more consistent with someone who was playing possum, than someone who was genuinely regaining consciousness. Also, the idea that a top-tier like Captain Marvel would be knocked out by being thrown into a sand dune seems a bit far-fetched.

Again using your assumptions as a proof.

But hey Cap was so weak that he needed to transform back into Billy to lure Batman so that he could beat Bruce because obviously straight up he had no chance at all.

Or maybe he just thought it'd be fun to take Batman down that way. But keep insisting that a top-tier character getting knocked out by being thrown into a sand dune is the most sensible way to interpret that scene.
That's hardly the most absurd scene in a Loeb book.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2018, 12:37:10 AM »
But the ICT definition isn't the only definition, as we've already discussed. Something wrong with your memory?

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/slugfest

slugfest in American

noun Informal

1. a fight or boxing match characterized by much heavy punching

None of those includes magical lightning amped punches.

The dictionary definition doesn't preclude the use of lightning-charged punches though. So yes, my thread title is consistent with the dictionary definition of the word.

I'd have an easier time believing you aren't reluctant to explain your stance (on whether Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back) if you actually went ahead and explained it, rather than continually refusing to do so.

Nope, already accepted your concession. There is nothing you can do now.

I can keep pointing out that you're refusing to explain your implicit assertion that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back. But feel free to keep blatantly ducking the point. I don't mind, as long as I'm exposing the fact that you're doing it.

Because his attention may have been elsewhere at the time. Was Billy expecting the light to go out?

Why would that make Superman punching him a surprise? He already had Superman in a hold.

If a character is struck while they were distracted by an outside factor, then they were surprised. For the seventh time now: Was Billy expecting the light to go out?

I never said art is superior to dialogue. You just can't stop putting words in people's mouthes in this thread.

So you accept that Cap had serious injuries despite art not showing that?

I accept that Billy's injuries were enough to keep him from active duty for a while, but that doesn't require him to have had near-fatal injuries, and his condition shortly after the fight isn't consistent with him having near-fatal injuries. It's not just the art either. The writer is the one who scripted Billy flying shortly after his fight with Eclipso-Supes, standing on his own two legs, and speaking steadily and coherently. That was clearly intentional by the writer, and not something comparable to a colouring error.

If you truly believed it meant the same thing, you wouldn't feel the need to keep changing the words Fire used.

No, I am not changing them now.

Cap being alive itself was a wonder.

From Fire's POV, yes it was.

Now you're jumping to a different point, because you're losing the one we're discussing. Eclipso repeatedly expressed the intent to kill in that issue, but kept getting interrupted each time he had someone at his mercy.

So Superman gained an advantage because he tried to kill Cap but Lar Gand did not?

I expect Eclipso was fighting equally hard in Lar Gand's body as he was in Superman's body.

==================================================

Eclipso speaking to Booster Gold: "Normally I would possess you, but I promised Superman I would kill someone. Goodbye, Booster." (Fire intervenes just as Eclipso is about to kill Booster.)
https://imgur.com/oM95Tyj.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Fire: "Pathetic wastes! You all deserve to die."
https://imgur.com/03NwCD4.jpg

Eclipso is about kill Fire when he's interrupted by Captain Marvel.
https://imgur.com/uHEhPA4.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Captain Marvel: "You really don't understand, do you!? Superman no longer exists! And soon, neither will you!"
https://imgur.com/CAyKsXG.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Captain Marvel: "DIE, MARVEL!!!!"
https://imgur.com/8wdiSBs.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Captain Marvel: "You destroyed the little fishing village but you missed the big fish! That mistake will cost you your li-- eh? Damn, that cursed light still works! Killing you isn't worth losing this body! Consider yourself lucky, Marvel."
https://imgur.com/tpDneFq.jpg

==================================================

Eclipso was out to kill Billy, and you know it.

Then how do you explain Lar Gand trying the same on Superman only to fail miserably?

Superman stopped him. Duh. Do you accept that Eclipso was out to kill Billy though?

Do you recognise the difference between a character surprising an opponent with their own skill/power, and a character taking advantage of an outside distraction?

No, a surprise is a surprise. Like Cap surprising Superman.

You can't see the difference between a character achieving something on their own, and an outside factor doing it for them?

Says the man who's making assumptions about where Eclipso was in panels where Eclipso wasn't visible.

Being not visible does not mean Superman just broke free of the hold when he couldn't previously.

But maybe he teleported out of the choke hold?

I didn't say Eclipso-Supes broke free, or teleported free or whatever. I just said we don't know where he was in the four panels where he wasn't visible.

In Fire's opinion, sure.

In Bloodwynd too. But I like how it's just an opinion now.

Bloodwynd didn't say it was a wonder Billy wasn't killed.

Superman beating Eclipso doesn't mean Eclipso was wrong about his power level. There are other reasons why someone can win a fight other than raw power, and if you think raw power is all Superman has going for him, you clearly don't think much of the character.

Tell me about what made Superman beat Lar Gand then?

Obviously Superman saying he underestimated how tough he was has nothing to do with power.

Sure it has to do with power. I'm not saying Superman's powers didn't help him win; of course they did. I just happen to think Superman has more going for him than his powers. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I should assume Superman's powers are the only reason he wins any fights, and that he has no skill, intestinal fortitude or willpower to go along with those powers. Is that what you believe?

Come to think of it, it makes me wonder why you believe a powerless Superman is capable of beating the Green Goblin in a prep war. You haven't replied to that thread in a week, BTW. What's up with that?
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg367810#msg367810

I was waiting on when would you bring that up. And how many times would you do that.

You're pathetic.

Not as pathetic as the arguments you made in that thread. Are you going to keep running away from that thread, or are you going to man up and either justify the positions you took there, or admit you were wrong?
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg367810#msg367810

Based on him saying that he was being forced to start getting rough much later in the fight.

But that didn't change anything on how he affected Superman.

What 's your point, Abhi? That Billy wasn't holding back in the first place?

Perhaps he was. A character starting to "get rough" doesn't necessarily mean they're going all out. It just means they're stepping it up a gear. Did Billy step it up to his highest gear there? I don't know. He only landed two more punches on-panel, at any rate.

So he was holding back while playing rough. Wow, the characters always hold back when you argue for them, don't they?

Superheroes are almost always holding back. That's the default presumption for anyone who understands superhero psychology.

He was fighting for his life, and didn't have much time. Did you miss that part of the story?

So he was trying to kill Lar?

I doubt that was his specific plan, but he may have felt that Lar could take a limited number of his best shots (or something close to his best) without necessarily dying.

You're misrepresenting my argument, as you so often do. Here's a direct quote of my reasoning on whether the Surfer went all-out against Thor or not in Blood & Thunder:

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=17681.msg353465#msg353465

Shuruku: "I don't know for a fact whether he went all out or not (and neither do you). But I don't think he went all out, for the aforementioned reasons:

1) He didn't say he was going all out.
2) I don't believe his motivation was sufficient to make him go all out.
3) He was likely already hurt by that point."

So Superman was going all out but Surfer didn't. Are you denying this isn't your argument?

I'm denying that I'm claiming either of those things definitively, yes.

Superman wasn't hurt or asphyxiating?

Superman was on the verge of asphyxiating, but he didn't obviously seem to be weakened by it.

I never said Superman and Captain Marvel were definitely equal.

So who was stronger? The guy who lost?

If either one was stronger, it was probably Superman, but they may've been equal in strength.

But Erik was only the penciller in THOR #385. Jim Shooter and Stan Lee are the ones who wrote it. Erik did get to write the 2001 Hulk annual though, and the Hulk's strength edge was much clearer in that.

And he showed it by showing Hulk rearrange Thor's face.

Bruising Thor's face, you mean. But that doesn't automatically make the Hulk stronger. He could've just been more durable.

You're getting it wrong, because I never said the Surfer definitely held back toward the end of his battle with Thor in Blood & Thunder.

So either both Superman and Surfer were holding back or both weren't.

You need to give a straight answer. You can't have it both ways.

You mean I can't argue that the Superman held back less against Eclipso than the Surfer did against Thor? Sure I can. Those were different fights with different circumstances. What goes for one doesn't necessarily go for the other.

At no point did I claim Eclipso didn't fight as hard against Superman as he did against Captain Marvel. He was likely fighting equally hard in both cases.

So Superman>Captain Marvel because Lar Gand >Captain Marvel.

Wouldn't you agree?

I'd agree that Superman outperformed Captain Marvel in that story. I said this already in this thread, and I've said it for years.
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=3456.msg66535#msg66535

I believe Lar was supposed to be more powerful than either Superman or Captain Marvel, based on what Eclipso said. But Superman had to defeat Eclipso-Lar as quickly as possible, since he was in danger of asphyxiating at any moment. Eclipso-Supes wanted to kill Billy, but he didn't need to end the fight in an almighty hurry the way Superman did.

So Eclipso Superman was not hitting Cap as hard as normal Superman against Lar Gand?

You can't even keep your own logic straight.

I didn't say Superman hit Eclipso-Lar harder than Eclipso-Supes hit Billy. I just said he was in more of a rush to end the fight as quickly as possible.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 01:08:58 AM by The Shuruku Demon »

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2018, 12:58:06 AM »
No, one or the other, but we don't know which.

But you have a straight answer from Batman. Why are you backing away now?

Unlike yours, my brain is capable of entertaining more than one possible interpretation of a story.

My rule of thumb with highly credible characters like Batman is that I generally accept what they say as likely true, unless I have good reason not to.

It's just Batman opinion. Like Fire opinion.

As incomprehensible as it may seem to you, I consider Batman to be a more credible source of information than Fire. Perhaps you disagree though. Perhaps you think she's just as intelligent, knowledgeable, and perceptive as he is, or even his superior in those areas. Perhaps Fire is actually the World's Greatest Detective, and Batman is a mere pretender to her throne.

These statements were both ambiguous, Abhi. Do you know what the word "ambiguous" means?

How does Superman flying slowly ambiguous?

Because Superman gave an explanation for why he flew slowly that had nothing to do with him being weakened. Did you miss that?

Or asking Power Girl if she felt anything in air?

What was he asking PG about?

I've gone over this in previous posts. I think Superman wanted to know whether PG felt any K-radiation in the air to help confirm whether there was any or not. The same way that if a person thought they heard something, they might ask someone nearby whether they heard anything to confirm they weren't imagining it.

Lightning-charged punches have actually knocked Superman out. When have Shazam bolts managed that?

By surprise and Cap got lucky? Get out with this nonsense.

Superman has been surprise-attacked by Shazam bolts too.




How does that negate the weakass showing Billy's Shazam bolt had there?

Because we have nothing to compare it against lightning amped punches.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here, Abhi, but let's face it, that was a shitty showing for an attack you've suggested is more powerful than any of Billy's punches. Amped punches, at that.

WW3 Black Adam? You mean the one you've insisted had Isis' power added to his own?

So only his Shazam bolt was amped but not his lightning amped punches?

I'm not saying Adam's Shazam bolt was amped, but you must presumably think it was, if you believe Adam's Shazam bolts contain all of his power, and that he had Isis' power added to his power at the time.

Sounds like you have maybe one impressive showing for a standard Shazam bolt then. What issue did that happen in, so I can see it for myself?

JSA Princes of Darkness. And there are multiple such instances.

So list them, and we'll examine each of them individually.

Incidentally, you made a point earlier that I failed to debunk as thoroughly as I should have. You claimed a Shazam bolt is "Cap's total power concentrated in a lightning bolt"... but how can that be, when Billy is able to summon those bolts when he's already powered up?

Eh, what?

Let's use an actual scene to illustrate the point. Here's Billy flying through the air in his powered up Captain Marvel form. Mary and Freddy hadn't been granted the power of Shazam yet, so Billy was presumably in possession of his total power there. And yet in the second panel, he summons a Shazam bolt from the sky, and you claimed Shazam bolts are "Cap's total power concentrated in a lightning bolt". So how does Cap's total power get to be in two different places at the same time?




The scene implies that that's how SBP would've reacted to Adam's lightning-charged punches if he'd possessed Superman's vulnerability to magic.

You mean crying in pain? How does that imply Adam would beat Prime?

It doesn't imply that Adam would beat SBP, but it implies that SBP would've been reeling from Adam's lightning-charged punches if he'd been vulnerable to magic. That was likely the point of establishing that SBP didn't have that weakness; to justify why he was so hard to take down, despite all the magic users on DC Earth.

I wouldn't expect them to send each other flying with every punch.

Superman did.

Superman only landed one punch.

No, meaning I'm undecided as to whether he's equal or not.

Meaning he is weaker. Because you would never say he was equal or stronger.

No, meaning I'm undecided. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

Jurgens clearly believes in the magic weakness. He's occasionally acknowledged it in his stories, and he acknowledged it when he said in an interview that Superman would lose to Thor. What we don't know is whether he thought it was a factor in Superman's fights with Captain Marvel or Captain Thunder, and whether or not the use of magic lightning would've made it a more significant factor.

Superman already faced Shazam lightning bolt in Superman 102. Didn't make much of a difference.

So yes we know that it wouldn't make any difference.

Scan?

You seem to be confusing the word "possibility" with the word "certainty". I don't need to prove that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME, since I only said it was a possibility that he was. And of course it's a possibility he was influenced by it, since it was a high profile story put out by the company he was working for at the time, and at least one other writer, Judd Winick, was clearly influenced by it. Probably Morrison and Johns too.

So you just need to throw random claims and don't have to prove them because it's a possibility and I have to accept it totally negates my point?

I'm allowed to say it's possible that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME without having to prove it, yes. And no, you don't have to accept the theory that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME, although you should accept that it's possible, unless you think it's impossible.

Nope. He presumably had the ability to drain Adam's power from the start of that scene, but we don't know why he had that ability.

Yes, we do. He had Wizard power.

Are you sure? How did he get it?

No, I'm asking you to prove your own statement that "Billy saying Shazam has never flowed lightning back to Wizard before or after".

Because it has never been shown?

The fact that something hasn't been shown doesn't mean it's never happened. We've never seen Peter Parker (or any anyone else) banging Mary Jane, but she still got pregnant. Do you figure it was an immaculate conception?

Do you really want me to show Cap turning to Billy in front of Wizard now?

Sure, go ahead.

Since Adam was able to shatter the rock with his bare hands, it can't have been all that durable. And Billy didn't seem especially hurt by being struck with the rock. He seemed more hurt by the punches to the face he took from Adam later in the fight.

It's a plot device troll.

It's durability has nothing to do with its power.

And it's durability had nothing to do with it's usefulness as a blunt instrument?

Sure, but the idea that gluttony demon allowed Billy to absorb Adam's power is simpler and more sensible than the idea that all the Wizard's power was automatically sent to Billy, which doesn't make much sense for several reasons.

1) We saw the moment the Wizard was turned to stone, and no lightning was shown leaving him.

2) The Seven Deadly Enemies of Man weren't instantly freed when the Wizard was turned to stone, which they should've been if all the Wizard's power had been sent to Billy.

3) There's no obvious reason why all the Wizard's power would automatically leave him as a result of him being turned to stone.

4) Even if the Wizard's power did leave him as a result of him being turned to stone, there's no obvious reason why it'd all go to Billy, rather than being shared between him, Mary and Freddy.

So many mental gymnastics.

I already explained to you how it was shown troll. No need to repeat it.

In other words, you're not going to make any attempt to counter my argument on this point.

We've definitely seen him use the power of Shazam at the same time as the Marvels, but it's unclear whether he always retains a fixed amount of power when the Marvels are powered up, or whether he taps into what he needs when he needs it.

So Shazam gives his powers to marvels? Are you sure?

Am I sure about something I said was unclear? No. That's why I said it was unclear.

There's no dispute that it was the Wizard's own power. The question is whether Billy consumed power directly from the Wizard himself, and if he did, when.

Before draining Adam or punching Superman.

Just because you say so? Or is there some reasoning behind that claim?

Or maybe he just thought it'd be fun to take Batman down that way. But keep insisting that a top-tier character getting knocked out by being thrown into a sand dune is the most sensible way to interpret that scene.

That's hardly the most absurd scene in a Loeb book.

It is a needlessly improbable interpretation though. The scene makes more sense if we go with the intepretation that Billy was playing possum.

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2018, 10:30:58 AM »
But the ICT definition isn't the only definition, as we've already discussed. Something wrong with your memory?

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/slugfest

slugfest in American

noun Informal

1. a fight or boxing match characterized by much heavy punching

None of those includes magical lightning amped punches.

The dictionary definition doesn't preclude the use of lightning-charged punches though. So yes, my thread title is consistent with the dictionary definition of the word.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.

It isn't slugfest. No matter how much you try to sell it as. You knew Cap doesn't stands a chance to win a standard slugfest.
Quote


I'd have an easier time believing you aren't reluctant to explain your stance (on whether Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back) if you actually went ahead and explained it, rather than continually refusing to do so.

Nope, already accepted your concession. There is nothing you can do now.

I can keep pointing out that you're refusing to explain your implicit assertion that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back. But feel free to keep blatantly ducking the point. I don't mind, as long as I'm exposing the fact that you're doing it.


You can do whatever you want. I gave you enough chances.

Your concession is already accepted. You lost, that's it.
Quote


Because his attention may have been elsewhere at the time. Was Billy expecting the light to go out?

Why would that make Superman punching him a surprise? He already had Superman in a hold.

If a character is struck while they were distracted by an outside factor, then they were surprised. For the seventh time now: Was Billy expecting the light to go out?


Why would that distract Cap? He already had Superman in his hold? As soon as Superman would break free, the element of surprise would be gone.

Quote


I never said art is superior to dialogue. You just can't stop putting words in people's mouthes in this thread.

So you accept that Cap had serious injuries despite art not showing that?

I accept that Billy's injuries were enough to keep him from active duty for a while, but that doesn't require him to have had near-fatal injuries, and his condition shortly after the fight isn't consistent with him having near-fatal injuries. It's not just the art either. The writer is the one who scripted Billy flying shortly after his fight with Eclipso-Supes, standing on his own two legs, and speaking steadily and coherently. That was clearly intentional by the writer, and not something comparable to a colouring error.


So you don't accept what the comic says?

People can go on before realizing the extent of their injuries. Or is Billy just a pussy that a few bruises kept him out of the fight for entire crossover?

Quote


If you truly believed it meant the same thing, you wouldn't feel the need to keep changing the words Fire used.

No, I am not changing them now.

Cap being alive itself was a wonder.

From Fire's POV, yes it was.


Which is writer POV.
Quote


Now you're jumping to a different point, because you're losing the one we're discussing. Eclipso repeatedly expressed the intent to kill in that issue, but kept getting interrupted each time he had someone at his mercy.

So Superman gained an advantage because he tried to kill Cap but Lar Gand did not?

I expect Eclipso was fighting equally hard in Lar Gand's body as he was in Superman's body.


So Superman must be stronger than Captain Marvel?

Why can't you ever give a straight answer but expect others to give you a straight answer?
Quote


==================================================

Eclipso speaking to Booster Gold: "Normally I would possess you, but I promised Superman I would kill someone. Goodbye, Booster." (Fire intervenes just as Eclipso is about to kill Booster.)
https://imgur.com/oM95Tyj.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Fire: "Pathetic wastes! You all deserve to die."
https://imgur.com/03NwCD4.jpg

Eclipso is about kill Fire when he's interrupted by Captain Marvel.
https://imgur.com/uHEhPA4.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Captain Marvel: "You really don't understand, do you!? Superman no longer exists! And soon, neither will you!"
https://imgur.com/CAyKsXG.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Captain Marvel: "DIE, MARVEL!!!!"
https://imgur.com/8wdiSBs.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Captain Marvel: "You destroyed the little fishing village but you missed the big fish! That mistake will cost you your li-- eh? Damn, that cursed light still works! Killing you isn't worth losing this body! Consider yourself lucky, Marvel."
https://imgur.com/tpDneFq.jpg

==================================================

Eclipso was out to kill Billy, and you know it.

Then how do you explain Lar Gand trying the same on Superman only to fail miserably?

Superman stopped him. Duh. Do you accept that Eclipso was out to kill Billy though?


So Superman>Captain Marvel? Wouldn't you agree?
Quote


Do you recognise the difference between a character surprising an opponent with their own skill/power, and a character taking advantage of an outside distraction?

No, a surprise is a surprise. Like Cap surprising Superman.

You can't see the difference between a character achieving something on their own, and an outside factor doing it for them?


The result is the same.
Quote


Says the man who's making assumptions about where Eclipso was in panels where Eclipso wasn't visible.

Being not visible does not mean Superman just broke free of the hold when he couldn't previously.

But maybe he teleported out of the choke hold?

I didn't say Eclipso-Supes broke free, or teleported free or whatever. I just said we don't know where he was in the four panels where he wasn't visible.


Why would he be somewhere else? Or do you think Superman straight up overpowered Cap from that position?
Quote


In Fire's opinion, sure.

In Bloodwynd too. But I like how it's just an opinion now.

Bloodwynd didn't say it was a wonder Billy wasn't killed.


He said Cap was injured enough to sit on the bench like the sissy he was. Courage of Achilles? More like cowardice of Shuruku.
Quote


Superman beating Eclipso doesn't mean Eclipso was wrong about his power level. There are other reasons why someone can win a fight other than raw power, and if you think raw power is all Superman has going for him, you clearly don't think much of the character.

Tell me about what made Superman beat Lar Gand then?

Obviously Superman saying he underestimated how tough he was has nothing to do with power.

Sure it has to do with power. I'm not saying Superman's powers didn't help him win; of course they did. I just happen to think Superman has more going for him than his powers. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I should assume Superman's powers are the only reason he wins any fights, and that he has no skill, intestinal fortitude or willpower to go along with those powers. Is that what you believe?

And you're saying Cap does not?

Yes, Superman has all those in spades. He is also prone to just overpower idiots like Captain Marvel and Lar Gand when it really matters.
Quote



Come to think of it, it makes me wonder why you believe a powerless Superman is capable of beating the Green Goblin in a prep war. You haven't replied to that thread in a week, BTW. What's up with that?
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg367810#msg367810

I was waiting on when would you bring that up. And how many times would you do that.

You're pathetic.

Not as pathetic as the arguments you made in that thread. Are you going to keep running away from that thread, or are you going to man up and either justify the positions you took there, or admit you were wrong?
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg367810#msg367810


No, far more pathetic.

How many times do you check if someone has responded to you?

You have my pity.
Quote


Based on him saying that he was being forced to start getting rough much later in the fight.

But that didn't change anything on how he affected Superman.

What 's your point, Abhi? That Billy wasn't holding back in the first place?


You tell me. You're the one who thinks Billy lost because he held back.
Quote


Perhaps he was. A character starting to "get rough" doesn't necessarily mean they're going all out. It just means they're stepping it up a gear. Did Billy step it up to his highest gear there? I don't know. He only landed two more punches on-panel, at any rate.

So he was holding back while playing rough. Wow, the characters always hold back when you argue for them, don't they?

Superheroes are almost always holding back. That's the default presumption for anyone who understands superhero psychology.


But only as long as you are arguing for them.

Quote


He was fighting for his life, and didn't have much time. Did you miss that part of the story?

So he was trying to kill Lar?

I doubt that was his specific plan, but he may have felt that Lar could take a limited number of his best shots (or something close to his best) without necessarily dying.


So Superman was going all out? Yes or no.
Quote


You're misrepresenting my argument, as you so often do. Here's a direct quote of my reasoning on whether the Surfer went all-out against Thor or not in Blood & Thunder:

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=17681.msg353465#msg353465

Shuruku: "I don't know for a fact whether he went all out or not (and neither do you). But I don't think he went all out, for the aforementioned reasons:

1) He didn't say he was going all out.
2) I don't believe his motivation was sufficient to make him go all out.
3) He was likely already hurt by that point."

So Superman was going all out but Surfer didn't. Are you denying this isn't your argument?

I'm denying that I'm claiming either of those things definitively, yes.


So Superman was either holding back or not holding back and Silver Surfer was either holding back or not holding back basis on what you think on a particular day or topic?

Wow, no wonder I used to call you what now I don't.

Don't expect a straight answer when you can't do it yourself.
Quote


Superman wasn't hurt or asphyxiating?

Superman was on the verge of asphyxiating, but he didn't obviously seem to be weakened by it.


Why? Characters get weaker in such conditions.
Quote


I never said Superman and Captain Marvel were definitely equal.

So who was stronger? The guy who lost?

If either one was stronger, it was probably Superman, but they may've been equal in strength.


Never a definite answer is there?

So Captain Marvel was as strong as Superman despite Superman being stated as the most powerful hero on earth twice in the crossover?

Quote


But Erik was only the penciller in THOR #385. Jim Shooter and Stan Lee are the ones who wrote it. Erik did get to write the 2001 Hulk annual though, and the Hulk's strength edge was much clearer in that.

And he showed it by showing Hulk rearrange Thor's face.

Bruising Thor's face, you mean. But that doesn't automatically make the Hulk stronger. He could've just been more durable.


Hulk's durablity was tied to his strength. He wasn't shown as Juggernaut type brick.

And no, it was definitely rearranging Thor's face.
Quote


You're getting it wrong, because I never said the Surfer definitely held back toward the end of his battle with Thor in Blood & Thunder.

So either both Superman and Surfer were holding back or both weren't.

You need to give a straight answer. You can't have it both ways.

You mean I can't argue that the Superman held back less against Eclipso than the Surfer did against Thor? Sure I can. Those were different fights with different circumstances. What goes for one doesn't necessarily go for the other.


So it's degrees of holding back now, eh? Where did you get that marvelous idea? From Jelly?
Quote


At no point did I claim Eclipso didn't fight as hard against Superman as he did against Captain Marvel. He was likely fighting equally hard in both cases.

So Superman>Captain Marvel because Lar Gand >Captain Marvel.

Wouldn't you agree?

I'd agree that Superman outperformed Captain Marvel in that story. I said this already in this thread, and I've said it for years.
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=3456.msg66535#msg66535


So Superman>Captain Marvel? How hard is it to accept that?
Quote


I believe Lar was supposed to be more powerful than either Superman or Captain Marvel, based on what Eclipso said. But Superman had to defeat Eclipso-Lar as quickly as possible, since he was in danger of asphyxiating at any moment. Eclipso-Supes wanted to kill Billy, but he didn't need to end the fight in an almighty hurry the way Superman did.

So Eclipso Superman was not hitting Cap as hard as normal Superman against Lar Gand?

You can't even keep your own logic straight.

I didn't say Superman hit Eclipso-Lar harder than Eclipso-Supes hit Billy. I just said he was in more of a rush to end the fight as quickly as possible.
So Eclipsed Superman was hitting Cap as hard as Lar Gand? Then it would show Captain Marvel>Lar Gand because Cap fought Superman far longer than Lar Gand did against Superman.

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2018, 10:58:24 AM »
No, one or the other, but we don't know which.

But you have a straight answer from Batman. Why are you backing away now?

Unlike yours, my brain is capable of entertaining more than one possible interpretation of a story.


That would mean you have a brain. You're little more than a spam bot at this point.

But why back away from your position now.
Quote


My rule of thumb with highly credible characters like Batman is that I generally accept what they say as likely true, unless I have good reason not to.

It's just Batman opinion. Like Fire opinion.

As incomprehensible as it may seem to you, I consider Batman to be a more credible source of information than Fire. Perhaps you disagree though. Perhaps you think she's just as intelligent, knowledgeable, and perceptive as he is, or even his superior in those areas. Perhaps Fire is actually the World's Greatest Detective, and Batman is a mere pretender to her throne.


The guy couldn't even figure out Billy Batson was Captain Marvel while working alongside him for years under Loeb.

Hardly Sherlock Holmes level detective.
Quote


These statements were both ambiguous, Abhi. Do you know what the word "ambiguous" means?

How does Superman flying slowly ambiguous?

Because Superman gave an explanation for why he flew slowly that had nothing to do with him being weakened. Did you miss that?


And even Toyman called bullshit on that.

But why would Superman ask Power Girl about feeling kryptonite in air?

Quote


Or asking Power Girl if she felt anything in air?

What was he asking PG about?

I've gone over this in previous posts. I think Superman wanted to know whether PG felt any K-radiation in the air to help confirm whether there was any or not. The same way that if a person thought they heard something, they might ask someone nearby whether they heard anything to confirm they weren't imagining it.


Why would Superman ask Power Girl about kryptonite? Is he unaware about what's kryptonite or how it affects him?

Quote


Lightning-charged punches have actually knocked Superman out. When have Shazam bolts managed that?

By surprise and Cap got lucky? Get out with this nonsense.

Superman has been surprise-attacked by Shazam bolts too.




A random lightning bolt from Shazam is equal to Shazam's lightning bolt which transformed Cap? Proof?
Quote


How does that negate the weakass showing Billy's Shazam bolt had there?

Because we have nothing to compare it against lightning amped punches.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here, Abhi, but let's face it, that was a shitty showing for an attack you've suggested is more powerful than any of Billy's punches. Amped punches, at that.


Not as shitty as Captain Marvel getting knocked out by getting thrown into sand.

You can't compare it to the amped punches because Loeb never showed those.
Quote


WW3 Black Adam? You mean the one you've insisted had Isis' power added to his own?

So only his Shazam bolt was amped but not his lightning amped punches?

I'm not saying Adam's Shazam bolt was amped, but you must presumably think it was, if you believe Adam's Shazam bolts contain all of his power, and that he had Isis' power added to his power at the time.


So? One lightning bolt incapacitated J'onn while it took several lightning amped punches to just knock him down later.
Quote


Sounds like you have maybe one impressive showing for a standard Shazam bolt then. What issue did that happen in, so I can see it for myself?

JSA Princes of Darkness. And there are multiple such instances.

So list them, and we'll examine each of them individually.


Why? Have you any scene suggesting lightning amped punches are more powerful than Shazam bolt?
Quote


Incidentally, you made a point earlier that I failed to debunk as thoroughly as I should have. You claimed a Shazam bolt is "Cap's total power concentrated in a lightning bolt"... but how can that be, when Billy is able to summon those bolts when he's already powered up?

Eh, what?

Let's use an actual scene to illustrate the point. Here's Billy flying through the air in his powered up Captain Marvel form. Mary and Freddy hadn't been granted the power of Shazam yet, so Billy was presumably in possession of his total power there. And yet in the second panel, he summons a Shazam bolt from the sky, and you claimed Shazam bolts are "Cap's total power concentrated in a lightning bolt". So how does Cap's total power get to be in two different places at the same time?




The lightning which transforms him back takes his power away. Or are you suggesting that Billy Batson tanks a lightning bolt every time he says Shazam?

Quote


The scene implies that that's how SBP would've reacted to Adam's lightning-charged punches if he'd possessed Superman's vulnerability to magic.

You mean crying in pain? How does that imply Adam would beat Prime?

It doesn't imply that Adam would beat SBP, but it implies that SBP would've been reeling from Adam's lightning-charged punches if he'd been vulnerable to magic. That was likely the point of establishing that SBP didn't have that weakness; to justify why he was so hard to take down, despite all the magic users on DC Earth.


Cryjng in pain is now reeling from Adam's lightning charged punches?

Boy, you got to read some comics.
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I wouldn't expect them to send each other flying with every punch.

Superman did.

Superman only landed one punch.


And he sent Shazam reeling as you said.
Quote


No, meaning I'm undecided as to whether he's equal or not.

Meaning he is weaker. Because you would never say he was equal or stronger.

No, meaning I'm undecided. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.


So in other words weaker. Because anyone losing to Superman is automatically weak.
Quote


Jurgens clearly believes in the magic weakness. He's occasionally acknowledged it in his stories, and he acknowledged it when he said in an interview that Superman would lose to Thor. What we don't know is whether he thought it was a factor in Superman's fights with Captain Marvel or Captain Thunder, and whether or not the use of magic lightning would've made it a more significant factor.

Superman already faced Shazam lightning bolt in Superman 102. Didn't make much of a difference.

So yes we know that it wouldn't make any difference.

Scan?


You're saying that you haven't read Superman 102?

Quote


You seem to be confusing the word "possibility" with the word "certainty". I don't need to prove that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME, since I only said it was a possibility that he was. And of course it's a possibility he was influenced by it, since it was a high profile story put out by the company he was working for at the time, and at least one other writer, Judd Winick, was clearly influenced by it. Probably Morrison and Johns too.

So you just need to throw random claims and don't have to prove them because it's a possibility and I have to accept it totally negates my point?

I'm allowed to say it's possible that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME without having to prove it, yes. And no, you don't have to accept the theory that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME, although you should accept that it's possible, unless you think it's impossible.


And there it is. If I say it's impossible you'll ask me to prove it and shift the burden of proving Jurgens has Superman vulnerable to magic to my end.

I know how you weasel your way out of these. Now prove your claims or shut up.
Quote


Nope. He presumably had the ability to drain Adam's power from the start of that scene, but we don't know why he had that ability.

Yes, we do. He had Wizard power.

Are you sure? How did he get it?


Off panel. Not shown.
Quote


No, I'm asking you to prove your own statement that "Billy saying Shazam has never flowed lightning back to Wizard before or after".

Because it has never been shown?

The fact that something hasn't been shown doesn't mean it's never happened. We've never seen Peter Parker (or any anyone else) banging Mary Jane, but she still got pregnant. Do you figure it was an immaculate conception?


Because both are vastly different scenarios. This one is a scene where Cap said that he had consumed Wizard's power and then it flowed back into him which is a common trope.

Yours is just your standard red herring.
Quote


Do you really want me to show Cap turning to Billy in front of Wizard now?

Sure, go ahead.


I mean seriously?
Quote


Since Adam was able to shatter the rock with his bare hands, it can't have been all that durable. And Billy didn't seem especially hurt by being struck with the rock. He seemed more hurt by the punches to the face he took from Adam later in the fight.

It's a plot device troll.

It's durability has nothing to do with its power.

And it's durability had nothing to do with it's usefulness as a blunt instrument?


It was stated to be able to kill him. Not as a blunt instrument though.
Quote


Sure, but the idea that gluttony demon allowed Billy to absorb Adam's power is simpler and more sensible than the idea that all the Wizard's power was automatically sent to Billy, which doesn't make much sense for several reasons.

1) We saw the moment the Wizard was turned to stone, and no lightning was shown leaving him.

2) The Seven Deadly Enemies of Man weren't instantly freed when the Wizard was turned to stone, which they should've been if all the Wizard's power had been sent to Billy.

3) There's no obvious reason why all the Wizard's power would automatically leave him as a result of him being turned to stone.

4) Even if the Wizard's power did leave him as a result of him being turned to stone, there's no obvious reason why it'd all go to Billy, rather than being shared between him, Mary and Freddy.

So many mental gymnastics.

I already explained to you how it was shown troll. No need to repeat it.

In other words, you're not going to make any attempt to counter my argument on this point.


You mean I have to disprove your random speculations with no proof whatsoever?

No need to.
Quote


We've definitely seen him use the power of Shazam at the same time as the Marvels, but it's unclear whether he always retains a fixed amount of power when the Marvels are powered up, or whether he taps into what he needs when he needs it.

So Shazam gives his powers to marvels? Are you sure?

Am I sure about something I said was unclear? No. That's why I said it was unclear.


Are you clear about anything?
Quote


There's no dispute that it was the Wizard's own power. The question is whether Billy consumed power directly from the Wizard himself, and if he did, when.

Before draining Adam or punching Superman.

Just because you say so? Or is there some reasoning behind that claim?


Because the comic shows Cap draining Adam which even Spectre couldn't do under Johns and only Wizard could.
Quote


Or maybe he just thought it'd be fun to take Batman down that way. But keep insisting that a top-tier character getting knocked out by being thrown into a sand dune is the most sensible way to interpret that scene.

That's hardly the most absurd scene in a Loeb book.

It is a needlessly improbable interpretation though. The scene makes more sense if we go with the intepretation that Billy was playing possum.
Coming from you? Hahaha, that's just the most absurd thing I've heard all day.

Your entire arguments are based on needlessly improbable claims Jimmy Jr.

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2018, 11:39:20 PM »
The dictionary definition doesn't preclude the use of lightning-charged punches though. So yes, my thread title is consistent with the dictionary definition of the word.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.

It isn't slugfest. No matter how much you try to sell it as. You knew Cap doesn't stands a chance to win a standard slugfest.

It isn't a slugfest per the ICT definition, but it is a slugfest per the dictionary definition.

I can keep pointing out that you're refusing to explain your implicit assertion that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back. But feel free to keep blatantly ducking the point. I don't mind, as long as I'm exposing the fact that you're doing it.

You can do whatever you want. I gave you enough chances.

Your concession is already accepted. You lost, that's it.

Did you or did you not suggest that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proved he wasn't holding back?

If a character is struck while they were distracted by an outside factor, then they were surprised. For the seventh time now: Was Billy expecting the light to go out?

Why would that distract Cap? He already had Superman in his hold? As soon as Superman would break free, the element of surprise would be gone.

Not if Superman moved fast enough. He has super-speed, remember?

For the eighth time: Was Billy expecting the light to go out?

I accept that Billy's injuries were enough to keep him from active duty for a while, but that doesn't require him to have had near-fatal injuries, and his condition shortly after the fight isn't consistent with him having near-fatal injuries. It's not just the art either. The writer is the one who scripted Billy flying shortly after his fight with Eclipso-Supes, standing on his own two legs, and speaking steadily and coherently. That was clearly intentional by the writer, and not something comparable to a colouring error.

So you don't accept what the comic says?

People can go on before realizing the extent of their injuries. Or is Billy just a pussy that a few bruises kept him out of the fight for entire crossover?

He was apparently injured enough to be retired from active duty for a while, but it doesn't follow that he necessarily had near-fatal injuries.

From Fire's POV, yes it was.

Which is writer POV.

Not necessarily. And your overall argument isn't consistent with that assertion, since you've disputed various statements yourself, like Eclipso saying Lar Gand was more powerful than Superman.




I expect Eclipso was fighting equally hard in Lar Gand's body as he was in Superman's body.

So Superman must be stronger than Captain Marvel?

Must have been? No. Could have been? Yes.

Why can't you ever give a straight answer but expect others to give you a straight answer?

When I ask you questions, I don't generally limit you to absolute yes or no answers. I'm usually willing to accept "I don't know" as an answer, provided your argument doesn't hinge on you knowing something one way or the other.

In this case, I don't know whether Superman was stronger than Captain Marvel, and nothing I've argued requires me to know that.

You can't see the difference between a character achieving something on their own, and an outside factor doing it for them?

The result is the same.

My point is about the process, not the result. So do you see the difference between someone achieving something on their own, and an outside factor doing it for them?

I didn't say Eclipso-Supes broke free, or teleported free or whatever. I just said we don't know where he was in the four panels where he wasn't visible.

Why would he be somewhere else? Or do you think Superman straight up overpowered Cap from that position?

Perhaps he did, or perhaps he didn't. We simply don't know.

Bloodwynd didn't say it was a wonder Billy wasn't killed.

He said Cap was injured enough to sit on the bench like the sissy he was. Courage of Achilles? More like cowardice of Shuruku.

Bloodwynd said Billy's injuries prevented him from joining the search, which isn't the same as saying it was a wonder that Billy was still alive.

Sure it has to do with power. I'm not saying Superman's powers didn't help him win; of course they did. I just happen to think Superman has more going for him than his powers. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I should assume Superman's powers are the only reason he wins any fights, and that he has no skill, intestinal fortitude or willpower to go along with those powers. Is that what you believe?

And you're saying Cap does not?

Yes, Superman has all those in spades. He is also prone to just overpower idiots like Captain Marvel and Lar Gand when it really matters.

I think Superman has more skill, intestinal fortitude and willpower than Billy. But you may disagree, since you don't seem to factor anything but raw power into Superman's wins.

Not as pathetic as the arguments you made in that thread. Are you going to keep running away from that thread, or are you going to man up and either justify the positions you took there, or admit you were wrong?
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg367810#msg367810

No, far more pathetic.

How many times do you check if someone has responded to you?

You have my pity.

Are you actually going to respond to the thread, Abhi? I'm still waiting. :)
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg367810#msg367810

What 's your point, Abhi? That Billy wasn't holding back in the first place?

You tell me. You're the one who thinks Billy lost because he held back.

I've been pretty clear about the fact that I think Billy was holding back for most, if not all, of his fight with the Eclipsed Superman. Your position is less clear though. Do you think Billy was holding back at any point in the fight?

Superheroes are almost always holding back. That's the default presumption for anyone who understands superhero psychology.

But only as long as you are arguing for them.

No, most superheroes almost always hold back. When it comes to Superman, you appear to accept this. But when it comes to other heroes like Captain Marvel, your default assumption seems to be that they're not holding back until proven otherwise, which shows a profound ignorance of basic superhero psychology.

I doubt that was his specific plan, but he may have felt that Lar could take a limited number of his best shots (or something close to his best) without necessarily dying.

So Superman was going all out? Yes or no.

Maybe.

I'm denying that I'm claiming either of those things definitively, yes.

So Superman was either holding back or not holding back and Silver Surfer was either holding back or not holding back basis on what you think on a particular day or topic?

Wow, no wonder I used to call you what now I don't.

Don't expect a straight answer when you can't do it yourself.

"Maybe" or "I don't know" are straight answers.

Superman was on the verge of asphyxiating, but he didn't obviously seem to be weakened by it.

Why? Characters get weaker in such conditions.

Not necessarily. We're talking about imaginary, superpowered beings here, not regular, real world humans.

If either one was stronger, it was probably Superman, but they may've been equal in strength.

Never a definite answer is there?

So Captain Marvel was as strong as Superman despite Superman being stated as the most powerful hero on earth twice in the crossover?

Superman may've been stronger than Captain Marvel, but he doesn't need to be stronger to be more powerful.

Bruising Thor's face, you mean. But that doesn't automatically make the Hulk stronger. He could've just been more durable.

Hulk's durablity was tied to his strength. He wasn't shown as Juggernaut type brick.

And no, it was definitely rearranging Thor's face.

Strength and durability aren't always in proportion between different characters. The Hulk's durability edge over Thor has been much clearer and more consistent over the years than his strength edge.

You mean I can't argue that the Superman held back less against Eclipso than the Surfer did against Thor? Sure I can. Those were different fights with different circumstances. What goes for one doesn't necessarily go for the other.

So it's degrees of holding back now, eh? Where did you get that marvelous idea? From Jelly?

Of course a character can hold back to different degrees. We ordinary humans do it all the time in the real world, and the range of force we're capable of using is much smaller than the range of force available to a character with top-tier strength.

What, you thought holding back was a binary setting, like a light switch? Everything or nothing?

I'd agree that Superman outperformed Captain Marvel in that story. I said this already in this thread, and I've said it for years.
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=3456.msg66535#msg66535

So Superman>Captain Marvel? How hard is it to accept that?

Superman was more formidable in that story, and is more formidable on average.

I didn't say Superman hit Eclipso-Lar harder than Eclipso-Supes hit Billy. I just said he was in more of a rush to end the fight as quickly as possible.

So Eclipsed Superman was hitting Cap as hard as Lar Gand? Then it would show Captain Marvel>Lar Gand because Cap fought Superman far longer than Lar Gand did against Superman.

I don't know who, if anyone, was hitting harder between Superman and the Eclipsed Superman in the scenes we're discussing. What I do know is that Superman was in an almighty hurry to win his fight as quickly as possible. Perhaps he landed a greater number of blows within that shorter timespan.

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2018, 11:57:47 PM »
As incomprehensible as it may seem to you, I consider Batman to be a more credible source of information than Fire. Perhaps you disagree though. Perhaps you think she's just as intelligent, knowledgeable, and perceptive as he is, or even his superior in those areas. Perhaps Fire is actually the World's Greatest Detective, and Batman is a mere pretender to her throne.

The guy couldn't even figure out Billy Batson was Captain Marvel while working alongside him for years under Loeb.

Hardly Sherlock Holmes level detective.

Haha, so now you're reduced to arguing that Batman is a poor detective. Good grief. ::)

Because Superman gave an explanation for why he flew slowly that had nothing to do with him being weakened. Did you miss that?

And even Toyman called bullshit on that.

Called bullshit, how?

I've gone over this in previous posts. I think Superman wanted to know whether PG felt any K-radiation in the air to help confirm whether there was any or not. The same way that if a person thought they heard something, they might ask someone nearby whether they heard anything to confirm they weren't imagining it.

Why would Superman ask Power Girl about kryptonite? Is he unaware about what's kryptonite or how it affects him?

I just told you why. Superman wanted to find out if PG was feeling any K-radiation to confirm to himself whether he was or not. Do you have an alternative explanation for why he asked her that question?

Superman has been surprise-attacked by Shazam bolts too.



A random lightning bolt from Shazam is equal to Shazam's lightning bolt which transformed Cap? Proof?

According to what Billy said in a scan you already posted, the Wizard is far more powerful than he is.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/l78Q9MzrxT5OBR0LRaZUWCTVE31Gnx98Y0SDMe_aeLSkKx7NVt0aghg6L7i-5sY65BjmT5k1AstY=s1600

I don't even know what you're trying to say here, Abhi, but let's face it, that was a shitty showing for an attack you've suggested is more powerful than any of Billy's punches. Amped punches, at that.

Not as shitty as Captain Marvel getting knocked out by getting thrown into sand.

You can't compare it to the amped punches because Loeb never showed those.

Hold on, are you suggesting we can only compare a Loeb showing with another Loeb showing? And if so, why?

I'm not saying Adam's Shazam bolt was amped, but you must presumably think it was, if you believe Adam's Shazam bolts contain all of his power, and that he had Isis' power added to his power at the time.

So? One lightning bolt incapacitated J'onn while it took several lightning amped punches to just knock him down later.

Adam said Isis' power was greater than his own. So if his Shazam bolts in WW3 contained his total power plus Isis' total power, that'd make them over twice as powerful as usual. Do we have any indication that his punches were over twice as powerful as usual?



So list them, and we'll examine each of them individually.

Why?

So we can assess how impressive those showings are.

Have you any scene suggesting lightning amped punches are more powerful than Shazam bolt?

We don't need to restrict ourselves to showings which specifically involved lightning-amped punches. We can use Captain Marvel's standard punches as a benchmark, and the punches of other characters who're roughly on his level, like Black Adam.

Let's use an actual scene to illustrate the point. Here's Billy flying through the air in his powered up Captain Marvel form. Mary and Freddy hadn't been granted the power of Shazam yet, so Billy was presumably in possession of his total power there. And yet in the second panel, he summons a Shazam bolt from the sky, and you claimed Shazam bolts are "Cap's total power concentrated in a lightning bolt". So how does Cap's total power get to be in two different places at the same time?



The lightning which transforms him back takes his power away.

So? Are you suggesting the Shazam bolts that turn him into Billy Batson aren't as powerful as the ones that turn him into Captain Marvel?

Or are you suggesting that Billy Batson tanks a lightning bolt every time he says Shazam?

To my knowledge, he's never expressed pain from being hit by a Shazam bolt, so I assume he's likely immune to any destructive effects those bolts have.

It doesn't imply that Adam would beat SBP, but it implies that SBP would've been reeling from Adam's lightning-charged punches if he'd been vulnerable to magic. That was likely the point of establishing that SBP didn't have that weakness; to justify why he was so hard to take down, despite all the magic users on DC Earth.

Cryjng in pain is now reeling from Adam's lightning charged punches?

Boy, you got to read some comics.

SBP wasn't just crying out in apparent pain, he was physically reacting to Adam's punches as though he were being staggered by them.

Superman only landed one punch.

And he sent Shazam reeling as you said.

He knocked Billy down. What of it?

No, meaning I'm undecided. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

So in other words weaker. Because anyone losing to Superman is automatically weak.

You just can't stop trying to put words in my mouth, can you? Have you ever been diagnosed with OCSD? (Obsessive-Compulsive Strawmanning Disorder?)

Scan?

You're saying that you haven't read Superman 102?

I'm saying I'd like you to post the page or pages you're talking about, so we can all see exactly what you mean. Here's a link to the issue itself, so you just need to link the specific page/s.
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Issue-102?id=16494

I'm allowed to say it's possible that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME without having to prove it, yes. And no, you don't have to accept the theory that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME, although you should accept that it's possible, unless you think it's impossible.

And there it is. If I say it's impossible you'll ask me to prove it and shift the burden of proving Jurgens has Superman vulnerable to magic to my end.

I've already explained why it's reasonable to think that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME. So yeah, if you were to claim that it's impossible that he was influenced by that story, I'd certainly ask you to explain that.

I know how you weasel your way out of these. Now prove your claims or shut up.

I can't prove for a fact that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME, but so what? Are we supposed to assume he definitely wasn't if we don't know for a fact that he was? That's a basic logical fallacy known as an argument from ignorance. I must've posted this link for you half a dozen times already. Did you ever get around to reading it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Are you sure? How did he get it?

Off panel. Not shown.

So you have no idea? No theory?

The fact that something hasn't been shown doesn't mean it's never happened. We've never seen Peter Parker (or any anyone else) banging Mary Jane, but she still got pregnant. Do you figure it was an immaculate conception?

Because both are vastly different scenarios. This one is a scene where Cap said that he had consumed Wizard's power and then it flowed back into him which is a common trope.

It's a common trope for Billy to consume the Wizard's power, and then for that power to flow back into the Wizard?

Yours is just your standard red herring.

It proves a general principle, which is that things can happen without them being shown on-panel.

Sure, go ahead.

I mean seriously?

Yeah, seriously, post it, please. The tension of waiting for this scan is killing me.

And it's durability had nothing to do with it's usefulness as a blunt instrument?

It was stated to be able to kill him. Not as a blunt instrument though.

Adam only used it as a blunt instrument.

In other words, you're not going to make any attempt to counter my argument on this point.

You mean I have to disprove your random speculations with no proof whatsoever?

No need to.

What "random speculations" are you referring to?

Am I sure about something I said was unclear? No. That's why I said it was unclear.

Are you clear about anything?

Things that're indisputable, sure.

Just because you say so? Or is there some reasoning behind that claim?

Because the comic shows Cap draining Adam which even Spectre couldn't do under Johns and only Wizard could.

Where was it established that the Spectre couldn't drain Black Adam's power?

It is a needlessly improbable interpretation though. The scene makes more sense if we go with the intepretation that Billy was playing possum.

Coming from you? Hahaha, that's just the most absurd thing I've heard all day.

Your entire arguments are based on needlessly improbable claims Jimmy Jr.

What's needlessly improbable about the idea that Billy was playing possum?

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2018, 03:45:16 AM »
The dictionary definition doesn't preclude the use of lightning-charged punches though. So yes, my thread title is consistent with the dictionary definition of the word.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.

It isn't slugfest. No matter how much you try to sell it as. You knew Cap doesn't stands a chance to win a standard slugfest.

It isn't a slugfest per the ICT definition, but it is a slugfest per the dictionary definition.


Prove that where it's including magic lightning amped punches.
Quote


I can keep pointing out that you're refusing to explain your implicit assertion that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back. But feel free to keep blatantly ducking the point. I don't mind, as long as I'm exposing the fact that you're doing it.

You can do whatever you want. I gave you enough chances.

Your concession is already accepted. You lost, that's it.

Did you or did you not suggest that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proved he wasn't holding back?


No more discussion on it. You lost your chance, you conceded.
Quote


If a character is struck while they were distracted by an outside factor, then they were surprised. For the seventh time now: Was Billy expecting the light to go out?

Why would that distract Cap? He already had Superman in his hold? As soon as Superman would break free, the element of surprise would be gone.

Not if Superman moved fast enough. He has super-speed, remember?


So does Captain Marvel. Are you suggesting Superman moves so fast Cap can't even see or feel him moving?
Quote


For the eighth time: Was Billy expecting the light to go out?


Did the light punch him? Why are you so fixated on the light?
Quote


I accept that Billy's injuries were enough to keep him from active duty for a while, but that doesn't require him to have had near-fatal injuries, and his condition shortly after the fight isn't consistent with him having near-fatal injuries. It's not just the art either. The writer is the one who scripted Billy flying shortly after his fight with Eclipso-Supes, standing on his own two legs, and speaking steadily and coherently. That was clearly intentional by the writer, and not something comparable to a colouring error.

So you don't accept what the comic says?

People can go on before realizing the extent of their injuries. Or is Billy just a pussy that a few bruises kept him out of the fight for entire crossover?

He was apparently injured enough to be retired from active duty for a while, but it doesn't follow that he necessarily had near-fatal injuries.


Why is that? Proof of that being?
Quote


From Fire's POV, yes it was.

Which is writer POV.

Not necessarily. And your overall argument isn't consistent with that assertion, since you've disputed various statements yourself, like Eclipso saying Lar Gand was more powerful than Superman.


Why not. What's contradicting Fire?

I didn't say Lar wasn't more powerful than Superman.
Quote





And?
Quote


I expect Eclipso was fighting equally hard in Lar Gand's body as he was in Superman's body.

So Superman must be stronger than Captain Marvel?

Must have been? No. Could have been? Yes.[/quote
]

So Superman wasn't hitting Cap as hard as he did to Lar Gand?

This isn't a multiple choice option question. Only yes or no can be an answer here.
Quote


Why can't you ever give a straight answer but expect others to give you a straight answer?

When I ask you questions, I don't generally limit you to absolute yes or no answers. I'm usually willing to accept "I don't know" as an answer, provided your argument doesn't hinge on you knowing something one way or the other.

In this case, I don't know whether Superman was stronger than Captain Marvel, and nothing I've argued requires me to know that.


Yes, you do ask for straight answers. And keep score of asking questions.

You're a hypocrite.
Quote


You can't see the difference between a character achieving something on their own, and an outside factor doing it for them?

The result is the same.

My point is about the process, not the result. So do you see the difference between someone achieving something on their own, and an outside factor doing it for them?


My point is the result. I don't require to know how it's done after all as you said.
Quote


I didn't say Eclipso-Supes broke free, or teleported free or whatever. I just said we don't know where he was in the four panels where he wasn't visible.

Why would he be somewhere else? Or do you think Superman straight up overpowered Cap from that position?

Perhaps he did, or perhaps he didn't. We simply don't know.


We do know he was in a chokehold and unable to break free previously.

So either he broke free and that would ruin the element of surprise or he didn't.

There is no other option.
Quote


Bloodwynd didn't say it was a wonder Billy wasn't killed.

He said Cap was injured enough to sit on the bench like the sissy he was. Courage of Achilles? More like cowardice of Shuruku.

Bloodwynd said Billy's injuries prevented him from joining the search, which isn't the same as saying it was a wonder that Billy was still alive.


So a bunch of bruises were enough to bench him?
Quote


Sure it has to do with power. I'm not saying Superman's powers didn't help him win; of course they did. I just happen to think Superman has more going for him than his powers. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I should assume Superman's powers are the only reason he wins any fights, and that he has no skill, intestinal fortitude or willpower to go along with those powers. Is that what you believe?

And you're saying Cap does not?

Yes, Superman has all those in spades. He is also prone to just overpower idiots like Captain Marvel and Lar Gand when it really matters.

I think Superman has more skill, intestinal fortitude and willpower than Billy. But you may disagree, since you don't seem to factor anything but raw power into Superman's wins.


But Eclipso isn't Superman.
Quote


Not as pathetic as the arguments you made in that thread. Are you going to keep running away from that thread, or are you going to man up and either justify the positions you took there, or admit you were wrong?
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg367810#msg367810

No, far more pathetic.

How many times do you check if someone has responded to you?

You have my pity.

Are you actually going to respond to the thread, Abhi? I'm still waiting. :)
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg367810#msg367810


Why should I? You obviously need my opinion to validate yours.

It's just more fun this way.
Quote


What 's your point, Abhi? That Billy wasn't holding back in the first place?

You tell me. You're the one who thinks Billy lost because he held back.

I've been pretty clear about the fact that I think Billy was holding back for most, if not all, of his fight with the Eclipsed Superman. Your position is less clear though. Do you think Billy was holding back at any point in the fight?


I don't require to know that.

Are you suggesting he was holding back in the entire fight?
Quote


Superheroes are almost always holding back. That's the default presumption for anyone who understands superhero psychology.

But only as long as you are arguing for them.

No, most superheroes almost always hold back. When it comes to Superman, you appear to accept this. But when it comes to other heroes like Captain Marvel, your default assumption seems to be that they're not holding back until proven otherwise, which shows a profound ignorance of basic superhero psychology.


Only if you are arguing for a hero, they are always holding back. Despite their actions or dialog.

Quote


I doubt that was his specific plan, but he may have felt that Lar could take a limited number of his best shots (or something close to his best) without necessarily dying.

So Superman was going all out? Yes or no.

Maybe.


But you said heroes always hold back. Now they don't?
Quote


I'm denying that I'm claiming either of those things definitively, yes.

So Superman was either holding back or not holding back and Silver Surfer was either holding back or not holding back basis on what you think on a particular day or topic?

Wow, no wonder I used to call you what now I don't.

Don't expect a straight answer when you can't do it yourself.

"Maybe" or "I don't know" are straight answers.


For a lawyer maybe.
Quote


Superman was on the verge of asphyxiating, but he didn't obviously seem to be weakened by it.

Why? Characters get weaker in such conditions.

Not necessarily. We're talking about imaginary, superpowered beings here, not regular, real world humans.


Who don't get asphyxiated unless it's specifically stated.

But Superman was obviously at full strength while nearly passed out.
Quote


If either one was stronger, it was probably Superman, but they may've been equal in strength.

Never a definite answer is there?

So Captain Marvel was as strong as Superman despite Superman being stated as the most powerful hero on earth twice in the crossover?

Superman may've been stronger than Captain Marvel, but he doesn't need to be stronger to be more powerful.


So what other powers would make him more powerful? That's not what you said when it came to Superman/Martian Manhunter.
Quote


Bruising Thor's face, you mean. But that doesn't automatically make the Hulk stronger. He could've just been more durable.

Hulk's durablity was tied to his strength. He wasn't shown as Juggernaut type brick.

And no, it was definitely rearranging Thor's face.

Strength and durability aren't always in proportion between different characters. The Hulk's durability edge over Thor has been much clearer and more consistent over the years than his strength edge.


In that instance it was.

Hulk gets more durable the stronger he is.
Quote


You mean I can't argue that the Superman held back less against Eclipso than the Surfer did against Thor? Sure I can. Those were different fights with different circumstances. What goes for one doesn't necessarily go for the other.

So it's degrees of holding back now, eh? Where did you get that marvelous idea? From Jelly?

Of course a character can hold back to different degrees. We ordinary humans do it all the time in the real world, and the range of force we're capable of using is much smaller than the range of force available to a character with top-tier strength.

What, you thought holding back was a binary setting, like a light switch? Everything or nothing?


But we don't hold by degrees and still hold back once we mean going full on assault after someone forces us to get rough.

In a fight like Captain Marvel and Eclipso I don't think any human would hold back.
Quote

I'd agree that Superman outperformed Captain Marvel in that story. I said this already in this thread, and I've said it for years.
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=3456.msg66535#msg66535

So Superman>Captain Marvel? How hard is it to accept that?

Superman was more formidable in that story, and is more formidable on average.


But not stronger?
Quote


I didn't say Superman hit Eclipso-Lar harder than Eclipso-Supes hit Billy. I just said he was in more of a rush to end the fight as quickly as possible.

So Eclipsed Superman was hitting Cap as hard as Lar Gand? Then it would show Captain Marvel>Lar Gand because Cap fought Superman far longer than Lar Gand did against Superman.

I don't know who, if anyone, was hitting harder between Superman and the Eclipsed Superman in the scenes we're discussing. What I do know is that Superman was in an almighty hurry to win his fight as quickly as possible. Perhaps he landed a greater number of blows within that shorter timespan.
So it was off panel punching that took Lar Gand out? Just like off panel surprise from Superman against Captain Marvel.

Your "theories" never fail to amuse.

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2018, 04:10:13 AM »
As incomprehensible as it may seem to you, I consider Batman to be a more credible source of information than Fire. Perhaps you disagree though. Perhaps you think she's just as intelligent, knowledgeable, and perceptive as he is, or even his superior in those areas. Perhaps Fire is actually the World's Greatest Detective, and Batman is a mere pretender to her throne.

The guy couldn't even figure out Billy Batson was Captain Marvel while working alongside him for years under Loeb.

Hardly Sherlock Holmes level detective.

Haha, so now you're reduced to arguing that Batman is a poor detective. Good grief. ::)


Batman did detective work when Superman was weakened by kryptonite? He simply observed when Superman was glaringaly weakened.

But yes, Batman under Loeb wasn't particularly good at Detective work.
Quote


Because Superman gave an explanation for why he flew slowly that had nothing to do with him being weakened. Did you miss that?

And even Toyman called bullshit on that.

Called bullshit, how?


He said that Superman was just flying slowly and not avoiding radar.
Quote


I've gone over this in previous posts. I think Superman wanted to know whether PG felt any K-radiation in the air to help confirm whether there was any or not. The same way that if a person thought they heard something, they might ask someone nearby whether they heard anything to confirm they weren't imagining it.

Why would Superman ask Power Girl about kryptonite? Is he unaware about what's kryptonite or how it affects him?

I just told you why. Superman wanted to find out if PG was feeling any K-radiation to confirm to himself whether he was or not. Do you have an alternative explanation for why he asked her that question?


He wanted to know if she was affected by kryptonite or not.
Quote


Superman has been surprise-attacked by Shazam bolts too.



A random lightning bolt from Shazam is equal to Shazam's lightning bolt which transformed Cap? Proof?

According to what Billy said in a scan you already posted, the Wizard is far more powerful than he is.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/l78Q9MzrxT5OBR0LRaZUWCTVE31Gnx98Y0SDMe_aeLSkKx7NVt0aghg6L7i-5sY65BjmT5k1AstY=s1600


That doesn't prove his random lightning bolts are more powerful than Shazam bolts.
Quote


I don't even know what you're trying to say here, Abhi, but let's face it, that was a shitty showing for an attack you've suggested is more powerful than any of Billy's punches. Amped punches, at that.

Not as shitty as Captain Marvel getting knocked out by getting thrown into sand.

You can't compare it to the amped punches because Loeb never showed those.

Hold on, are you suggesting we can only compare a Loeb showing with another Loeb showing? And if so, why?


Different writers clause. You coined it after all.
Quote


I'm not saying Adam's Shazam bolt was amped, but you must presumably think it was, if you believe Adam's Shazam bolts contain all of his power, and that he had Isis' power added to his power at the time.

So? One lightning bolt incapacitated J'onn while it took several lightning amped punches to just knock him down later.

Adam said Isis' power was greater than his own. So if his Shazam bolts in WW3 contained his total power plus Isis' total power, that'd make them over twice as powerful as usual. Do we have any indication that his punches were over twice as powerful as usual?



So only his lightning bolt was amped?
Quote



So list them, and we'll examine each of them individually.

Why?

So we can assess how impressive those showings are.


For what reason?
Quote


Have you any scene suggesting lightning amped punches are more powerful than Shazam bolt?

We don't need to restrict ourselves to showings which specifically involved lightning-amped punches. We can use Captain Marvel's standard punches as a benchmark, and the punches of other characters who're roughly on his level, like Black Adam.


No, we wouldn't do that. You said the lightning amped punches are more powerful than the Shazam bolt.

Now prove that.
Quote


Let's use an actual scene to illustrate the point. Here's Billy flying through the air in his powered up Captain Marvel form. Mary and Freddy hadn't been granted the power of Shazam yet, so Billy was presumably in possession of his total power there. And yet in the second panel, he summons a Shazam bolt from the sky, and you claimed Shazam bolts are "Cap's total power concentrated in a lightning bolt". So how does Cap's total power get to be in two different places at the same time?



The lightning which transforms him back takes his power away.

So? Are you suggesting the Shazam bolts that turn him into Billy Batson aren't as powerful as the ones that turn him into Captain Marvel?


No, there effect on Cap is just to take his power away. If it hits someone else, it's a magical lightning bolt striking with his full power.
Quote


Or are you suggesting that Billy Batson tanks a lightning bolt every time he says Shazam?

To my knowledge, he's never expressed pain from being hit by a Shazam bolt, so I assume he's likely immune to any destructive effects those bolts have.


Can you show all the instances this happened?
Quote


It doesn't imply that Adam would beat SBP, but it implies that SBP would've been reeling from Adam's lightning-charged punches if he'd been vulnerable to magic. That was likely the point of establishing that SBP didn't have that weakness; to justify why he was so hard to take down, despite all the magic users on DC Earth.

Cryjng in pain is now reeling from Adam's lightning charged punches?

Boy, you got to read some comics.

SBP wasn't just crying out in apparent pain, he was physically reacting to Adam's punches as though he were being staggered by them.


Where did you get that from?
Quote


Superman only landed one punch.

And he sent Shazam reeling as you said.

He knocked Billy down. What of it?


Shazam couldn't do that with a lightning amped punch when Superman braced himself.
Quote


No, meaning I'm undecided. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

So in other words weaker. Because anyone losing to Superman is automatically weak.

You just can't stop trying to put words in my mouth, can you? Have you ever been diagnosed with OCSD? (Obsessive-Compulsive Strawmanning Disorder?)


I'm just saying what you always say.

So was Shazam weaker, stronger or equal to Captain Marvel?
Quote


Scan?

You're saying that you haven't read Superman 102?

I'm saying I'd like you to post the page or pages you're talking about, so we can all see exactly what you mean. Here's a link to the issue itself, so you just need to link the specific page/s.
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Issue-102?id=16494


So you didn't read the scene where a Shazam lightning bolt becomes sentient?
Quote


I'm allowed to say it's possible that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME without having to prove it, yes. And no, you don't have to accept the theory that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME, although you should accept that it's possible, unless you think it's impossible.

And there it is. If I say it's impossible you'll ask me to prove it and shift the burden of proving Jurgens has Superman vulnerable to magic to my end.

I've already explained why it's reasonable to think that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME. So yeah, if you were to claim that it's impossible that he was influenced by that story, I'd certainly ask you to explain that.


Haha, now I've to prove Jurgens wasn't influenced by Kingdom Come when you never proved it in the first place.

Never change Shuruku.
Quote


I know how you weasel your way out of these. Now prove your claims or shut up.

I can't prove for a fact that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME, but so what? Are we supposed to assume he definitely wasn't if we don't know for a fact that he was? That's a basic logical fallacy known as an argument from ignorance. I must've posted this link for you half a dozen times already. Did you ever get around to reading it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance


Because you just make shit up and ask me to disprove it. That's just a shit argument from start and not ignorance.

Why would Jurgens be influenced by Kingdom Come? He was writing Superman for years before it was published.
Quote


Are you sure? How did he get it?

Off panel. Not shown.

So you have no idea? No theory?


I don't require to know that.
Quote


The fact that something hasn't been shown doesn't mean it's never happened. We've never seen Peter Parker (or any anyone else) banging Mary Jane, but she still got pregnant. Do you figure it was an immaculate conception?

Because both are vastly different scenarios. This one is a scene where Cap said that he had consumed Wizard's power and then it flowed back into him which is a common trope.

It's a common trope for Billy to consume the Wizard's power, and then for that power to flow back into the Wizard?


Stop being obtuse. It's a common trope for anyone to steal power from a character and upon being defeated the power returns to original character.
Quote


Yours is just your standard red herring.

It proves a general principle, which is that things can happen without them being shown on-panel.


Nope, it's a random red herring.
Quote


Sure, go ahead.

I mean seriously?

Yeah, seriously, post it, please. The tension of waiting for this scan is killing me.


No, seriously?
Quote


And it's durability had nothing to do with it's usefulness as a blunt instrument?

It was stated to be able to kill him. Not as a blunt instrument though.

Adam only used it as a blunt instrument.


So? Obviously it didn't kill him but only weakened him.
Quote


In other words, you're not going to make any attempt to counter my argument on this point.

You mean I have to disprove your random speculations with no proof whatsoever?

No need to.

What "random speculations" are you referring to?


Gluttony somehow able to drain Adam.
Quote


Am I sure about something I said was unclear? No. That's why I said it was unclear.

Are you clear about anything?

Things that're indisputable, sure.


Like?
Quote


Just because you say so? Or is there some reasoning behind that claim?

Because the comic shows Cap draining Adam which even Spectre couldn't do under Johns and only Wizard could.

Where was it established that the Spectre couldn't drain Black Adam's power?


In Day of Venegence. He couldn't drain either Cap or Adam.
Quote


It is a needlessly improbable interpretation though. The scene makes more sense if we go with the intepretation that Billy was playing possum.

Coming from you? Hahaha, that's just the most absurd thing I've heard all day.

Your entire arguments are based on needlessly improbable claims Jimmy Jr.

What's needlessly improbable about the idea that Billy was playing possum?
Everything? Why would Cap need to play possum for Batman?

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2018, 12:49:43 AM »
It isn't a slugfest per the ICT definition, but it is a slugfest per the dictionary definition.

Prove that where it's including magic lightning amped punches.

I don't need to. There's no contradiction between the dictionary definition of the word "slugfest" and this thread scenario.

Did you or did you not suggest that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proved he wasn't holding back?

No more discussion on it. You lost your chance, you conceded.

If you don't want to discuss it anymore, stop replying. Until then, I'm going to keep asking you to explain your position. Did you or did you not suggest that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proved he wasn't holding back?

Not if Superman moved fast enough. He has super-speed, remember?

So does Captain Marvel. Are you suggesting Superman moves so fast Cap can't even see or feel him moving?

If Superman is using his super-speed and Billy isn't, yes.

For the eighth time: Was Billy expecting the light to go out?

Did the light punch him? Why are you so fixated on the light?

No, the light didn't punch Billy. And I'm asking about the light because it pertains to whether Billy was surprised or not. So for the ninth time: Was Billy expecting the light to go out?

He was apparently injured enough to be retired from active duty for a while, but it doesn't follow that he necessarily had near-fatal injuries.

Why is that? Proof of that being?

Because it doesn't take near-fatal injuries for someone to need to take time off from (or be considered unfit to) work.

Not necessarily. And your overall argument isn't consistent with that assertion, since you've disputed various statements yourself, like Eclipso saying Lar Gand was more powerful than Superman.

Why not. What's contradicting Fire?

Statements made by characters in comicbooks don't necessarily reflect the writer's POV, because writers often portray characters who have different personalities and outlooks than their own. For example, Peter David has written a character that was homophobic, but David himself isn't homophobic, and wouldn't endorse the views that character expressed. In the individual case of Fire's statement, it could have reflected what the writer believed, but it's on you to prove that if that's what your claiming.

I didn't say Lar wasn't more powerful than Superman.

You implied that when you questioned Eclipso's assessment of Superman's power level (Abhi: "So both Eclipso and Superman didn't know how tough Superman is.").


And?

Eclipso said Lar Gand was more powerful than Superman. Do you accept that as the writer's POV?

Must have been? No. Could have been? Yes.

So Superman wasn't hitting Cap as hard as he did to Lar Gand?

This isn't a multiple choice option question. Only yes or no can be an answer here.

Maybe.

In this case, I don't know whether Superman was stronger than Captain Marvel, and nothing I've argued requires me to know that.

Yes, you do ask for straight answers. And keep score of asking questions.

You're a hypocrite.

When I ask you questions over and over, it's usually because you've failed to give a direct answer at all, including "maybe" or "I don't know".

My point is about the process, not the result. So do you see the difference between someone achieving something on their own, and an outside factor doing it for them?

My point is the result. I don't require to know how it's done after all as you said.

Your point appears to be about the process as well, since you seem to think the Surfer doesn't deserve full credit for his win over Beta Ray Bill, on the basis that he used his board to strike BRB in the back at one point. But the Surfer wasn't assisted by any outside factors there; it was a one-on-one fight, and he defeated BRB using nothing more than his own skill and power, so he does deserve full credit for that win.

Perhaps he did, or perhaps he didn't. We simply don't know.

We do know he was in a chokehold and unable to break free previously.

So either he broke free and that would ruin the element of surprise or he didn't.

There is no other option.

There are a couple of other options. 1) Eclipso got loose before Billy was distracted by the light going out, or 2) While Billy was distracted by the light, Eclipso broke free and spun around with a punch before Billy's focus was fully back on him.

Bloodwynd said Billy's injuries prevented him from joining the search, which isn't the same as saying it was a wonder that Billy was still alive.

So a bunch of bruises were enough to bench him?

I don't know. The injuries could've been more than just bruising though.

I think Superman has more skill, intestinal fortitude and willpower than Billy. But you may disagree, since you don't seem to factor anything but raw power into Superman's wins.

But Eclipso isn't Superman.

No, but I wasn't suggesting Superman's skill or willpower were factors in the Eclipso-Supes/Billy fight. I'm suggesting they were factors in Superman's win over Eclipso-Lar.

Are you actually going to respond to the thread, Abhi? I'm still waiting. :)
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg367810#msg367810

Why should I? You obviously need my opinion to validate yours.

It's just more fun this way.

You should respond to the other thread to prove you weren't full of shit there.

I've been pretty clear about the fact that I think Billy was holding back for most, if not all, of his fight with the Eclipsed Superman. Your position is less clear though. Do you think Billy was holding back at any point in the fight?

I don't require to know that.

You do if you dispute that Billy was holding back. If you agree he may've been holding back though, then saying you don't know is fine. So do you accept that Billy may've been holding back against Eclipso-Supes?

Are you suggesting he was holding back in the entire fight?

Possibly. Certainly most of it IMO.

No, most superheroes almost always hold back. When it comes to Superman, you appear to accept this. But when it comes to other heroes like Captain Marvel, your default assumption seems to be that they're not holding back until proven otherwise, which shows a profound ignorance of basic superhero psychology.

Only if you are arguing for a hero, they are always holding back. Despite their actions or dialog.

Is there a conventional superhero (not an antihero, like the Punisher) I've suggested doesn't hold back most of the time?

Maybe.

But you said heroes always hold back. Now they don't?

Heroes like Superman almost always hold back.

"Maybe" or "I don't know" are straight answers.

For a lawyer maybe.

No, for anyone who's honest, because no one knows the correct answer to every question.

Not necessarily. We're talking about imaginary, superpowered beings here, not regular, real world humans.

Who don't get asphyxiated unless it's specifically stated.

But Superman was obviously at full strength while nearly passed out.

He could've been, if the writer wanted him to be.

Superman may've been stronger than Captain Marvel, but he doesn't need to be stronger to be more powerful.

So what other powers would make him more powerful? That's not what you said when it came to Superman/Martian Manhunter.

J'onn is more versatile than Superman. Post-Crisis Billy was at best equal to Superman in versatility, and arguably less versatile. Billy lacks Superman's superhuman senses, superhuman metabolism (Captain Marvel sweats, Superman doesn't), superhuman lung capacity, super-breath, super-cold breath, senses and vision powers, including heat-vision. He's also below Superman in their shared power of super-speed. Billy now makes up for the lack of heat-vision with his Shazam bolts and lightning-charged punches, but both of those were introduced years after Eclipso: The Darkness Within.

Strength and durability aren't always in proportion between different characters. The Hulk's durability edge over Thor has been much clearer and more consistent over the years than his strength edge.

In that instance it was.

Hulk gets more durable the stronger he is.

If you want to claim that Thor and the Hulk's strength and durability were completely in proportion in THOR #385, it's on you to prove that.

Of course a character can hold back to different degrees. We ordinary humans do it all the time in the real world, and the range of force we're capable of using is much smaller than the range of force available to a character with top-tier strength.

What, you thought holding back was a binary setting, like a light switch? Everything or nothing?

But we don't hold by degrees and still hold back once we mean going full on assault after someone forces us to get rough.

In a fight like Captain Marvel and Eclipso I don't think any human would hold back.

You just used the phrase "going full on assault", but what Billy actually said is that Superman was forcing him to start "getting rough". And "getting rough" is a subjective term, meaning different things to different people.

Superman was more formidable in that story, and is more formidable on average.

But not stronger?

Superman almost certainly is stronger under some writers. Not all of them though.

I don't know who, if anyone, was hitting harder between Superman and the Eclipsed Superman in the scenes we're discussing. What I do know is that Superman was in an almighty hurry to win his fight as quickly as possible. Perhaps he landed a greater number of blows within that shorter timespan.

So it was off panel punching that took Lar Gand out? Just like off panel surprise from Superman against Captain Marvel.

Your "theories" never fail to amuse.

So you don't think Superman could've landed more blows against Eclipso-Lar than Eclipso-Supes did against Billy?

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2018, 01:27:15 AM »
Haha, so now you're reduced to arguing that Batman is a poor detective. Good grief. ::)

Batman did detective work when Superman was weakened by kryptonite? He simply observed when Superman was glaringaly weakened.

When did Batman observe that "Superman was glaringaly [sic] weakened"?

But yes, Batman under Loeb wasn't particularly good at Detective work.

Do you think Fire would be portrayed as being as smart as Batman under Loeb, or any writer for that matter?

Called bullshit, how?

He said that Superman was just flying slowly and not avoiding radar.

I assume you're referring to Katana, not Toyman. Katana said she thought Superman was just flying slowly, but that was before Superman explained that he was flying carefully to stay below Toyman's radar. And Superman would know the truth of that better than she would.

I just told you why. Superman wanted to find out if PG was feeling any K-radiation to confirm to himself whether he was or not. Do you have an alternative explanation for why he asked her that question?

He wanted to know if she was affected by kryptonite or not.

Why? Of what use was that information at that particular time, to Superman or the story?

According to what Billy said in a scan you already posted, the Wizard is far more powerful than he is.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/l78Q9MzrxT5OBR0LRaZUWCTVE31Gnx98Y0SDMe_aeLSkKx7NVt0aghg6L7i-5sY65BjmT5k1AstY=s1600

That doesn't prove his random lightning bolts are more powerful than Shazam bolts.

No, but it suggests he's capable of producing more powerful bolts. Why would the Wizard use weaker bolts in that scene?

Hold on, are you suggesting we can only compare a Loeb showing with another Loeb showing? And if so, why?

Different writers clause. You coined it after all.

I only apply that when attempting to interpret a specific writer's intent. It doesn't apply when comparing average power levels. I don't need to see Superman and Hancock written by the same author to conclude that Superman has more impressive feats. Likewise, I don't need to see Shazam bolts and lightning-charged punches portrayed by the same author to conclude which has more impressive feats.

Adam said Isis' power was greater than his own. So if his Shazam bolts in WW3 contained his total power plus Isis' total power, that'd make them over twice as powerful as usual. Do we have any indication that his punches were over twice as powerful as usual?



So only his lightning bolt was amped?

I don't know; I'm skeptical that Adam's Shazam bolts were amped in the first place. But I asked you a question: Do we have any indication that his punches were over twice as powerful as usual?

So we can assess how impressive those showings are.

For what reason?

Because you suggested Billy's Shazam bolts were more damaging than his lightning-charged punches. And in order to test the accuracy of that claim, we need to compare the showings those attacks have had.

We don't need to restrict ourselves to showings which specifically involved lightning-amped punches. We can use Captain Marvel's standard punches as a benchmark, and the punches of other characters who're roughly on his level, like Black Adam.

No, we wouldn't do that. You said the lightning amped punches are more powerful than the Shazam bolt.

Now prove that.

I don't recall saying that lightning-charged punches are more powerful than Shazam bolts. Could you link the statement you have in mind?

So? Are you suggesting the Shazam bolts that turn him into Billy Batson aren't as powerful as the ones that turn him into Captain Marvel?

No, there effect on Cap is just to take his power away. If it hits someone else, it's a magical lightning bolt striking with his full power.

So where was Billy's total power in the scene below? Was it in his Captain Marvel form, the Shazam bolt he summoned, or both?




To my knowledge, he's never expressed pain from being hit by a Shazam bolt, so I assume he's likely immune to any destructive effects those bolts have.

Can you show all the instances this happened?

Can I show all the instances where Billy was hit by a Shazam bolt without expressing pain? No. I could post a few examples if you like though.

SBP wasn't just crying out in apparent pain, he was physically reacting to Adam's punches as though he were being staggered by them.

Where did you get that from?

From the art and the dialogue.

He knocked Billy down. What of it?

Shazam couldn't do that with a lightning amped punch when Superman braced himself.

He "couldn't" do it with a single attempt. That's hardly definitive.

You just can't stop trying to put words in my mouth, can you? Have you ever been diagnosed with OCSD? (Obsessive-Compulsive Strawmanning Disorder?)

I'm just saying what you always say.

So was Shazam weaker, stronger or equal to Captain Marvel?

I haven't read many Nu52 stories, but my impression is that Nu52 Shazam is weaker than Superman.

I'm saying I'd like you to post the page or pages you're talking about, so we can all see exactly what you mean. Here's a link to the issue itself, so you just need to link the specific page/s.
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Issue-102?id=16494

So you didn't read the scene where a Shazam lightning bolt becomes sentient?

No, I didn't. So are you going to post it, or what?

I've already explained why it's reasonable to think that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME. So yeah, if you were to claim that it's impossible that he was influenced by that story, I'd certainly ask you to explain that.

Haha, now I've to prove Jurgens wasn't influenced by Kingdom Come when you never proved it in the first place.

Never change Shuruku.

You only have to prove Jurgens wasn't influenced by KINGDOM COME if you're claiming he wasn't. So are you claiming he wasn't?

I can't prove for a fact that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME, but so what? Are we supposed to assume he definitely wasn't if we don't know for a fact that he was? That's a basic logical fallacy known as an argument from ignorance. I must've posted this link for you half a dozen times already. Did you ever get around to reading it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Because you just make shit up and ask me to disprove it. That's just a shit argument from start and not ignorance.

I only ask you prove things you claim or imply.

Why would Jurgens be influenced by Kingdom Come? He was writing Superman for years before it was published.

Jurgens couldn't have been influenced by KINGDOM COME before reading it, but if he did read it at some point, it could've influenced his thinking from that point forward.

So you have no idea? No theory?

I don't require to know that.

You kinda do, because you're insisting you know for a fact that Billy directly absorbed the Wizard's power, and you can't credibly insist on that while simultaneously admitting you have no clue what happened. That's like trying to lead people in a given direction while admitting you're blind.

It's a common trope for Billy to consume the Wizard's power, and then for that power to flow back into the Wizard?

Stop being obtuse. It's a common trope for anyone to steal power from a character and upon being defeated the power returns to original character.

There's no dispute that the power Billy had returned to the Wizard though. What we're debating is how and when Billy gained that power in the first place.

It proves a general principle, which is that things can happen without them being shown on-panel.

Nope, it's a random red herring.

Explain why it's a red herring.

Yeah, seriously, post it, please. The tension of waiting for this scan is killing me.

No, seriously?

Yes, seriously.

Adam only used it as a blunt instrument.

So? Obviously it didn't kill him but only weakened him.

It didn't look like it fazed him much. He struck back immediately, and with authority.






What "random speculations" are you referring to?

Gluttony somehow able to drain Adam.

I accept that's speculation, but if you're arguing that the Wizard's power was automatically sent to Billy when he was turned to stone by Johnny Sorrow, that too is speculation. Is that what you think happened?

Things that're indisputable, sure.

Like?

Superman can fly, Spider-Man can cling to walls, the Silver Surfer has no balls.

Where was it established that the Spectre couldn't drain Black Adam's power?

In Day of Venegence. He couldn't drain either Cap or Adam.

Could you post the relevant pages, please?

What's needlessly improbable about the idea that Billy was playing possum?

Everything? Why would Cap need to play possum for Batman?

He wouldn't need to, but he might want to.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 02:39:20 AM by The Shuruku Demon »

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2018, 01:02:40 AM »
It isn't a slugfest per the ICT definition, but it is a slugfest per the dictionary definition.

Prove that where it's including magic lightning amped punches.

I don't need to. There's no contradiction between the dictionary definition of the word "slugfest" and this thread scenario.


Yes, you do. Now quit stalling and post the proof or I accept your concession again.
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Did you or did you not suggest that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proved he wasn't holding back?

No more discussion on it. You lost your chance, you conceded.

If you don't want to discuss it anymore, stop replying. Until then, I'm going to keep asking you to explain your position. Did you or did you not suggest that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proved he wasn't holding back?


You conceded after I gave you several chances. No more discussion about it.
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Not if Superman moved fast enough. He has super-speed, remember?

So does Captain Marvel. Are you suggesting Superman moves so fast Cap can't even see or feel him moving?

If Superman is using his super-speed and Billy isn't, yes.


What makes you think Cap wasn't using super speed?
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For the eighth time: Was Billy expecting the light to go out?

Did the light punch him? Why are you so fixated on the light?

No, the light didn't punch Billy. And I'm asking about the light because it pertains to whether Billy was surprised or not. So for the ninth time: Was Billy expecting the light to go out?


Again, why are you fixated on the light? Did it punch him?
Quote


He was apparently injured enough to be retired from active duty for a while, but it doesn't follow that he necessarily had near-fatal injuries.

Why is that? Proof of that being?

Because it doesn't take near-fatal injuries for someone to need to take time off from (or be considered unfit to) work.


So why would the writer has Fire say Cap being alive is a wonder?
Quote


Not necessarily. And your overall argument isn't consistent with that assertion, since you've disputed various statements yourself, like Eclipso saying Lar Gand was more powerful than Superman.

Why not. What's contradicting Fire?

Statements made by characters in comicbooks don't necessarily reflect the writer's POV, because writers often portray characters who have different personalities and outlooks than their own. For example, Peter David has written a character that was homophobic, but David himself isn't homophobic, and wouldn't endorse the views that character expressed. In the individual case of Fire's statement, it could have reflected what the writer believed, but it's on you to prove that if that's what your claiming.


That was a simple statement. What's contradicting it and why would the writer include it if it was false?

Again with your red herrings?
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I didn't say Lar wasn't more powerful than Superman.

You implied that when you questioned Eclipso's assessment of Superman's power level (Abhi: "So both Eclipso and Superman didn't know how tough Superman is.").


That doesn't mean what you are trying to say.
Quote



And?

Eclipso said Lar Gand was more powerful than Superman. Do you accept that as the writer's POV?


Maybe.
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Must have been? No. Could have been? Yes.

So Superman wasn't hitting Cap as hard as he did to Lar Gand?

This isn't a multiple choice option question. Only yes or no can be an answer here.

Maybe.


Gotcha.
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In this case, I don't know whether Superman was stronger than Captain Marvel, and nothing I've argued requires me to know that.

Yes, you do ask for straight answers. And keep score of asking questions.

You're a hypocrite.

When I ask you questions over and over, it's usually because you've failed to give a direct answer at all, including "maybe" or "I don't know".


Yet you ask for straight answers. Like Cap surprised by the light or not.

You're a hypocrite.
Quote


My point is about the process, not the result. So do you see the difference between someone achieving something on their own, and an outside factor doing it for them?

My point is the result. I don't require to know how it's done after all as you said.

Your point appears to be about the process as well, since you seem to think the Surfer doesn't deserve full credit for his win over Beta Ray Bill, on the basis that he used his board to strike BRB in the back at one point. But the Surfer wasn't assisted by any outside factors there; it was a one-on-one fight, and he defeated BRB using nothing more than his own skill and power, so he does deserve full credit for that win.


I'm not required to know about that.
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Perhaps he did, or perhaps he didn't. We simply don't know.

We do know he was in a chokehold and unable to break free previously.

So either he broke free and that would ruin the element of surprise or he didn't.

There is no other option.

There are a couple of other options. 1) Eclipso got loose before Billy was distracted by the light going out, or 2) While Billy was distracted by the light, Eclipso broke free and spun around with a punch before Billy's focus was fully back on him.


You need to prove either. Until then, those are just your assumptions. Superman breaking free would ruin the surprise moment.
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Bloodwynd said Billy's injuries prevented him from joining the search, which isn't the same as saying it was a wonder that Billy was still alive.

So a bunch of bruises were enough to bench him?

I don't know. The injuries could've been more than just bruising though.


But those were not shown in the art.

How do you know that the injuries were more than bruises?
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I think Superman has more skill, intestinal fortitude and willpower than Billy. But you may disagree, since you don't seem to factor anything but raw power into Superman's wins.

But Eclipso isn't Superman.

No, but I wasn't suggesting Superman's skill or willpower were factors in the Eclipso-Supes/Billy fight. I'm suggesting they were factors in Superman's win over Eclipso-Lar.


And what about Eclipso vs Billy?

And Superman attributed it to not knowing how tough he really was.
Quote


Are you actually going to respond to the thread, Abhi? I'm still waiting. :)
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg367810#msg367810

Why should I? You obviously need my opinion to validate yours.

It's just more fun this way.

You should respond to the other thread to prove you weren't full of shit there.


I already know and proved that.

Keep bumping the thread though. It's just funny.
Quote


I've been pretty clear about the fact that I think Billy was holding back for most, if not all, of his fight with the Eclipsed Superman. Your position is less clear though. Do you think Billy was holding back at any point in the fight?

I don't require to know that.

You do if you dispute that Billy was holding back. If you agree he may've been holding back though, then saying you don't know is fine. So do you accept that Billy may've been holding back against Eclipso-Supes?


Nope, not required to know that.
Quote


Are you suggesting he was holding back in the entire fight?

Possibly. Certainly most of it IMO.


Yes or no.
Quote


No, most superheroes almost always hold back. When it comes to Superman, you appear to accept this. But when it comes to other heroes like Captain Marvel, your default assumption seems to be that they're not holding back until proven otherwise, which shows a profound ignorance of basic superhero psychology.

Only if you are arguing for a hero, they are always holding back. Despite their actions or dialog.

Is there a conventional superhero (not an antihero, like the Punisher) I've suggested doesn't hold back most of the time?


Superman against Lar Gand.
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Maybe.

But you said heroes always hold back. Now they don't?

Heroes like Superman almost always hold back.


Excluding the fights like Lar Gand, right?
Quote


"Maybe" or "I don't know" are straight answers.

For a lawyer maybe.

No, for anyone who's honest, because no one knows the correct answer to every question.


You're hardly honest.
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Not necessarily. We're talking about imaginary, superpowered beings here, not regular, real world humans.

Who don't get asphyxiated unless it's specifically stated.

But Superman was obviously at full strength while nearly passed out.

He could've been, if the writer wanted him to be.


And where was that stated?
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Superman may've been stronger than Captain Marvel, but he doesn't need to be stronger to be more powerful.

So what other powers would make him more powerful? That's not what you said when it came to Superman/Martian Manhunter.

J'onn is more versatile than Superman. Post-Crisis Billy was at best equal to Superman in versatility, and arguably less versatile. Billy lacks Superman's superhuman senses, superhuman metabolism (Captain Marvel sweats, Superman doesn't), superhuman lung capacity, super-breath, super-cold breath, senses and vision powers, including heat-vision. He's also below Superman in their shared power of super-speed. Billy now makes up for the lack of heat-vision with his Shazam bolts and lightning-charged punches, but both of those were introduced years after Eclipso: The Darkness Within.


So you think the writer was taking freeze breath or HV to take into account where Superman was more powerful?

Nevermind that most of those attributes were established years after Eclipso crossover.

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Strength and durability aren't always in proportion between different characters. The Hulk's durability edge over Thor has been much clearer and more consistent over the years than his strength edge.

In that instance it was.

Hulk gets more durable the stronger he is.

If you want to claim that Thor and the Hulk's strength and durability were completely in proportion in THOR #385, it's on you to prove that.


Why would I need to do that?
Quote


Of course a character can hold back to different degrees. We ordinary humans do it all the time in the real world, and the range of force we're capable of using is much smaller than the range of force available to a character with top-tier strength.

What, you thought holding back was a binary setting, like a light switch? Everything or nothing?

But we don't hold by degrees and still hold back once we mean going full on assault after someone forces us to get rough.

In a fight like Captain Marvel and Eclipso I don't think any human would hold back.

You just used the phrase "going full on assault", but what Billy actually said is that Superman was forcing him to start "getting rough". And "getting rough" is a subjective term, meaning different things to different people.


Not in this instance though.
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Superman was more formidable in that story, and is more formidable on average.

But not stronger?

Superman almost certainly is stronger under some writers. Not all of them though.


Was he stronger in action comics annual 4?
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I don't know who, if anyone, was hitting harder between Superman and the Eclipsed Superman in the scenes we're discussing. What I do know is that Superman was in an almighty hurry to win his fight as quickly as possible. Perhaps he landed a greater number of blows within that shorter timespan.

So it was off panel punching that took Lar Gand out? Just like off panel surprise from Superman against Captain Marvel.

Your "theories" never fail to amuse.

So you don't think Superman could've landed more blows against Eclipso-Lar than Eclipso-Supes did against Billy?
No.

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2018, 01:28:18 AM »
Haha, so now you're reduced to arguing that Batman is a poor detective. Good grief. ::)

Batman did detective work when Superman was weakened by kryptonite? He simply observed when Superman was glaringaly weakened.

When did Batman observe that "Superman was glaringaly [sic] weakened"?


The instance where he "thought" kryptonite was piercing the atmosphere.
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But yes, Batman under Loeb wasn't particularly good at Detective work.

Do you think Fire would be portrayed as being as smart as Batman under Loeb, or any writer for that matter?


She didn't need to see Cap being alive was a wonder.
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Called bullshit, how?

He said that Superman was just flying slowly and not avoiding radar.

I assume you're referring to Katana, not Toyman. Katana said she thought Superman was just flying slowly, but that was before Superman explained that he was flying carefully to stay below Toyman's radar. And Superman would know the truth of that better than she would.


Yeah, Katana.

She called bullshit AFTER he explained it. Now why would the writer do that?
Quote


I just told you why. Superman wanted to find out if PG was feeling any K-radiation to confirm to himself whether he was or not. Do you have an alternative explanation for why he asked her that question?

He wanted to know if she was affected by kryptonite or not.

Why? Of what use was that information at that particular time, to Superman or the story?


To confirm if he was the only one feeling it.
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According to what Billy said in a scan you already posted, the Wizard is far more powerful than he is.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/l78Q9MzrxT5OBR0LRaZUWCTVE31Gnx98Y0SDMe_aeLSkKx7NVt0aghg6L7i-5sY65BjmT5k1AstY=s1600

That doesn't prove his random lightning bolts are more powerful than Shazam bolts.

No, but it suggests he's capable of producing more powerful bolts. Why would the Wizard use weaker bolts in that scene?


To not kill Superman.
Quote


Hold on, are you suggesting we can only compare a Loeb showing with another Loeb showing? And if so, why?

Different writers clause. You coined it after all.

I only apply that when attempting to interpret a specific writer's intent. It doesn't apply when comparing average power levels. I don't need to see Superman and Hancock written by the same author to conclude that Superman has more impressive feats. Likewise, I don't need to see Shazam bolts and lightning-charged punches portrayed by the same author to conclude which has more impressive feats.


Nope, not convinced. Try again.
Quote


Adam said Isis' power was greater than his own. So if his Shazam bolts in WW3 contained his total power plus Isis' total power, that'd make them over twice as powerful as usual. Do we have any indication that his punches were over twice as powerful as usual?



So only his lightning bolt was amped?

I don't know; I'm skeptical that Adam's Shazam bolts were amped in the first place. But I asked you a question: Do we have any indication that his punches were over twice as powerful as usual?


So only his lightning was amped?
Quote


So we can assess how impressive those showings are.

For what reason?

Because you suggested Billy's Shazam bolts were more damaging than his lightning-charged punches. And in order to test the accuracy of that claim, we need to compare the showings those attacks have had.


I already gave you two.

That's enough.
Quote


We don't need to restrict ourselves to showings which specifically involved lightning-amped punches. We can use Captain Marvel's standard punches as a benchmark, and the punches of other characters who're roughly on his level, like Black Adam.

No, we wouldn't do that. You said the lightning amped punches are more powerful than the Shazam bolt.

Now prove that.

I don't recall saying that lightning-charged punches are more powerful than Shazam bolts. Could you link the statement you have in mind?


So what's your point here?
Quote


So? Are you suggesting the Shazam bolts that turn him into Billy Batson aren't as powerful as the ones that turn him into Captain Marvel?

No, there effect on Cap is just to take his power away. If it hits someone else, it's a magical lightning bolt striking with his full power.

So where was Billy's total power in the scene below? Was it in his Captain Marvel form, the Shazam bolt he summoned, or both?


Who knows.
Quote



Quote


To my knowledge, he's never expressed pain from being hit by a Shazam bolt, so I assume he's likely immune to any destructive effects those bolts have.

Can you show all the instances this happened?

Can I show all the instances where Billy was hit by a Shazam bolt without expressing pain? No. I could post a few examples if you like though.


No, all of those. As you expect from me.
Quote


SBP wasn't just crying out in apparent pain, he was physically reacting to Adam's punches as though he were being staggered by them.

Where did you get that from?

From the art and the dialogue.


Where?
Quote


He knocked Billy down. What of it?

Shazam couldn't do that with a lightning amped punch when Superman braced himself.

He "couldn't" do it with a single attempt. That's hardly definitive.


In that instance it was.
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You just can't stop trying to put words in my mouth, can you? Have you ever been diagnosed with OCSD? (Obsessive-Compulsive Strawmanning Disorder?)

I'm just saying what you always say.

So was Shazam weaker, stronger or equal to Captain Marvel?

I haven't read many Nu52 stories, but my impression is that Nu52 Shazam is weaker than Superman.


And post crisis Captain Marvel?

Quote


I'm saying I'd like you to post the page or pages you're talking about, so we can all see exactly what you mean. Here's a link to the issue itself, so you just need to link the specific page/s.
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Issue-102?id=16494

So you didn't read the scene where a Shazam lightning bolt becomes sentient?

No, I didn't. So are you going to post it, or what?


I'm just seeing how far you can go without admitting to it.
Quote


I've already explained why it's reasonable to think that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME. So yeah, if you were to claim that it's impossible that he was influenced by that story, I'd certainly ask you to explain that.

Haha, now I've to prove Jurgens wasn't influenced by Kingdom Come when you never proved it in the first place.

Never change Shuruku.

You only have to prove Jurgens wasn't influenced by KINGDOM COME if you're claiming he wasn't. So are you claiming he wasn't?


You claimed he was. Why don't you prove it in the first place? You know homages, implications and whatnot.
Quote


I can't prove for a fact that Jurgens was influenced by KINGDOM COME, but so what? Are we supposed to assume he definitely wasn't if we don't know for a fact that he was? That's a basic logical fallacy known as an argument from ignorance. I must've posted this link for you half a dozen times already. Did you ever get around to reading it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Because you just make shit up and ask me to disprove it. That's just a shit argument from start and not ignorance.

I only ask you prove things you claim or imply.


But you don't need to do that.

Like I said, a hypocrite.
Quote


Why would Jurgens be influenced by Kingdom Come? He was writing Superman for years before it was published.

Jurgens couldn't have been influenced by KINGDOM COME before reading it, but if he did read it at some point, it could've influenced his thinking from that point forward.


Why?
Quote


So you have no idea? No theory?

I don't require to know that.

You kinda do, because you're insisting you know for a fact that Billy directly absorbed the Wizard's power, and you can't credibly insist on that while simultaneously admitting you have no clue what happened. That's like trying to lead people in a given direction while admitting you're blind.


I'm insisting that because Billy said it. How he did is not the concern here.
Quote


It's a common trope for Billy to consume the Wizard's power, and then for that power to flow back into the Wizard?

Stop being obtuse. It's a common trope for anyone to steal power from a character and upon being defeated the power returns to original character.

There's no dispute that the power Billy had returned to the Wizard though. What we're debating is how and when Billy gained that power in the first place.


You are. I'm not.
Quote

It proves a general principle, which is that things can happen without them being shown on-panel.

Nope, it's a random red herring.

Explain why it's a red herring.


I'm not required to do that.
Quote


Yeah, seriously, post it, please. The tension of waiting for this scan is killing me.

No, seriously?

Yes, seriously.


No, really?
Quote


Adam only used it as a blunt instrument.

So? Obviously it didn't kill him but only weakened him.

It didn't look like it fazed him much. He struck back immediately, and with authority.






So it weakened Cap. What's the point of writing about the stone if it didn't do anything?
Quote


What "random speculations" are you referring to?

Gluttony somehow able to drain Adam.

I accept that's speculation, but if you're arguing that the Wizard's power was automatically sent to Billy when he was turned to stone by Johnny Sorrow, that too is speculation. Is that what you think happened?


That's not a speculation as that's what was shown.
Quote


Things that're indisputable, sure.

Like?

Superman can fly, Spider-Man can cling to walls, the Silver Surfer has no balls.


Anything above kindergarten level?
Quote


Where was it established that the Spectre couldn't drain Black Adam's power?

In Day of Venegence. He couldn't drain either Cap or Adam.

Could you post the relevant pages, please?


JSA 74-75 and DOV 3.
Quote


What's needlessly improbable about the idea that Billy was playing possum?

Everything? Why would Cap need to play possum for Batman?

He wouldn't need to, but he might want to.

Why?