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Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2018, 01:52:58 AM »
The fact that you can't account for the purpose of what Batman said in S/B #6 doesn't necessarily mean it had no purpose. The failure may simply lie with you and your refusal to entertain more than one possible interpretation of the story.

Yes, it does. Superman and Luthor's statements match each other enough to invalidate Batman's statement.

Even Jeph Loeb said that in an interview.

Why do you keep trying to attribute what Luthor's aide said to Luthor himself? To lend the statement more credibility?

Does that makes any difference? Was Jeph Loeb lying in his interview as well?

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The reason Batman wasn't necessarily wrong... is the fact that he could've been right. He usually is.

So Luthor and Superman were wrong? Superman can't feel what's weakening him but Batman can?

Lo and behold, same bullshit.

Luthor's aide never definitively stated when the K-rays would reach Earth, so there isn't strictly a contradiction between his statement and Batman's. As for Superman, which statement of his are you referring to?

Yes, there is.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/f1--ibzk3FhlqAoAZlmkz4Cq5gN3ASBoVRTYa3IqHxTHi9USsEmQW1o-TVVOwMgV-GlbS-8yF0F0=s1600

Superman's statements about kryptonite poisoning with power girl, he was flying slowly than usual and Batman saying he was maybe feeling the effect of kryptonite are proof enough.

Even the writer said it in an interview but obviously that's nothing to what you think happened.

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Those bolts didn't take Eclipso-Supes out, but they did put him on the defensive. It suggests that if Billy used magic lightning-charged punches against Superman, it'd likely give him the advantage in an exchange of blows.

Defensive? Superman almost killed Billy until Shazam saved him.

Eclipso-Supes grabbed and could've killed the teenaged Billy Batson? Wow, stop the presses everyone, Abhi's just proven that Superman is stronger than a powerless human boy. What a gangsta.

Its Billy's stupidity that Superman took advantage of.

Even with the complete power Billy has on his disposal, he can't beat Superman.


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And a shazam lightning bolt is far more powerful than simple lightning punches.

What makes you think that?

Its Cap's total power concentrated in a lightning bolt.

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The scene Morrison wrote where Billy knocked Superman out with lightning-charged punches suggests the same thing, as does the scene Johns wrote where Black Adam used lightning-charged punches against Superboy Prime.

Cap was stated to be lucky against Superman and it wasn't just magic amped punches.

Yeah, Cap said he got lucky, but that doesn't mean charged punches like those wouldn't give him the edge in a slugfest.

That was never stated and it never amounted to much.

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Prime no sold Adam, under the same writer Superman was drawing blood against an amped SBP and so did Superboy.

Prime didn't actually have a magic weakness though. The implication of that scene is that if he did have that weakness, Black Adam could've taken him down.

Where is that implication? The same writer had Superman hitting SBP harder than Adam did.

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Johns himself had new 52 Superman shrug off lightning amped punches from Shazam.

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/superman-vs-shazam-new-52-1.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/superman-vs-shazam-new-52-2.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/superman-vs-shazam-new-52-3.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/superman-vs-shazam-new-52-4.jpg

Those punches looked pretty effective to me. And I'm not sure Nu52 Shazam is as strong as post-Crisis Captain Marvel.

Effective to make Superman pissed off and floor Shazam?

Why wouldn't he be? Even an injured Black Adam moved the moon with Sinestro. That's better than any strength feat Cap or Adam had post crisis.

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Yeah, it wasn't obviously a factor as far as Jurgens was concerned. He's stated that Thor would beat Superman due to the magic weakness though. Maybe he thinks magic lightning is needed to exploit that weakness.

Right, the guy who thinks magic is a weakness for Superman didn't take magic in factor.

He didn't acknowledge the weakness in the Captain Thunder fight though, did he? It's not unreasonable to think that the magic lightning makes a difference, in the minds of some writers at least.

Where did you get that he didn't take magic into account or lightning would trigger Superman's magic weakness under Jurgens? He had superman being affected by magical creatures when they didn't had magical lightning.

He never said Thor would win against Superman due to magic lightning either.

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Billy said he'd consumed the Wizard's power, but it's not entirely clear what he meant by that. He may just have meant the power he absorbed from Adam, Mary and Freddy. Even if he meant that he'd consumed whatever power the Wizard normally retains for himself, it's not clear when he did that, since that statement was made pretty late in the story. His ability to absorb the lightning from the other Marvels may simply have been a by-product of his possession by the gluttony demon. That makes more sense to me than the idea that the Wizard being turned to stone by Johnny Sorrow would automatically send his power to Billy.

The why did the power flowed back to Wizard and he said "finally free".

The lightning that returned to him from Billy restored him to flesh and blood, but that doesn't mean all his power flowed to Billy when he was turned to stone in the first place.

Why not? Billy saying Shazam has never flowed lightning back to Wizard before or after. And Cap flat out said he had consumed entire power of the wizard.

But you know better, right?

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How do you know Billy wasn't playing possum?

Because it was never shown or implied.

The way Billy opened his eyes and smiled as soon as Batman was within range of his Shazam bolt can certainly be read as a hint that he was deliberately lying in wait for him. And why would Billy be in human form if he was unconscious? Doesn't he need to say "Shazam" to power down?

Again, Jeph Loeb shenanigans. The same way Batman didn't know Billy was Cap.

Where did lightning struck to change Cap into Billy? Jeph Loeb thought Cap getting koed would change him into Billy.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2018, 01:27:30 AM »
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/slugfest

slugfest in British

noun informal

1. a boxing match in which opponents trade heavy blows

slugfest in American

noun Informal

1. a fight or boxing match characterized by much heavy punching

Does it also mentions one combatant using magic lightning to amp his punches?

No, but this thread scenario fits the description of a fight characterised by much heavy punching.

How is asking you to clarify/justify your position (on whether Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Superman from behind proves he wasn't holding back) a red herring?

Nope, already accepted your concession. Use your "venom getting attacked by Superman" rhetoric on someone else.

I'm asking you to explain if and why you think Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back. You needn't make any reference to Venom in order to answer those questions.

Because a surprise is something unexpected. So was Billy expecting the light to go out?

Why would that surprise him?

If Billy wasn't expecting the light to go out, then it would necessarily be a surprise to him, per the definition of the word "surprise".

==================================================

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/surprise

1. countable noun
 
A surprise is an unexpected event, fact, or piece of news.

2. uncountable noun
 
Surprise is the feeling that you have when something unexpected happens.


==================================================

So, was Billy expecting the light to go out?

Not necessarily. We saw him after the fight, and he didn't look like a guy who had near-fatal injuries.

The art was not clear, the dialog was pretty clear. It wasn't shown that Cap had any injuries either but Bloodwynd made it clear as well.

The art was clear enough. We see that shortly after the fight, Billy is able to fly, stand up straight, and speak normally. He looks beat up, but he isn't presented as someone with near-fatal injuries.








Doesn't it suggest he wanted to kill Billy?

No. He spared him when he had the chance.

Only because he saw that the solar spotlight was still operational, which meant he was in danger of losing Superman's body. He clearly intended to kill Billy before he noticed that.




The Surfer's board isn't an outside factor; it's a tool of the Surfer's, part of his power.

Yet, it surprised Bill. Its a standard cheapshot.

There's a big difference between surprising your opponent through your own power and/or skill, and surprising your opponent because their attention was diverted by an outside factor.

We don't know if Eclipso was still in the hold when the light went out. He wasn't visible for four panels.

So he was just outside the hold without any reason whatsoever?

We don't know, and we should keep an open mind about things that weren't visible on-panel.

Even if that were true, Superman isn't allowed to use throws in this thread scenario, or in standard slugfests for that matter.

Yet he can use that kind of force to KO Cap. He was weakened after all.

Superman clearly stated that Billy had the advantage toe-to-toe.

If it makes little or no difference either way in your eyes, why don't you just stick to what Fire actually said, instead of changing her words to say Billy was "lucky to be alive" or "almost killed"?

It makes no difference at all.

The way you insist on using different words than the ones Fire herself used says otherwise.

Because Superman could simply have been mistaken about how tough he was. And what Superman knew about his toughness has no obvious bearing on Eclipso's ability to sense his power level.

So both Eclipso and Superman didn't know how tough Superman is.

Sounds like dynamic strength to me.

Where is it established that Eclipso didn't know how powerful Superman was?

Eclipso going for the kill while Billy held back is at least part of the reason Billy lost the way he did, in my view. I didn't say it was the only reason, but it should be acknowledged.

So Billy held back to almost death when he explicitly said that he would go rough three pages in the fight?

Three pages in? The fight was fifteen pages in total, counting only the pages where Eclipso-Supes and Billy were on-panel, and Billy's remark about being forced to "start getting rough" happened on the twelfth of those fifteen pages.

I didn't say Billy was Superman's equal in strength, but he could've been. They looked very close to equal in that fight.

Looking equal doesn't shows on Superman's face.

If two guys are roughly equal in strength, but one is out for the kill while the other is holding back, it's only natural that the guy who was holding back would take more damage from each blow landed.

Did Thor also looked equal to Hulk when Hulk rearranged his face?

Thor looked roughly equal in strength to the Hulk for most of that fight. The fight only turned in the Hulk's favour when Thor was distracting by an oncoming train, allowing the Hulk to hit him while his head was turned. The Hulk may well have been stronger by the end of the fight as well, but he definitely exploited that distraction.

That's open to interpretation, but if we accept what Eclipso said about Lar Gand being more powerful than Superman, then Supes' victory likely wasn't a result of him being stronger than Lar. And before you say I'm contradicting myself on the power/strength thing, Superman and Lar had near-identical powersets, whereas Billy's powerset differed from theirs in a number of ways. Also, the reason Daxamites were billed as being stronger than Kryptonians at that time was to justify why Lar was capable of the kind of feats (including strength feats) performed by pre-Crisis Superboy. So it's pretty obvious Lar was supposed to be outright stronger than post-Crisis Supes back then.

So how did Superman beat Lar Gand so badly that he needed medical attention?

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/RyewijXFvbjQitcmcMFfSLpociOUzr5VynshkcL3Wkz2gInOkL3Ti7SELIJ6-BET5eu1W312WJNE=s1600

Supes was evidently strong enough to injure Lar. Doesn't mean he was stronger though.

Its funny, you cite Superman fighting savagely and going for the kill is the reason he beat Cap. But when the same happened against Superman by Lar Gand, you flip out and say its not due to strength.

Did Superman try to kill Lar Gand then?

I don't believe he intended to kill Lar, but I don't think he held back as much as Billy did. Billy came across as naïve in his fight with Eclipso-Supes; he kept calling him "Superman" and trying to reason with him, like he didn't understand that Supes was actually possessed by a being who couldn't be talked down. Superman didn't attempt to talk Eclipso-Lar down at all. That may in part be because they were fighting on the Moon, and there was no atmosphere, but Superman didn't seem to have any misconception about the fact that Lar was possessed and that he couldn't be reasoned with (perhaps because he'd been possessed by Eclipso himself). Superman was also consciously fighting for his life from the start, since there was no atmosphere to breathe, and Eclipso knocked the stored oxygen out of his lungs with his first attack. So I think Supes gave it pretty close to his all from the beginning, because he knew he'd be dead otherwise, whereas Billy didn't behave like someone who knew he was in a life-or-death situation during his clash with Eclipso-Supes.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2018, 01:44:28 AM »
Why do you keep trying to attribute what Luthor's aide said to Luthor himself? To lend the statement more credibility?

Does that makes any difference? Was Jeph Loeb lying in his interview as well?

The aide wasn't lying. He was just giving a prediction as to the earliest point at which the asteroid's radiation might start affecting the Earth, hence the word "could" rather than "would".

As for Loeb, didn't he say that the asteroid started to affect Superman some time after it travelled past Neptune? Well, Batman's statement doesn't strictly contradict that either. Also, while I do like to interpret a story in line with the author's intent, the author's stated intent can lose relevance in my mind, if what they say directly contradicts what's stated within the story itself. So if you want to take what Loeb said as being in direct conflict with what Batman said, then it's not at all a given to me that Loeb's statement should necessarily take precedence. If Loeb wanted Batman's statement to be taken as inaccurate, he should've debunked it within the story itself.

Luthor's aide never definitively stated when the K-rays would reach Earth, so there isn't strictly a contradiction between his statement and Batman's. As for Superman, which statement of his are you referring to?

Yes, there is.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/f1--ibzk3FhlqAoAZlmkz4Cq5gN3ASBoVRTYa3IqHxTHi9USsEmQW1o-TVVOwMgV-GlbS-8yF0F0=s1600

Superman's statements about kryptonite poisoning with power girl, he was flying slowly than usual and Batman saying he was maybe feeling the effect of kryptonite are proof enough.

These statements were all equivocal; coulds, mights, and maybes. Batman's statement was the first definitive confirmation of when the K-rays began to enter Earth's atmosphere. Not only that, but S/B #6 was also the first issue where Superman was explicitly affected by the K-rays, and the first issue in which we saw the skies turning green, i.e. visual evidence of K-radiation within Earth's atmosphere.

Even the writer said it in an interview but obviously that's nothing to what you think happened.

What Batman thinks happened, you mean. Not only are you trying to attribute what Luthor's aide said to Luthor himself, but you're now trying to attribute Batman's statement to me. If you don't like Batman's statement, blame Loeb, because he scripted it.

Eclipso-Supes grabbed and could've killed the teenaged Billy Batson? Wow, stop the presses everyone, Abhi's just proven that Superman is stronger than a powerless human boy. What a gangsta.

Its Billy's stupidity that Superman took advantage of.

Even with the complete power Billy has on his disposal, he can't beat Superman.

The only offense Eclipso-Supes managed to muster while getting zapped by those Shazam bolts was the act of grabbing and choking a powerless human boy. If Billy could've summoned those bolts without powering down, Eclipso would've been screwed, as KC Superman would've been if the same thing applied in KINGDOM COME.

What makes you think that?

Its Cap's total power concentrated in a lightning bolt.

But the Shazam bolt's purpose is to transmit the power to Billy, not to destroy things. And in practice, it hasn't been shown to have a great deal of destructive force.

Yeah, Cap said he got lucky, but that doesn't mean charged punches like those wouldn't give him the edge in a slugfest.

That was never stated and it never amounted to much.

Of course it wasn't specifically stated, because nobody discussed a slugfest scenario in that issue. But if Billy is near Superman's level in strength and durability, and he can exploit Superman's magic weakness on top of that, it's logical to think he'd have the edge in a scenario where they're trading attacks, but every one of his attacks exploits a weakness of Superman's, while he has no comparable weakness for Superman to exploit.

Prime didn't actually have a magic weakness though. The implication of that scene is that if he did have that weakness, Black Adam could've taken him down.

Where is that implication? The same writer had Superman hitting SBP harder than Adam did.

The implication is in the way SBP reacted to Adam's lightning-charged punches. He was simulating how he might've been affected had the magic weakness applied to him.

Those punches looked pretty effective to me. And I'm not sure Nu52 Shazam is as strong as post-Crisis Captain Marvel.

Effective to make Superman pissed off and floor Shazam?

They floored each other, and it was only a brief exchange.

Why wouldn't he be? Even an injured Black Adam moved the moon with Sinestro. That's better than any strength feat Cap or Adam had post crisis.

Lifting feats like that aren't the best way to gauge relative strength. Nu52 Billy is a different version of the character with a different powerset, so nothing should be assumed in regard to whether or not he's equal in strength to post-Crisis CM.

He didn't acknowledge the weakness in the Captain Thunder fight though, did he? It's not unreasonable to think that the magic lightning makes a difference, in the minds of some writers at least.

Where did you get that he didn't take magic into account or lightning would trigger Superman's magic weakness under Jurgens? He had superman being affected by magical creatures when they didn't had magical lightning.

Sure, but we know that because the magic weakness was mentioned in those instances, whereas it wasn't mentioned in the Captain Thunder fight. That doesn't confirm for sure that it wasn't a factor in Jurgens' mind, but it's odd that he wouldn't mention it if he intended it to be a factor. And if we look at Superman's fights with Billy in general, on all but one of the occasions where Superman's magic weakness was mentioned in their fights, it was when Billy used magic lightning against him.

He never said Thor would win against Superman due to magic lightning either.

No, but it's logical to think Thor's magic lightning is a significant factor in his mind, since he's specifically said Superman is stronger than Thor, but would lose to him on account of the magic weakness.

The lightning that returned to him from Billy restored him to flesh and blood, but that doesn't mean all his power flowed to Billy when he was turned to stone in the first place.

Why not?

Because it doesn't specifically show or state that that's what happened. Plus, but we didn't see any lightning leaving the Wizard as he was turned to stone, and the Seven Deadly Enemies of Man weren't released until some time after the Wizard was incapacitated. If all the Wizard's power was sent to Billy as soon as he was turned to stone, the Sins should've be released immediately.

Billy saying Shazam has never flowed lightning back to Wizard before or after.

Can you prove that, or are you just assuming that?

And I'm curious. If you think Billy's stats were amped in Virtue and Vice, do you think his stats were also amped when he became the Wizard himself and got beaten up by Black Adam?
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Justice-Society-of-America/Issue-23?id=11711#13

And Cap flat out said he had consumed entire power of the wizard.

But the only power we saw Billy consuming was that within Adam, Mary and Freddy. Maybe that's all he was talking about. If not, we can only speculate about when exactly he consumed power directly from the Wizard himself.

The way Billy opened his eyes and smiled as soon as Batman was within range of his Shazam bolt can certainly be read as a hint that he was deliberately lying in wait for him. And why would Billy be in human form if he was unconscious? Doesn't he need to say "Shazam" to power down?

Again, Jeph Loeb shenanigans. The same way Batman didn't know Billy was Cap.

Where did lightning struck to change Cap into Billy? Jeph Loeb thought Cap getting koed would change him into Billy.

If Billy theoretically powering down without saying his magic word can be explained away as "Jeph Loeb shenanigans", then so can Billy powering down without a lightning bolt appearing. The odds of Captain Marvel being knocked out by being tossed into a sand dune seem rather low. And people who're genuinely regaining consciousness are usually disoriented at first. Billy didn't show any signs of that as he opened his eyes; he looked fully alert and aware of his situation, as if he'd merely been playing possum.

Panthergod

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2018, 01:53:13 AM »
Shuruku, based on direct comic book evidence what reason whatsoever did Superman have to claim Captain Marvel had ANY advantage whatsoever due to magick WITHOUT the context of being weakened by Kryptonite? Cite the EXACT instance Captain Marvel had EVER displayed this supposed advantage in physical combat against Superman prior to Superman/Batman #4.

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2018, 02:02:35 AM »
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/slugfest

slugfest in British

noun informal

1. a boxing match in which opponents trade heavy blows

slugfest in American

noun Informal

1. a fight or boxing match characterized by much heavy punching

Does it also mentions one combatant using magic lightning to amp his punches?

No, but this thread scenario fits the description of a fight characterised by much heavy punching.

It doesn't.

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How is asking you to clarify/justify your position (on whether Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Superman from behind proves he wasn't holding back) a red herring?

Nope, already accepted your concession. Use your "venom getting attacked by Superman" rhetoric on someone else.

I'm asking you to explain if and why you think Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back. You needn't make any reference to Venom in order to answer those questions.

Already accepted your concession. Move along.

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Because a surprise is something unexpected. So was Billy expecting the light to go out?

Why would that surprise him?

If Billy wasn't expecting the light to go out, then it would necessarily be a surprise to him, per the definition of the word "surprise".

No, but why would Superman's attack surprise him? He was in a fight and had Superman in a hold?

Quote

 


So, was Billy expecting the light to go out?

Why does that matter? Why would Cap be surprised by Superman punching him?

Quote
Not necessarily. We saw him after the fight, and he didn't look like a guy who had near-fatal injuries.

The art was not clear, the dialog was pretty clear. It wasn't shown that Cap had any injuries either but Bloodwynd made it clear as well.

The art was clear enough. We see that shortly after the fight, Billy is able to fly, stand up straight, and speak normally. He looks beat up, but he isn't presented as someone with near-fatal injuries.

So the artist made an error. Remember Superman vs pocket dimension kryptonian debate?

Dialog trumps art.




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Doesn't it suggest he wanted to kill Billy?

No. He spared him when he had the chance.

Only because he saw that the solar spotlight was still operational, which meant he was in danger of losing Superman's body. He clearly intended to kill Billy before he noticed that.

Except no, he didn't kill anyone even under Eclipso's influence.


And threatening to kill didn't help Lar Gand against Superman, did it?

Quote
The Surfer's board isn't an outside factor; it's a tool of the Surfer's, part of his power.

Yet, it surprised Bill. Its a standard cheapshot.

There's a big difference between surprising your opponent through your own power and/or skill, and surprising your opponent because their attention was diverted by an outside factor.

A surprise is a surprise. At least you conceded that Surfer surprised Bill. That's a start.

Quote
We don't know if Eclipso was still in the hold when the light went out. He wasn't visible for four panels.

So he was just outside the hold without any reason whatsoever?

We don't know, and we should keep an open mind about things that weren't visible on-panel.

So he was outside the hold without no reason or explanation and we should accept it because you say so?

Quote
Even if that were true, Superman isn't allowed to use throws in this thread scenario, or in standard slugfests for that matter.

Yet he can use that kind of force to KO Cap. He was weakened after all.

Superman clearly stated that Billy had the advantage toe-to-toe.

And yet koed him by a throw. Cap is really a weakling isn't he?

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If it makes little or no difference either way in your eyes, why don't you just stick to what Fire actually said, instead of changing her words to say Billy was "lucky to be alive" or "almost killed"?

It makes no difference at all.

The way you insist on using different words than the ones Fire herself used says otherwise.

Because I misremembered the line. Not that it matters.

Quote
Because Superman could simply have been mistaken about how tough he was. And what Superman knew about his toughness has no obvious bearing on Eclipso's ability to sense his power level.

So both Eclipso and Superman didn't know how tough Superman is.

Sounds like dynamic strength to me.

Where is it established that Eclipso didn't know how powerful Superman was?

Adventures of Superman annual 4. And in the same fight as well.



Yet, even Eclipso didn't realize how powerful Superman was.

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Eclipso going for the kill while Billy held back is at least part of the reason Billy lost the way he did, in my view. I didn't say it was the only reason, but it should be acknowledged.

So Billy held back to almost death when he explicitly said that he would go rough three pages in the fight?

Three pages in? The fight was fifteen pages in total, counting only the pages where Eclipso-Supes and Billy were on-panel, and Billy's remark about being forced to "start getting rough" happened on the twelfth of those fifteen pages.

It was , "I tried to do this easy way".

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/6X6sVAEpXNYRtAKdwjH9BY0dkfNNklZ7id3xU1l64ZSUXRFulwap88y1ax1xxun9xe3a5zCcBpY=s1600

But I like how Billy was holding back entire fight without anything pointing towards it.

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I didn't say Billy was Superman's equal in strength, but he could've been. They looked very close to equal in that fight.

Looking equal doesn't shows on Superman's face.

If two guys are roughly equal in strength, but one is out for the kill while the other is holding back, it's only natural that the guy who was holding back would take more damage from each blow landed.

Tell that to Lar Gand who was going for the kill and Superman wasn't.

Quote
Did Thor also looked equal to Hulk when Hulk rearranged his face?

Thor looked roughly equal in strength to the Hulk for most of that fight. The fight only turned in the Hulk's favour when Thor was distracting by an oncoming train, allowing the Hulk to hit him while his head was turned. The Hulk may well have been stronger by the end of the fight as well, but he definitely exploited that distraction.

So Hulk didn't look stronger than Thor to you, is that it?

Quote
That's open to interpretation, but if we accept what Eclipso said about Lar Gand being more powerful than Superman, then Supes' victory likely wasn't a result of him being stronger than Lar. And before you say I'm contradicting myself on the power/strength thing, Superman and Lar had near-identical powersets, whereas Billy's powerset differed from theirs in a number of ways. Also, the reason Daxamites were billed as being stronger than Kryptonians at that time was to justify why Lar was capable of the kind of feats (including strength feats) performed by pre-Crisis Superboy. So it's pretty obvious Lar was supposed to be outright stronger than post-Crisis Supes back then.

So how did Superman beat Lar Gand so badly that he needed medical attention?

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/RyewijXFvbjQitcmcMFfSLpociOUzr5VynshkcL3Wkz2gInOkL3Ti7SELIJ6-BET5eu1W312WJNE=s1600

Supes was evidently strong enough to injure Lar. Doesn't mean he was stronger though.

But you just said Superman and Captain Marvel's fight means Superman was going for the kill and Captain Marvel was holding back and yet you are reversing it down when Lar Gand was going for the kill and Superman wasn't?

Only one of that can be true. Or are you stating that Captain Marvel was stronger than Lar Gand?

Quote
Its funny, you cite Superman fighting savagely and going for the kill is the reason he beat Cap. But when the same happened against Superman by Lar Gand, you flip out and say its not due to strength.

Did Superman try to kill Lar Gand then?

I don't believe he intended to kill Lar, but I don't think he held back as much as Billy did.

Reason?

Quote
Billy came across as naïve in his fight with Eclipso-Supes; he kept calling him "Superman" and trying to reason with him, like he didn't understand that Supes was actually possessed by a being who couldn't be talked down. Superman didn't attempt to talk Eclipso-Lar down at all. That may in part be because they were fighting on the Moon, and there was no atmosphere, but Superman didn't seem to have any misconception about the fact that Lar was possessed and that he couldn't be reasoned with (perhaps because he'd been possessed by Eclipso himself). Superman was also consciously fighting for his life from the start, since there was no atmosphere to breathe, and Eclipso knocked the stored oxygen out of his lungs with his first attack. So I think Supes gave it pretty close to his all from the beginning, because he knew he'd be dead otherwise, whereas Billy didn't behave like someone who knew he was in a life-or-death situation during his clash with Eclipso-Supes.

That's a lot of rationalization about what happened.

So Superman was going all out against Lar Gand and trying to kill him? Is that what you are trying to say?

Who looked better in these fights Shuruku? Captain Marvel or Superman?

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Action-Comics-1938/Annual-4?id=85432

Or Superman vs Lar Gand.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Eclipso-The-Darkness-Within/Issue-2?id=84390

You are essentially arguing against yourself when it comes to Superman vs Lar Gand.

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2018, 02:19:21 AM »
Why do you keep trying to attribute what Luthor's aide said to Luthor himself? To lend the statement more credibility?

Does that makes any difference? Was Jeph Loeb lying in his interview as well?

The aide wasn't lying. He was just giving a prediction as to the earliest point at which the asteroid's radiation might start affecting the Earth, hence the word "could" rather than "would".

So Jeph Loeb was lying?

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As for Loeb, didn't he say that the asteroid started to affect Superman some time after it travelled past Neptune? Well, Batman's statement doesn't strictly contradict that either. Also, while I do like to interpret a story in line with the author's intent, the author's stated intent can lose relevance in my mind, if what they say directly contradicts what's stated within the story itself. So if you want to take what Loeb said as being in direct conflict with what Batman said, then it's not at all a given to me that Loeb's statement should necessarily take precedence. If Loeb wanted Batman's statement to be taken as inaccurate, he should've debunked it within the story itself.

So the aide and the writer's supporting interview are wrong but Batman was right.

You are so full of yourself its not even funny.

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Luthor's aide never definitively stated when the K-rays would reach Earth, so there isn't strictly a contradiction between his statement and Batman's. As for Superman, which statement of his are you referring to?

Yes, there is.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/f1--ibzk3FhlqAoAZlmkz4Cq5gN3ASBoVRTYa3IqHxTHi9USsEmQW1o-TVVOwMgV-GlbS-8yF0F0=s1600

Superman's statements about kryptonite poisoning with power girl, he was flying slowly than usual and Batman saying he was maybe feeling the effect of kryptonite are proof enough.

These statements were all equivocal; coulds, mights, and maybes. Batman's statement was the first definitive confirmation of when the K-rays began to enter Earth's atmosphere. Not only that, but S/B #6 was also the first issue where Superman was explicitly affected by the K-rays, and the first issue in which we saw the skies turning green, i.e. visual evidence of K-radiation within Earth's atmosphere.

And combined they over weigh Batman's statement which is made on a vacuum seeing Superman's sickness which was shown earlier.

You are wrong, dismissed.

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Even the writer said it in an interview but obviously that's nothing to what you think happened.

What Batman thinks happened, you mean. Not only are you trying to attribute what Luthor's aide said to Luthor himself, but you're now trying to attribute Batman's statement to me. If you don't like Batman's statement, blame Loeb, because he scripted it.

Batman was wrong. As are you.



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Eclipso-Supes grabbed and could've killed the teenaged Billy Batson? Wow, stop the presses everyone, Abhi's just proven that Superman is stronger than a powerless human boy. What a gangsta.

Its Billy's stupidity that Superman took advantage of.

Even with the complete power Billy has on his disposal, he can't beat Superman.

The only offense Eclipso-Supes managed to muster while getting zapped by those Shazam bolts was the act of grabbing and choking a powerless human boy. If Billy could've summoned those bolts without powering down, Eclipso would've been screwed, as KC Superman would've been if the same thing applied in KINGDOM COME.

If Billy wasn't stupid you mean? Cap's full power couldn't bring Superman down five times straight up used.

Even in Kingdom Come, Superman ultimately overcame Billy.

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What makes you think that?

Its Cap's total power concentrated in a lightning bolt.

But the Shazam bolt's purpose is to transmit the power to Billy, not to destroy things. And in practice, it hasn't been shown to have a great deal of destructive force.

It has been shown repeatedly so.

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Yeah, Cap said he got lucky, but that doesn't mean charged punches like those wouldn't give him the edge in a slugfest.

That was never stated and it never amounted to much.

Of course it wasn't specifically stated, because nobody discussed a slugfest scenario in that issue. But if Billy is near Superman's level in strength and durability, and he can exploit Superman's magic weakness on top of that, it's logical to think he'd have the edge in a scenario where they're trading attacks, but every one of his attacks exploits a weakness of Superman's, while he has no comparable weakness for Superman to exploit.

Logically yes, but it never showed up in comics.

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Prime didn't actually have a magic weakness though. The implication of that scene is that if he did have that weakness, Black Adam could've taken him down.

Where is that implication? The same writer had Superman hitting SBP harder than Adam did.

The implication is in the way SBP reacted to Adam's lightning-charged punches. He was simulating how he might've been affected had the magic weakness applied to him.

Where he was simply crying in pain? How is that an implication of anything?

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Those punches looked pretty effective to me. And I'm not sure Nu52 Shazam is as strong as post-Crisis Captain Marvel.

Effective to make Superman pissed off and floor Shazam?

They floored each other, and it was only a brief exchange.

Superman was punched down once and floored Shazam down with one punch.

How is that effective?

Quote
Why wouldn't he be? Even an injured Black Adam moved the moon with Sinestro. That's better than any strength feat Cap or Adam had post crisis.

Lifting feats like that aren't the best way to gauge relative strength. Nu52 Billy is a different version of the character with a different powerset, so nothing should be assumed in regard to whether or not he's equal in strength to post-Crisis CM.

But until you have proof you can't say he is weaker.

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He didn't acknowledge the weakness in the Captain Thunder fight though, did he? It's not unreasonable to think that the magic lightning makes a difference, in the minds of some writers at least.

Where did you get that he didn't take magic into account or lightning would trigger Superman's magic weakness under Jurgens? He had superman being affected by magical creatures when they didn't had magical lightning.

Sure, but we know that because the magic weakness was mentioned in those instances, whereas it wasn't mentioned in the Captain Thunder fight. That doesn't confirm for sure that it wasn't a factor in Jurgens' mind, but it's odd that he wouldn't mention it if he intended it to be a factor. And if we look at Superman's fights with Billy in general, on all but one of the occasions where Superman's magic weakness was mentioned in their fights, it was when Billy used magic lightning against him.

So Jurgens just switched off Superman's magic weakness because you say so?

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He never said Thor would win against Superman due to magic lightning either.

No, but it's logical to think Thor's magic lightning is a significant factor in his mind, since he's specifically said Superman is stronger than Thor, but would lose to him on account of the magic weakness.

So Thor would win because of lightning because you say so?

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The lightning that returned to him from Billy restored him to flesh and blood, but that doesn't mean all his power flowed to Billy when he was turned to stone in the first place.

Why not?

Because it doesn't specifically show or state that that's what happened. Plus, but we didn't see any lightning leaving the Wizard as he was turned to stone, and the Seven Deadly Enemies of Man weren't released until some time after the Wizard was incapacitated. If all the Wizard's power was sent to Billy as soon as he was turned to stone, the Sins should've be released immediately.

But we see Cap saying he consumed full power of wizard and it flowed back to Wizard. He also drained lightning from Adam which only Wizard can do.

Where is the confusion?

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Billy saying Shazam has never flowed lightning back to Wizard before or after.

Can you prove that, or are you just assuming that?

Because it has never been shown?

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And I'm curious. If you think Billy's stats were amped in Virtue and Vice, do you think his stats were also amped when he became the Wizard himself and got beaten up by Black Adam?
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Justice-Society-of-America/Issue-23?id=11711#13

Yes, it was straight up stated.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/7015/1641939-52_100x_more_powerful.jpg

Adam used a rock which could kill Billy to beat him.

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And Cap flat out said he had consumed entire power of the wizard.

But the only power we saw Billy consuming was that within Adam, Mary and Freddy. Maybe that's all he was talking about. If not, we can only speculate about when exactly he consumed power directly from the Wizard himself.

And how did he manage to do that?

We saw power flowing back to Wizard shuruku.

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The way Billy opened his eyes and smiled as soon as Batman was within range of his Shazam bolt can certainly be read as a hint that he was deliberately lying in wait for him. And why would Billy be in human form if he was unconscious? Doesn't he need to say "Shazam" to power down?

Again, Jeph Loeb shenanigans. The same way Batman didn't know Billy was Cap.

Where did lightning struck to change Cap into Billy? Jeph Loeb thought Cap getting koed would change him into Billy.

If Billy theoretically powering down without saying his magic word can be explained away as "Jeph Loeb shenanigans", then so can Billy powering down without a lightning bolt appearing. The odds of Captain Marvel being knocked out by being tossed into a sand dune seem rather low. And people who're genuinely regaining consciousness are usually disoriented at first. Billy didn't show any signs of that as he opened his eyes; he looked fully alert and aware of his situation, as if he'd merely been playing possum.

No, it doesn't when it was shown that to transform from Billy to Cap consciously he needed to say shazam.

There is no indication Cap was playing possum.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2018, 06:10:46 PM »
Shuruku, based on direct comic book evidence what reason whatsoever did Superman have to claim Captain Marvel had ANY advantage whatsoever due to magick WITHOUT the context of being weakened by Kryptonite? Cite the EXACT instance Captain Marvel had EVER displayed this supposed advantage in physical combat against Superman prior to Superman/Batman #4.

There doesn't need to be any prior precedent for what Superman said in S/B #4 to be true under Loeb.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2018, 06:29:24 PM »
No, but this thread scenario fits the description of a fight characterised by much heavy punching.

It doesn't.

How so?

I'm asking you to explain if and why you think Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back. You needn't make any reference to Venom in order to answer those questions.

Already accepted your concession. Move along.

Why are you so reluctant to clarify your stance on whether Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back?

So, was Billy expecting the light to go out?

Why does that matter? Why would Cap be surprised by Superman punching him?

Because if Billy didn't expect the light to go out, it necessarily follows that he was surprised when that happened. So was Billy expecting the light to go out?

The art was clear enough. We see that shortly after the fight, Billy is able to fly, stand up straight, and speak normally. He looks beat up, but he isn't presented as someone with near-fatal injuries.

So the artist made an error. Remember Superman vs pocket dimension kryptonian debate?

So you now accept that Quex-Ul was incorrectly coloured in the first panel of the second page here? Because you denied it at the time, and claimed the character shown in that panel was Superman.




Dialog trumps art.

Fire never said Billy was "almost killed"; you put those words in her mouth.

Only because he saw that the solar spotlight was still operational, which meant he was in danger of losing Superman's body. He clearly intended to kill Billy before he noticed that.

Except no, he didn't kill anyone even under Eclipso's influence.

The fact that Eclipso didn't kill anyone in that issue doesn't prove that he didn't intend to. He clearly expressed the intent to do so, but was interrupted or deterred from doing so each time he had a character at his mercy.

There's a big difference between surprising your opponent through your own power and/or skill, and surprising your opponent because their attention was diverted by an outside factor.

A surprise is a surprise.

A surprise may be a surprise, but the source of the surprise makes all the difference in the world in respect to whether a character deserves sole credit for a win, or whether they were assisted by an outside factor.

We don't know, and we should keep an open mind about things that weren't visible on-panel.

So he was outside the hold without no reason or explanation and we should accept it because you say so?

We should accept that Eclipso wasn't visible for four panels, and that we don't know where he was or what he did in those panels.

The way you insist on using different words than the ones Fire herself used says otherwise.

Because I misremembered the line. Not that it matters.

If you misremembered what Fire said, that's fine, but why don't you stop misquoting her from now on?

Where is it established that Eclipso didn't know how powerful Superman was?

Adventures of Superman annual 4. And in the same fight as well.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/IplX3DwLRTWghGTMDUX03YU1Cw0ZDTtEKXDeEBzK7KfX5GsWyN-RaqZNGxtP2eTKyuE6MhxoFYoT=s1600

Yet, even Eclipso didn't realize how powerful Superman was.

What exactly did Eclipso say or do to indicate that he didn't know how powerful Superman was?

Three pages in? The fight was fifteen pages in total, counting only the pages where Eclipso-Supes and Billy were on-panel, and Billy's remark about being forced to "start getting rough" happened on the twelfth of those fifteen pages.

It was , "I tried to do this easy way".

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/6X6sVAEpXNYRtAKdwjH9BY0dkfNNklZ7id3xU1l64ZSUXRFulwap88y1ax1xxun9xe3a5zCcBpY=s1600

But I like how Billy was holding back entire fight without anything pointing towards it.

Yes, Billy said "I tried to do this the easy way" early on, and then much later in the fight said Eclipso-Supes was forcing him to start getting rough, suggesting he'd been holding back up to then.

And there's nothing outlandish about suggesting that a superhero was holding back in a fight, especially when fighting another hero. Holding back in fights is the default modus operandi for most superheroes, and as a relatively naïve, teenage boy, we shouldn't be surprised that Billy Batson is even less ruthless than the average, adult hero. Your line of argument here suggests you have little or no understanding of superhero psychology.

If two guys are roughly equal in strength, but one is out for the kill while the other is holding back, it's only natural that the guy who was holding back would take more damage from each blow landed.

Tell that to Lar Gand who was going for the kill and Superman wasn't.

Superman may not have been going for the kill, but he wasn't necessarily holding back in terms of the force he was putting behind his attacks, or holding back as much Billy did in any event.

Thor looked roughly equal in strength to the Hulk for most of that fight. The fight only turned in the Hulk's favour when Thor was distracting by an oncoming train, allowing the Hulk to hit him while his head was turned. The Hulk may well have been stronger by the end of the fight as well, but he definitely exploited that distraction.

So Hulk didn't look stronger than Thor to you, is that it?

The Hulk didn't look stronger for most of the fight. It was very back & forth, and we saw them locking up evenly at one point. The Hulk didn't gain the upper hand until he hit Thor while Thor's head was turned to look at the oncoming train. The Hulk may've been stronger by then, but as much as anything else, I got the impression Thor was tiring and being worn down more than the Hulk was.

Billy came across as naïve in his fight with Eclipso-Supes; he kept calling him "Superman" and trying to reason with him, like he didn't understand that Supes was actually possessed by a being who couldn't be talked down. Superman didn't attempt to talk Eclipso-Lar down at all. That may in part be because they were fighting on the Moon, and there was no atmosphere, but Superman didn't seem to have any misconception about the fact that Lar was possessed and that he couldn't be reasoned with (perhaps because he'd been possessed by Eclipso himself). Superman was also consciously fighting for his life from the start, since there was no atmosphere to breathe, and Eclipso knocked the stored oxygen out of his lungs with his first attack. So I think Supes gave it pretty close to his all from the beginning, because he knew he'd be dead otherwise, whereas Billy didn't behave like someone who knew he was in a life-or-death situation during his clash with Eclipso-Supes.

That's a lot of rationalization about what happened.

So Superman was going all out against Lar Gand and trying to kill him? Is that what you are trying to say?

Who looked better in these fights Shuruku? Captain Marvel or Superman?

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Action-Comics-1938/Annual-4?id=85432

Or Superman vs Lar Gand.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Eclipso-The-Darkness-Within/Issue-2?id=84390

You are essentially arguing against yourself when it comes to Superman vs Lar Gand.

I don't think Superman was trying to kill Lar, but you can use your full strength (or a large proportion of it) against an opponent without intending to kill them. And it helps if the opponent is stronger than you are, and moreso if you know that reasoning with them isn't an option, and that you have to take them down as quickly as possible in order to survive yourself. Superman definitely outperformed Billy in that story though, and I've openly acknowledged that for years:
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=3456.msg66535#msg66535
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 11:48:58 PM by The Shuruku Demon »

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2018, 06:45:33 PM »
As for Loeb, didn't he say that the asteroid started to affect Superman some time after it travelled past Neptune? Well, Batman's statement doesn't strictly contradict that either. Also, while I do like to interpret a story in line with the author's intent, the author's stated intent can lose relevance in my mind, if what they say directly contradicts what's stated within the story itself. So if you want to take what Loeb said as being in direct conflict with what Batman said, then it's not at all a given to me that Loeb's statement should necessarily take precedence. If Loeb wanted Batman's statement to be taken as inaccurate, he should've debunked it within the story itself.

So the aide and the writer's supporting interview are wrong but Batman was right.

You are so full of yourself its not even funny.

I don't think any of them were lying. You're the one insisting that we should reject one of these statements as an outright falsehood, but I'm happy to accept them all (especially the two in the story) as being truthful in their own way.

These statements were all equivocal; coulds, mights, and maybes. Batman's statement was the first definitive confirmation of when the K-rays began to enter Earth's atmosphere. Not only that, but S/B #6 was also the first issue where Superman was explicitly affected by the K-rays, and the first issue in which we saw the skies turning green, i.e. visual evidence of K-radiation within Earth's atmosphere.

And combined they over weigh Batman's statement which is made on a vacuum seeing Superman's sickness which was shown earlier.

You are wrong, dismissed.

The various equivocal statements, even stacked up together, cannot outweigh Batman's unequivocal statement, because they neither confirm nor deny what he said.

The only offense Eclipso-Supes managed to muster while getting zapped by those Shazam bolts was the act of grabbing and choking a powerless human boy. If Billy could've summoned those bolts without powering down, Eclipso would've been screwed, as KC Superman would've been if the same thing applied in KINGDOM COME.

If Billy wasn't stupid you mean? Cap's full power couldn't bring Superman down five times straight up used.

Even in Kingdom Come, Superman ultimately overcame Billy.

KC Superman capitalised on Billy having to power up and down each time he summoned a Shazam bolt. If Billy could've remained in his superpowered form the whole time (like he can when he charges his fists with magic lightning), Superman would've been up shit creek without a paddle.

But the Shazam bolt's purpose is to transmit the power to Billy, not to destroy things. And in practice, it hasn't been shown to have a great deal of destructive force.

It has been shown repeatedly so.

Like when Billy failed to KO Batman with a Shazam bolt?

The implication is in the way SBP reacted to Adam's lightning-charged punches. He was simulating how he might've been affected had the magic weakness applied to him.

Where he was simply crying in pain? How is that an implication of anything?

He was reacting as he might've done if the magic weakness applied to him. That was the point of that performance; to briefly fool Black Adam and the reader into thinking he did have that weakness.

They floored each other, and it was only a brief exchange.

Superman was punched down once and floored Shazam down with one punch.

How is that effective?

Those punches (especially the first one) had a decent affect on Superman. An attack doesn't have to KO an opponent, or leave him dazed on the ground, to be considered effective.

Lifting feats like that aren't the best way to gauge relative strength. Nu52 Billy is a different version of the character with a different powerset, so nothing should be assumed in regard to whether or not he's equal in strength to post-Crisis CM.

But until you have proof you can't say he is weaker.

And I didn't say he was weaker, I said I'm not sure he's as strong as post-Crisis Billy.

Sure, but we know that because the magic weakness was mentioned in those instances, whereas it wasn't mentioned in the Captain Thunder fight. That doesn't confirm for sure that it wasn't a factor in Jurgens' mind, but it's odd that he wouldn't mention it if he intended it to be a factor. And if we look at Superman's fights with Billy in general, on all but one of the occasions where Superman's magic weakness was mentioned in their fights, it was when Billy used magic lightning against him.

So Jurgens just switched off Superman's magic weakness because you say so?

We don't know. We don't know for sure how Jurgens views the magic weakness, whether he thought it was a factor in the Captain Thunder fight, or whether he thought it would've been more of a factor if Captain Thunder had used magic lightning.

No, but it's logical to think Thor's magic lightning is a significant factor in his mind, since he's specifically said Superman is stronger than Thor, but would lose to him on account of the magic weakness.

So Thor would win because of lightning because you say so?

We don't know whether magic lightning would be a significant factor in Thor beating Superman, as far as Jurgens is concerned, but it's a distinct possibility, especially if Jurgens has been influenced by stories like KINGDOM COME.

Because it doesn't specifically show or state that that's what happened. Plus, but we didn't see any lightning leaving the Wizard as he was turned to stone, and the Seven Deadly Enemies of Man weren't released until some time after the Wizard was incapacitated. If all the Wizard's power was sent to Billy as soon as he was turned to stone, the Sins should've be released immediately.

But we see Cap saying he consumed full power of wizard and it flowed back to Wizard. He also drained lightning from Adam which only Wizard can do.

Where is the confusion?

Billy's statement that he "consumed" the Wizard's power implies he had the ability to drain that power before he did so. And you appeared to be suggesting that the Wizard's lightning transferred to Billy as soon as the Wizard was turned to stone, but what we were shown on the page contradicts that.

Can you prove that, or are you just assuming that?

Because it has never been shown?

In other words, you don't know whether the lightning has gone back to the Wizard on other occasions or not, but you're assuming it hasn't.

And I'm curious. If you think Billy's stats were amped in Virtue and Vice, do you think his stats were also amped when he became the Wizard himself and got beaten up by Black Adam?
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Justice-Society-of-America/Issue-23?id=11711#13

Yes, it was straight up stated.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/7015/1641939-52_100x_more_powerful.jpg

Adam used a rock which could kill Billy to beat him.

You mean the rock Adam shattered with his bare hands?

But the only power we saw Billy consuming was that within Adam, Mary and Freddy. Maybe that's all he was talking about. If not, we can only speculate about when exactly he consumed power directly from the Wizard himself.

And how did he manage to do that?

We don't know, but I've already proposed the possibility that the gluttony demon might've had something to do with it.

We saw power flowing back to Wizard shuruku.

Yup. The power of Shazam is the Wizard's power -- the clue's in the name -- so it makes sense that it goes back to him when the Marvels aren't using it.

If Billy theoretically powering down without saying his magic word can be explained away as "Jeph Loeb shenanigans", then so can Billy powering down without a lightning bolt appearing. The odds of Captain Marvel being knocked out by being tossed into a sand dune seem rather low. And people who're genuinely regaining consciousness are usually disoriented at first. Billy didn't show any signs of that as he opened his eyes; he looked fully alert and aware of his situation, as if he'd merely been playing possum.

No, it doesn't when it was shown that to transform from Billy to Cap consciously he needed to say shazam.

There is no indication Cap was playing possum.

There's no direct confirmation that Billy was playing possum, but the way he looks and behaves when he opens is eyes is more consistent with someone who was playing possum, than someone who was genuinely regaining consciousness. Also, the idea that a top-tier like Captain Marvel would be knocked out by being thrown into a sand dune seems a bit far-fetched.

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2018, 07:03:56 PM »
Shuruku, based on direct comic book evidence what reason whatsoever did Superman have to claim Captain Marvel had ANY advantage whatsoever due to magick WITHOUT the context of being weakened by Kryptonite? Cite the EXACT instance Captain Marvel had EVER displayed this supposed advantage in physical combat against Superman prior to Superman/Batman #4.

There doesn't need to be any prior precedent for what Superman said in S/B #4 to be true under Loeb.

So you're fabricating a reality in your mind where JEPH LOEB believes that Captain Marvel is more formidable than Superman...despite Going out of his way to establish that Kryptonite was effecting Superman  was.. a coincidence..?

.. And you think anyone thinks you GENUINELY believe that, and aren't just trying to save face at this point..?

gokenadams

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2018, 07:19:33 PM »
lol shuruku's solo'ing you two idiots haha

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2018, 09:59:59 AM »
No, but this thread scenario fits the description of a fight characterised by much heavy punching.

It doesn't.

How so?


Because it's not a slugfest as per its definition here on ICT.
Quote


I'm asking you to explain if and why you think Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back. You needn't make any reference to Venom in order to answer those questions.

Already accepted your concession. Move along.

Why are you so reluctant to clarify your stance on whether Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back?


I'm not reluctant. I already gave you enough chance which you wasted.

Now I accepted your concession. Move along.
Quote


So, was Billy expecting the light to go out?

Why does that matter? Why would Cap be surprised by Superman punching him?

Because if Billy didn't expect the light to go out, it necessarily follows that he was surprised when that happened. So was Billy expecting the light to go out?


You're not answering my question. Why would Cap be surprised by Superman punching him?

Quote


The art was clear enough. We see that shortly after the fight, Billy is able to fly, stand up straight, and speak normally. He looks beat up, but he isn't presented as someone with near-fatal injuries.

So the artist made an error. Remember Superman vs pocket dimension kryptonian debate?

So you now accept that Quex-Ul was incorrectly coloured in the first panel of the second page here? Because you denied it at the time, and claimed the character shown in that panel was Superman.


No, I just brought your hypocrisy when you claim the art is superior to the dialog when it suits you.
Quote


Dialog trumps art.

Fire never said Billy was "almost killed"; you put those words in her mouth.


She said it's a wonder he was alive. Same thing.
Quote


Only because he saw that the solar spotlight was still operational, which meant he was in danger of losing Superman's body. He clearly intended to kill Billy before he noticed that.

Except no, he didn't kill anyone even under Eclipso's influence.

The fact that Eclipso didn't kill anyone in that issue doesn't prove that he didn't intend to. He clearly expressed the intent to do so, but was interrupted or deterred from doing so each time he had a character at his mercy.


Yet it didn't amount much when Lar Gand tried to kill Superman.

I wonder how you will spin that.
Quote


There's a big difference between surprising your opponent through your own power and/or skill, and surprising your opponent because their attention was diverted by an outside factor.

A surprise is a surprise.

A surprise may be a surprise, but the source of the surprise makes all the difference in the world in respect to whether a character deserves sole credit for a win, or whether they were assisted by an outside factor.


Yet, a surprise is a surprise. Cap surprised Superman blatantly. So did Surfer against Bill.

Superman didn't surprise Cap.
Quote


We don't know, and we should keep an open mind about things that weren't visible on-panel.

So he was outside the hold without no reason or explanation and we should accept it because you say so?

We should accept that Eclipso wasn't visible for four panels, and that we don't know where he was or what he did in those panels.


Yes we do. He was inside the hold until you can prove otherwise.

Your assumptions aren't proof.
Quote


The way you insist on using different words than the ones Fire herself used says otherwise.

Because I misremembered the line. Not that it matters.

If you misremembered what Fire said, that's fine, but why don't you stop misquoting her from now on?


It doesn't matter. Cap being alive itself was a wonder.
Quote


Where is it established that Eclipso didn't know how powerful Superman was?

Adventures of Superman annual 4. And in the same fight as well.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/IplX3DwLRTWghGTMDUX03YU1Cw0ZDTtEKXDeEBzK7KfX5GsWyN-RaqZNGxtP2eTKyuE6MhxoFYoT=s1600

Yet, even Eclipso didn't realize how powerful Superman was.

What exactly did Eclipso say or do to indicate that he didn't know how powerful Superman was?


He indicated he learned all of Superman's strength and weaknesses. Yet Superman powered through his weaknesses and beat him.
Quote


Three pages in? The fight was fifteen pages in total, counting only the pages where Eclipso-Supes and Billy were on-panel, and Billy's remark about being forced to "start getting rough" happened on the twelfth of those fifteen pages.

It was , "I tried to do this easy way".

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/6X6sVAEpXNYRtAKdwjH9BY0dkfNNklZ7id3xU1l64ZSUXRFulwap88y1ax1xxun9xe3a5zCcBpY=s1600

But I like how Billy was holding back entire fight without anything pointing towards it.

Yes, Billy said "I tried to do this the easy way" early on, and then much later in the fight said Eclipso-Supes was forcing him to start getting rough, suggesting he'd been holding back up to then.


Cap was holding back while doing it the hard way? Based on? Even when not holding back, he had little to no effect on Superman.

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And there's nothing outlandish about suggesting that a superhero was holding back in a fight, especially when fighting another hero. Holding back in fights is the default modus operandi for most superheroes, and as a relatively naïve, teenage boy, we shouldn't be surprised that Billy Batson is even less ruthless than the average, adult hero. Your line of argument here suggests you have little or no understanding of superhero psychology.


So did we see any different outcome when Cap started to play rough?

Or was Cap still holding back?

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If two guys are roughly equal in strength, but one is out for the kill while the other is holding back, it's only natural that the guy who was holding back would take more damage from each blow landed.

Tell that to Lar Gand who was going for the kill and Superman wasn't.

Superman may not have been going to kill, he wasn't necessarily holding back in terms of the force he was putting behind his attacks, or holding back as much Billy did in any event.


And here you are saying Superman was not holding back yet not going for the kill.

Where did you get that Superman wasn't holding back?

And by your logic, you don't need to intend to kill for going all out. Yet you argued that Silver Surfer wasn't going all out when he said so against Thor because he wasn't trying to kill Thor.

So many hoops to deny Superman straight up defeated Cap.
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Thor looked roughly equal in strength to the Hulk for most of that fight. The fight only turned in the Hulk's favour when Thor was distracting by an oncoming train, allowing the Hulk to hit him while his head was turned. The Hulk may well have been stronger by the end of the fight as well, but he definitely exploited that distraction.

So Hulk didn't look stronger than Thor to you, is that it?

The Hulk didn't look stronger for most of the fight. It was very back & forth, and we saw them locking up evenly at one point. The Hulk didn't gain the upper hand until he hit Thor while Thor's head was turned to look at the oncoming train. The Hulk may've been stronger by then, but as much as anything else, I got the impression Thor was tiring and being worn down more than the Hulk was.


So Hulk may be stronger than Thor based on a surprise attack but Superman and Cap were definitely equal because he punched Cap while his head wasn't even turned?

Erik Larsen flat out said he was showing Hulk stronger than Thor in Thor 385.

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Billy came across as naïve in his fight with Eclipso-Supes; he kept calling him "Superman" and trying to reason with him, like he didn't understand that Supes was actually possessed by a being who couldn't be talked down. Superman didn't attempt to talk Eclipso-Lar down at all. That may in part be because they were fighting on the Moon, and there was no atmosphere, but Superman didn't seem to have any misconception about the fact that Lar was possessed and that he couldn't be reasoned with (perhaps because he'd been possessed by Eclipso himself). Superman was also consciously fighting for his life from the start, since there was no atmosphere to breathe, and Eclipso knocked the stored oxygen out of his lungs with his first attack. So I think Supes gave it pretty close to his all from the beginning, because he knew he'd be dead otherwise, whereas Billy didn't behave like someone who knew he was in a life-or-death situation during his clash with Eclipso-Supes.

That's a lot of rationalization about what happened.

So Superman was going all out against Lar Gand and trying to kill him? Is that what you are trying to say?

Who looked better in these fights Shuruku? Captain Marvel or Superman?

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Action-Comics-1938/Annual-4?id=85432

Or Superman vs Lar Gand.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Eclipso-The-Darkness-Within/Issue-2?id=84390

You are essentially arguing against yourself when it comes to Superman vs Lar Gand.

I don't think Superman was trying to kill Lar, but you can use your full strength (or a large proportion of it) against an opponent without intending to kill them. And it helps if the opponent is stronger than you are, and moreso if you know that reasoning with them isn't an option, and that you have to take them down as quickly as possible in order to survive yourself. Superman definitely outperformed Billy in that story though, and I've openly acknowledged that for years:
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=3456.msg66535#msg66535
So if I'm getting this right Superman can go all out or use a large proportion of his strength while not going for the kill but Silver Surfer was definitely holding back because he wasn't trying to kill Thor.

Oh and Cap was definitely holding back but Superman wasn't. And Superman benefits from trying to kill Cap but Lar Gand did not.

So are you trying to say Captain Marvel was more powerful than Lar Gand? Because if Eclipsed Superman was going all out he took a lot more time to defeat Cap than a holding back Superman did to beat Lar Gand.

So much mental gymnastics.

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2018, 10:28:41 AM »
As for Loeb, didn't he say that the asteroid started to affect Superman some time after it travelled past Neptune? Well, Batman's statement doesn't strictly contradict that either. Also, while I do like to interpret a story in line with the author's intent, the author's stated intent can lose relevance in my mind, if what they say directly contradicts what's stated within the story itself. So if you want to take what Loeb said as being in direct conflict with what Batman said, then it's not at all a given to me that Loeb's statement should necessarily take precedence. If Loeb wanted Batman's statement to be taken as inaccurate, he should've debunked it within the story itself.

So the aide and the writer's supporting interview are wrong but Batman was right.

You are so full of yourself its not even funny.

I don't think any of them were lying. You're the one insisting that we should reject one of these statements as an outright falsehood, but I'm happy to accept them all (especially the two in the story) as being truthful in their own way.


So Superman was weakened and not weakened at the same time?

Because you're essentially saying just that.

On what basis was Batman right there?

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These statements were all equivocal; coulds, mights, and maybes. Batman's statement was the first definitive confirmation of when the K-rays began to enter Earth's atmosphere. Not only that, but S/B #6 was also the first issue where Superman was explicitly affected by the K-rays, and the first issue in which we saw the skies turning green, i.e. visual evidence of K-radiation within Earth's atmosphere.

And combined they over weigh Batman's statement which is made on a vacuum seeing Superman's sickness which was shown earlier.

You are wrong, dismissed.

The various equivocal statements, even stacked up together, cannot outweigh Batman's unequivocal statement, because they neither confirm nor deny what he said.


Yes, they do. Superman was already showing weakness when he was flying slowly and asked Power Girl if she was feeling anything in the air while wondering about kryptonite poisoning.

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The only offense Eclipso-Supes managed to muster while getting zapped by those Shazam bolts was the act of grabbing and choking a powerless human boy. If Billy could've summoned those bolts without powering down, Eclipso would've been screwed, as KC Superman would've been if the same thing applied in KINGDOM COME.

If Billy wasn't stupid you mean? Cap's full power couldn't bring Superman down five times straight up used.

Even in Kingdom Come, Superman ultimately overcame Billy.

KC Superman capitalised on Billy having to power up and down each time he summoned a Shazam bolt. If Billy could've remained in his superpowered form the whole time (like he can when he charges his fists with magic lightning), Superman would've been up shit creek without a paddle.


I would like to see where the lightning he summons to amp his strikes is equal to a full power Shazam bolt.

Superman tanked full power Shazam bolts without much issue. Lightning amped punches are nothing compared to that.
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But the Shazam bolt's purpose is to transmit the power to Billy, not to destroy things. And in practice, it hasn't been shown to have a great deal of destructive force.

It has been shown repeatedly so.

Like when Billy failed to KO Batman with a Shazam bolt?


Under Loeb he didn't show he could amp his punches with lightning. The majority of time the lightning bolts are far more powerful than lightning amped punches. In WWIII Black Adam incapacitated J'onn with one lightning bolt, Captain Marvel split Obsidian in half with a Shazam bolt who was overpowering him otherwise.

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The implication is in the way SBP reacted to Adam's lightning-charged punches. He was simulating how he might've been affected had the magic weakness applied to him.

Where he was simply crying in pain? How is that an implication of anything?

He was reacting as he might've done if the magic weakness applied to him. That was the point of that performance; to briefly fool Black Adam and the reader into thinking he did have that weakness.

Crying in pain is now an indication that Black Adam could've taken down SBP with a lightning charged punch?


You're one step away from writing fanfiction now.
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They floored each other, and it was only a brief exchange.

Superman was punched down once and floored Shazam down with one punch.

How is that effective?

Those punches (especially the first one) had a decent affect on Superman. An attack doesn't have to KO an opponent, or leave him dazed on the ground, to be considered effective.


Because Superman was caught off guard by Shazam's strength.

Later he wasn't even knocked down by the lightning punch.

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Lifting feats like that aren't the best way to gauge relative strength. Nu52 Billy is a different version of the character with a different powerset, so nothing should be assumed in regard to whether or not he's equal in strength to post-Crisis CM.

But until you have proof you can't say he is weaker.

And I didn't say he was weaker, I said I'm not sure he's as strong as post-Crisis Billy.


Meaning he is weaker without any proof whatsoever.
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Sure, but we know that because the magic weakness was mentioned in those instances, whereas it wasn't mentioned in the Captain Thunder fight. That doesn't confirm for sure that it wasn't a factor in Jurgens' mind, but it's odd that he wouldn't mention it if he intended it to be a factor. And if we look at Superman's fights with Billy in general, on all but one of the occasions where Superman's magic weakness was mentioned in their fights, it was when Billy used magic lightning against him.

So Jurgens just switched off Superman's magic weakness because you say so?

We don't know. We don't know for sure how Jurgens views the magic weakness, whether he thought it was a factor in the Captain Thunder fight, or whether he thought it would've been more of a factor if Captain Thunder had used magic lightning.


Yes, we do. Jurgens has written Superman for nearly 200 issues and you think he has never shown Superman and his magic weakness?

This is just pathetic now. Somehow Superman just lost his magic vulnerability when it suits Shuruku.
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No, but it's logical to think Thor's magic lightning is a significant factor in his mind, since he's specifically said Superman is stronger than Thor, but would lose to him on account of the magic weakness.

So Thor would win because of lightning because you say so?

We don't know whether magic lightning would be a significant factor in Thor beating Superman, as far as Jurgens is concerned, but it's a distinct possibility, especially if Jurgens has been influenced by stories like KINGDOM COME.


How's it a distinct possibility? Where did Jurgens show he was influenced by Kingdom Come?

Are you just saying nonsense just for the hope that I would accept it on your word?

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Because it doesn't specifically show or state that that's what happened. Plus, but we didn't see any lightning leaving the Wizard as he was turned to stone, and the Seven Deadly Enemies of Man weren't released until some time after the Wizard was incapacitated. If all the Wizard's power was sent to Billy as soon as he was turned to stone, the Sins should've be released immediately.

But we see Cap saying he consumed full power of wizard and it flowed back to Wizard. He also drained lightning from Adam which only Wizard can do.

Where is the confusion?

Billy's statement that he "consumed" the Wizard's power implies he had the ability to drain that power before he did so. And you appeared to be suggesting that the Wizard's lightning transferred to Billy as soon as the Wizard was turned to stone, but what we were shown on the page contradicts that.


Or he already had Wizard's power which he used to drain Adam's power.

Wait, are you suggesting he gained Wizard's power between punching Superman and draining Adam? Because that would be just stupid.

Even straight up dialog is not enough for you, is it?

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Can you prove that, or are you just assuming that?

Because it has never been shown?

In other words, you don't know whether the lightning has gone back to the Wizard on other occasions or not, but you're assuming it hasn't.


The fuck? We have seen Cap turning back into Billy countless times and there has been no instance of that power returning back to Shazam.

You're essentially asking me to disprove your theory.

Never change Shuruku.
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And I'm curious. If you think Billy's stats were amped in Virtue and Vice, do you think his stats were also amped when he became the Wizard himself and got beaten up by Black Adam?
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Justice-Society-of-America/Issue-23?id=11711#13

Yes, it was straight up stated.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/7015/1641939-52_100x_more_powerful.jpg

Adam used a rock which could kill Billy to beat him.

You mean the rock Adam shattered with his bare hands?


Yeah, a plot device. What does that has to do with anything?
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But the only power we saw Billy consuming was that within Adam, Mary and Freddy. Maybe that's all he was talking about. If not, we can only speculate about when exactly he consumed power directly from the Wizard himself.

And how did he manage to do that?

We don't know, but I've already proposed the possibility that the gluttony demon might've had something to do with it.


And here you go again with presenting your assumptions as a proof.

Cap had Wizard's power already at that point, he used it to strip Adam of his power and when he said Shazam the power returned to Wizard.

Have you ever heard of Occam's razor in your life?
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We saw power flowing back to Wizard shuruku.

Yup. The power of Shazam is the Wizard's power -- the clue's in the name -- so it makes sense that it goes back to him when the Marvels aren't using it.


Haha, seriously? So Shazam is powerless whenever Marvels use their power?

It was Wizard's own power which flowed back to him.
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If Billy theoretically powering down without saying his magic word can be explained away as "Jeph Loeb shenanigans", then so can Billy powering down without a lightning bolt appearing. The odds of Captain Marvel being knocked out by being tossed into a sand dune seem rather low. And people who're genuinely regaining consciousness are usually disoriented at first. Billy didn't show any signs of that as he opened his eyes; he looked fully alert and aware of his situation, as if he'd merely been playing possum.

No, it doesn't when it was shown that to transform from Billy to Cap consciously he needed to say shazam.

There is no indication Cap was playing possum.

There's no direct confirmation that Billy was playing possum, but the way he looks and behaves when he opens is eyes is more consistent with someone who was playing possum, than someone who was genuinely regaining consciousness. Also, the idea that a top-tier like Captain Marvel would be knocked out by being thrown into a sand dune seems a bit far-fetched.
Again using your assumptions as a proof.

But hey Cap was so weak that he needed to transform back into Billy to lure Batman so that he could beat Bruce because obviously straight up he had no chance at all.

So many mental gymnastics.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2018, 11:11:06 PM »
There doesn't need to be any prior precedent for what Superman said in S/B #4 to be true under Loeb.

So you're fabricating a reality in your mind where JEPH LOEB believes that Captain Marvel is more formidable than Superman...despite Going out of his way to establish that Kryptonite was effecting Superman  was.. a coincidence..?

.. And you think anyone thinks you GENUINELY believe that, and aren't just trying to save face at this point..?

Jeph Loeb doesn't need to believe Captain Marvel is more formidable than Superman in order to think Billy would have the advantage in a slugfest, on account of Clark's vulnerability to magic. Let's remember that Loeb also wrote Superman getting roughed up by werewolves, and there was no convenient green-K asteroid to use as an excuse on that occasion.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2018, 11:26:58 PM »
How so?

Because it's not a slugfest as per its definition here on ICT.

But the ICT definition isn't the only definition, as we've already discussed. Something wrong with your memory?

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/slugfest

slugfest in American

noun Informal

1. a fight or boxing match characterized by much heavy punching

Why are you so reluctant to clarify your stance on whether Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back?

I'm not reluctant. I already gave you enough chance which you wasted.

Now I accepted your concession. Move along.

I'd have an easier time believing you aren't reluctant to explain your stance (on whether Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back) if you actually went ahead and explained it, rather than continually refusing to do so.

Because if Billy didn't expect the light to go out, it necessarily follows that he was surprised when that happened. So was Billy expecting the light to go out?

You're not answering my question. Why would Cap be surprised by Superman punching him?

Because his attention may have been elsewhere at the time. Was Billy expecting the light to go out?

So you now accept that Quex-Ul was incorrectly coloured in the first panel of the second page here? Because you denied it at the time, and claimed the character shown in that panel was Superman.

No, I just brought your hypocrisy when you claim the art is superior to the dialog when it suits you.

I never said art is superior to dialogue. You just can't stop putting words in people's mouthes in this thread.

Fire never said Billy was "almost killed"; you put those words in her mouth.

She said it's a wonder he was alive. Same thing.

If you truly believed it meant the same thing, you wouldn't feel the need to keep changing the words Fire used.

The fact that Eclipso didn't kill anyone in that issue doesn't prove that he didn't intend to. He clearly expressed the intent to do so, but was interrupted or deterred from doing so each time he had a character at his mercy.

Yet it didn't amount much when Lar Gand tried to kill Superman.

I wonder how you will spin that.

Now you're jumping to a different point, because you're losing the one we're discussing. Eclipso repeatedly expressed the intent to kill in that issue, but kept getting interrupted each time he had someone at his mercy.

==================================================

Eclipso speaking to Booster Gold: "Normally I would possess you, but I promised Superman I would kill someone. Goodbye, Booster." (Fire intervenes just as Eclipso is about to kill Booster.)
https://imgur.com/oM95Tyj.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Fire: "Pathetic wastes! You all deserve to die."
https://imgur.com/03NwCD4.jpg

Eclipso is about kill Fire when he's interrupted by Captain Marvel.
https://imgur.com/uHEhPA4.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Captain Marvel: "You really don't understand, do you!? Superman no longer exists! And soon, neither will you!"
https://imgur.com/CAyKsXG.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Captain Marvel: "DIE, MARVEL!!!!"
https://imgur.com/8wdiSBs.jpg

Eclipso speaking to Captain Marvel: "You destroyed the little fishing village but you missed the big fish! That mistake will cost you your li-- eh? Damn, that cursed light still works! Killing you isn't worth losing this body! Consider yourself lucky, Marvel."
https://imgur.com/tpDneFq.jpg

==================================================

Eclipso was out to kill Billy, and you know it.

A surprise may be a surprise, but the source of the surprise makes all the difference in the world in respect to whether a character deserves sole credit for a win, or whether they were assisted by an outside factor.

Yet, a surprise is a surprise. Cap surprised Superman blatantly. So did Surfer against Bill.

Superman didn't surprise Cap.

Do you recognise the difference between a character surprising an opponent with their own skill/power, and a character taking advantage of an outside distraction?

We should accept that Eclipso wasn't visible for four panels, and that we don't know where he was or what he did in those panels.

Yes we do. He was inside the hold until you can prove otherwise.

Your assumptions aren't proof.

Says the man who's making assumptions about where Eclipso was in panels where Eclipso wasn't visible.

If you misremembered what Fire said, that's fine, but why don't you stop misquoting her from now on?

It doesn't matter. Cap being alive itself was a wonder.

In Fire's opinion, sure.

What exactly did Eclipso say or do to indicate that he didn't know how powerful Superman was?

He indicated he learned all of Superman's strength and weaknesses. Yet Superman powered through his weaknesses and beat him.

Superman beating Eclipso doesn't mean Eclipso was wrong about his power level. There are other reasons why someone can win a fight other than raw power, and if you think raw power is all Superman has going for him, you clearly don't think much of the character.

Come to think of it, it makes me wonder why you believe a powerless Superman is capable of beating the Green Goblin in a prep war. You haven't replied to that thread in a week, BTW. What's up with that?
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg367810#msg367810

Yes, Billy said "I tried to do this the easy way" early on, and then much later in the fight said Eclipso-Supes was forcing him to start getting rough, suggesting he'd been holding back up to then.

Cap was holding back while doing it the hard way? Based on?

Based on him saying that he was being forced to start getting rough much later in the fight.

And there's nothing outlandish about suggesting that a superhero was holding back in a fight, especially when fighting another hero. Holding back in fights is the default modus operandi for most superheroes, and as a relatively naïve, teenage boy, we shouldn't be surprised that Billy Batson is even less ruthless than the average, adult hero. Your line of argument here suggests you have little or no understanding of superhero psychology.

So did we see any different outcome when Cap started to play rough?

Or was Cap still holding back?

Perhaps he was. A character starting to "get rough" doesn't necessarily mean they're going all out. It just means they're stepping it up a gear. Did Billy step it up to his highest gear there? I don't know. He only landed two more punches on-panel, at any rate.

Superman may not have been going to kill, he wasn't necessarily holding back in terms of the force he was putting behind his attacks, or holding back as much Billy did in any event.

And here you are saying Superman was not holding back yet not going for the kill.

Where did you get that Superman wasn't holding back?

He was fighting for his life, and didn't have much time. Did you miss that part of the story?

And by your logic, you don't need to intend to kill for going all out. Yet you argued that Silver Surfer wasn't going all out when he said so against Thor because he wasn't trying to kill Thor.

You're misrepresenting my argument, as you so often do. Here's a direct quote of my reasoning on whether the Surfer went all-out against Thor or not in Blood & Thunder:

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=17681.msg353465#msg353465

Shuruku: "I don't know for a fact whether he went all out or not (and neither do you). But I don't think he went all out, for the aforementioned reasons:

1) He didn't say he was going all out.
2) I don't believe his motivation was sufficient to make him go all out.
3) He was likely already hurt by that point."


The Hulk didn't look stronger for most of the fight. It was very back & forth, and we saw them locking up evenly at one point. The Hulk didn't gain the upper hand until he hit Thor while Thor's head was turned to look at the oncoming train. The Hulk may've been stronger by then, but as much as anything else, I got the impression Thor was tiring and being worn down more than the Hulk was.

So Hulk may be stronger than Thor based on a surprise attack but Superman and Cap were definitely equal because he punched Cap while his head wasn't even turned?

I never said Superman and Captain Marvel were definitely equal.

Erik Larsen flat out said he was showing Hulk stronger than Thor in Thor 385.

But Erik was only the penciller in THOR #385. Jim Shooter and Stan Lee are the ones who wrote it. Erik did get to write the 2001 Hulk annual though, and the Hulk's strength edge was much clearer in that.

I don't think Superman was trying to kill Lar, but you can use your full strength (or a large proportion of it) against an opponent without intending to kill them. And it helps if the opponent is stronger than you are, and moreso if you know that reasoning with them isn't an option, and that you have to take them down as quickly as possible in order to survive yourself. Superman definitely outperformed Billy in that story though, and I've openly acknowledged that for years:
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=3456.msg66535#msg66535

So if I'm getting this right Superman can go all out or use a large proportion of his strength while not going for the kill but Silver Surfer was definitely holding back because he wasn't trying to kill Thor.

You're getting it wrong, because I never said the Surfer definitely held back toward the end of his battle with Thor in Blood & Thunder.

Oh and Cap was definitely holding back but Superman wasn't. And Superman benefits from trying to kill Cap but Lar Gand did not.

At no point did I claim Eclipso didn't fight as hard against Superman as he did against Captain Marvel. He was likely fighting equally hard in both cases.

So are you trying to say Captain Marvel was more powerful than Lar Gand? Because if Eclipsed Superman was going all out he took a lot more time to defeat Cap than a holding back Superman did to beat Lar Gand.

I believe Lar was supposed to be more powerful than either Superman or Captain Marvel, based on what Eclipso said. But Superman had to defeat Eclipso-Lar as quickly as possible, since he was in danger of asphyxiating at any moment. Eclipso-Supes wanted to kill Billy, but he didn't need to end the fight in an almighty hurry the way Superman did.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 11:47:56 PM by The Shuruku Demon »