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Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2018, 03:30:27 AM »
This isn't a slugfest if you are using energy amped punches.

It's my thread, and the thread-starter gets to choose whatever stipulations they want.


But it wouldn't be a slugfest then. It's your thread but not your terminology.

Quote


You made the implicit assertion that CM attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back.
https://imgur.com/uHEhPA4.jpg

I then posted the Supes/Venom scan as evidence that a character attacking from behind doesn't necessarily mean they weren't holding back.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/bhAeVnvz9ayGKNOpS5T8sipxhvgK4cJlhBdoB89pcr0o-9BYHCKBh1pw2_19A-crlNS2Gq3kTV1x=s1600

You've made no attempt to refute this point, which suggests you accept it. And if you do accept that point, then it falls to you to explain why CM attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back in that specific instance. You've yet to provide a rationale for this, and if you can't or won't provide one, you're effectively conceding that there is no rationale behind that position.

Red herring is a red herring. Superman vs Venom has nothing to do with Superman vs Captain Marvel.

If you accept that Superman could've been holding back against Venom, despite attacking him from behind, that debunks the premise that a character attacking from behind must not be holding back as a general rule. And if it isn't true as a general rule, then it falls to you to explain why it's true in the specific instance of the Eclipso-Superman/CM fight.


Like I said one more red herring and I accept your concession that Captain Marvel was not holding back when he cheapshotted Superman.

Run along now.
Quote


Abhi: "But yeah, if Superman was actually trying to kill Cap, he didn't show it until the end."

https://i.imgur.com/ySfazA8.jpg[/img]

Shuruku: Captain Marvel was surprised by Eclipsed Superman and that's why he lost.

https://i.imgur.com/tpDneFq.jpg

Forgets to post the previous page where Cap had Superman in a chokehold.

I uploaded the whole fight to an imgur album and posted a link, both in this thread and the other one. So no, I didn't leave out any pages.


Uploading scans doesn't mean you have actually understood them.

There was no way Captain Marvel could get surprised by Superman in that position and at that point of a fight.

You're just full of excuses now.
Quote


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Dqt9JbC8z576aKYI_AoeTwaAExIg9nZKYSp_9PRcQcgl46AE9iRsEQr37RA_gdLZhE8t_ymHex8=s1600


Eclipso even taunts Cap on the last panel. But no, Cap only lost because of the surprise.

Both characters appeared to get distracted on that page. Are you denying that?


Yes, there was no surprise in that page.
Quote


And are you going to address the scan I posted of Eclipso yelling "DIE, MARVEL!!!!"...?


Just words. Like Fire saying Captain Marvel being alive is a surprise are mere words.
Quote


You're putting words in my mouth. I'd never have said a character can't be surprised in a fight, since that doesn't reflect what I believe now, or what I've ever believed.

That's what you said.

I'm flatly disputing that I said that. So post the quote, so we can establish which of us telling the truth here.


That was before the crash of this website.

You've said that Surfer got a decisive win over BRB even though he used the board to hit BRB from behind.
Quote


Now you are changing your stance once again when it suits you. How does Surfer not surprise Bill while Superman surprised Cap?

Surfer did surprise Bill, but he did it exclusively with his own abilities. Eclipso-Supes took advantage of an outside distraction.


What outside distraction? Cap had him in a headlock, Superman broke free, taunted him and punched him in the face AFTER the device broke down.

How is that being surprised by a distraction? Cap was watching the device continously. He didn't just looked on it to be surprised.
Quote


No, evidence like this scan:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/QTR3-GMx1T7T0PBl-Cm5claG51wQjC7baOn6oFhf4Lh2n5C7B0Oyr7hlrxxXXG14pvk89cXrZuo3=s1600

That doesn't supports Cap being able to beat Superman.

It supports Billy winning a slugfest, since a slugfest is a toe-to-toe exchange of punches. No "castling" or blindsiding allowed.


The casting involved Superman throwing Cap so hard he was koed by a redirected kick from Batman. And Superman was weakened to begin with.

How's that for losing?
Quote


Yes, there is. Fire saying it's a wonder Billy wasn't killed by the beating he took is akin to her saying she's amazed that he could survive that. It doesn't mean his injuries were near-fatal. She isn't a doctor, and didn't perform a medical exam on Billy as far as we know.

So the writer just put there for you to believe Fire was bullshitting and can't be trusted because obviously both her and Bloodwynd were lying. Cap was in top shape.

It's amazing how you can come to the exact opposite conclusion by bullshitting the way you do.

The writer put that dialogue there to convey the idea that Billy took a beating that would've killed almost anyone else.


That was never said. It was said that Cap was lucky to be alive though. Never said anything about anyone else.

Another excuse. Let's see how far you can go.
Quote


There isn't a scan specifically stating that. Can you post a scan specifically stating that the reason Eclipso-Supes beat CM is because he was stronger?

Yes, it's specifically stated that he was the most powerful hero on planet. Was it excluding Captain Marvel who he beat to near death as stated in the very same comic?

Superman being more powerful than Billy doesn't necessarily make him stronger. And Eclipso-Supes being more powerful than Billy isn't necessarily the primary reason he won that fight... after all, Lar Gand was stated to be more powerful than Superman, but Eclipso still lost to Superman using his body. There's more to who wins a fight than who's the strongest.


Yes, it does make him stronger.

Lar Gand was beaten when Superman pushed himself beyond his limitations. Dynamic strength you know.

Bottom line is Cap was almost killed against Superman and Superman then went on to fight and defeat LEGION and JLE together.

There was no question about who was stronger between Superman and Captain Marvel.
Quote


So post a scan specifically saying Billy lost to Eclipso-Supes because Superman was stronger.
Any scan of Cap losing due to a surprise in a pages long fight that you have?

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2018, 03:35:57 AM »
Loeb is the one who scripted Batman saying that the K-rays started to enter the atmosphere in S/B #6. Why did Loeb have Batman say that, if he thought it wasn't true?

The same way Fire saying Captain Marvel wasn't beaten to death wasn't actually her saying that.

So you're saying those two statements served the same purpose in the story... but what was that purpose?


Captain Marvel was almost killed.

Batman was incorrect about his position about kryptonite.
Quote


Where did Batman get the information about kryptonite radiation piercing the atmosphere?

I don't know.


So he must have been wrong, no?
Quote


Billy being strong or weak doesn't alter my fundamental point, which is that he had the advantage.

And yet lost badly. This isn't about if Cap having an advantage over Superman by magic thread is it?

The initial scan I posted specifically mentioned magic. So yeah, Superman's magic weakness was part & parcel of this discussion from the beginning.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/QTR3-GMx1T7T0PBl-Cm5claG51wQjC7baOn6oFhf4Lh2n5C7B0Oyr7hlrxxXXG14pvk89cXrZuo3=s1600


Not under all writers though. Superman almost beat Cap to death already in a slugfest.
Quote


Cap's feats are still valid, even if they were scripted by other writers. It's true that they may not be in line with how Loeb would write things, but then we don't know the specifics of how Superman "blindsided" CM in Loeb's story, since it happened off-panel. That means we don't know if Supes was able to one-shot CM, as CM did to him in Virtue and Vice, or two-shot CM, as CM did to him in Crisis Times Five. Maybe Supes had to hit CM three, five or ten times to achieve the same result. We don't know. What we do know is that Loeb scripted Supes saying CM had the advantage toe-to-toe.

Captain Marvel was amped by Wizard Shazam's power in virtue and vice. Hence why he was able to manhandle and drain Black Adam. And when he was forced to say Shazam  Wizard's power flowed back into him and he was able to change himself from stone

Hold on, when did you decide Billy was amped in that scene? Because in January of this year, you cited that instance of Billy "manhandling" Adam as if it were representative of his normal strength.
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=17391.msg347890#msg347890


I reread the story and it was made clear Cap was amped.
Quote


Under Morrison it was luck and magic combined that Superman was completely caught off guard.

Also I liked how blindsided means Superman punched Cap a dozen times. An explicitly less formidable Superman knocked out Captain Marvel in two punches in JSA 34 just fine. So taking Superman's feats account it was just one punch. Like what blindsided means.

And Cap was still unable to beat Superman. Superman just tossed him so hard after palming his punch that a kick from Batman knocked his ass out.

What makes you think Batman's kick knocked Billy out?
What makes you think he just reverted to Billy without any lightning strikes shown?

Panthergod

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2018, 02:11:21 PM »
Cap failed to KO Superman with three red strikes. Ecilpso Supra punched Cap senseless cross the North American Continent. There is no argument based in comic canon that Cap can match Superman post OWAW.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2018, 07:30:29 PM »
It's my thread, and the thread-starter gets to choose whatever stipulations they want.

But it wouldn't be a slugfest then. It's your thread but not your terminology.

It's a word in the English language, which fits the scenario in this thread.

If you accept that Superman could've been holding back against Venom, despite attacking him from behind, that debunks the premise that a character attacking from behind must not be holding back as a general rule. And if it isn't true as a general rule, then it falls to you to explain why it's true in the specific instance of the Eclipso-Superman/CM fight.

Like I said one more red herring and I accept your concession that Captain Marvel was not holding back when he cheapshotted Superman.

Run along now.

Do you believe that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Superman from behind proves he wasn't holding back?

Both characters appeared to get distracted on that page. Are you denying that?

Yes, there was no surprise in that page.

So Billy was expecting the solar lamp to suddenly go out?

And are you going to address the scan I posted of Eclipso yelling "DIE, MARVEL!!!!"...?

Just words. Like Fire saying Captain Marvel being alive is a surprise are mere words.

Why did Eclipso scream "DIE, MARVEL!!!!" in your mind?

I'm flatly disputing that I said that. So post the quote, so we can establish which of us telling the truth here.

That was before the crash of this website.

The crash of 2014? Why do you need to go that far back? We discussed the Surfer using his board to strike Beta Ray Bill from behind in 2016, and nowhere in that thread did I say a character can't be surprised in a fight. What I did say is that "Surfer beat Bill using nothing more than his own innate power and skill. Nothing he did is anything he couldn't easily repeat under battleboard conditions." And I stand by that.
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=9379.msg197550#msg197550

Surfer did surprise Bill, but he did it exclusively with his own abilities. Eclipso-Supes took advantage of an outside distraction.

What outside distraction? Cap had him in a headlock, Superman broke free, taunted him and punched him in the face AFTER the device broke down.

How is that being surprised by a distraction? Cap was watching the device continously. He didn't just looked on it to be surprised.

It meant his focus wasn't entirely on his opponent.

It supports Billy winning a slugfest, since a slugfest is a toe-to-toe exchange of punches. No "castling" or blindsiding allowed.

The casting involved Superman throwing Cap so hard he was koed by a redirected kick from Batman. And Superman was weakened to begin with.

How's that for losing?

Supes can't count on Batman saving his bacon in a one-on-one slugfest.

The writer put that dialogue there to convey the idea that Billy took a beating that would've killed almost anyone else.

That was never said. It was said that Cap was lucky to be alive though. Never said anything about anyone else.

Another excuse. Let's see how far you can go.

Nobody said Cap was "lucky to be alive". Why don't you use Fire's exact words, instead of changing them?

Superman being more powerful than Billy doesn't necessarily make him stronger. And Eclipso-Supes being more powerful than Billy isn't necessarily the primary reason he won that fight... after all, Lar Gand was stated to be more powerful than Superman, but Eclipso still lost to Superman using his body. There's more to who wins a fight than who's the strongest.

Yes, it does make him stronger.

Lar Gand was beaten when Superman pushed himself beyond his limitations. Dynamic strength you know.

What makes you think Superman was supposed to have dynamic strength in that story?

Bottom line is Cap was almost killed against Superman and Superman then went on to fight and defeat LEGION and JLE together.

There was no question about who was stronger between Superman and Captain Marvel.

There may not be a question in your mind, but the story didn't state who was stronger.

So post a scan specifically saying Billy lost to Eclipso-Supes because Superman was stronger.

Any scan of Cap losing due to a surprise in a pages long fight that you have?

There was no statement that Cap lost due to a surprise. Was there a statement that Cap lost because Superman was stronger? If there was, post the page, please.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2018, 07:37:25 PM »
So you're saying those two statements served the same purpose in the story... but what was that purpose?

Captain Marvel was almost killed.

Batman was incorrect about his position about kryptonite.

I know you think Batman was wrong about the K-rays starting to enter the atmosphere in S/B #6, but you haven't explained what story purpose his allegedly incorrect statement served in that scene.

I don't know.

So he must have been wrong, no?

No.

The initial scan I posted specifically mentioned magic. So yeah, Superman's magic weakness was part & parcel of this discussion from the beginning.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/QTR3-GMx1T7T0PBl-Cm5claG51wQjC7baOn6oFhf4Lh2n5C7B0Oyr7hlrxxXXG14pvk89cXrZuo3=s1600

Not under all writers though. Superman almost beat Cap to death already in a slugfest.

The magic weakness didn't obviously play a part in the Eclipso fight, but that weakness was played up more and more as time went on during the post-Crisis years. Waid's KINGDOM COME mini in 1996 may've been a turning point. Although that story was an Elseworld, I think Billy's ability to exploit Superman's magic weakness there was an influence on later writers.

Hold on, when did you decide Billy was amped in that scene? Because in January of this year, you cited that instance of Billy "manhandling" Adam as if it were representative of his normal strength.
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=17391.msg347890#msg347890

I reread the story and it was made clear Cap was amped.

I see indications that Billy was amped after absorbing magic lightning from Adam, Mary and Freddy in Virtue and Vice. What evidence is there that he was stronger than normal before that?

What makes you think Batman's kick knocked Billy out?

What makes you think he just reverted to Billy without any lightning strikes shown?

I didn't claim "he just reverted to Billy without any lightning strikes shown". You did claim Batman's kick knocked out him out though, so explain why you think that.

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2018, 12:25:31 AM »
It's my thread, and the thread-starter gets to choose whatever stipulations they want.

But it wouldn't be a slugfest then. It's your thread but not your terminology.

It's a word in the English language, which fits the scenario in this thread.


No, it doesn't. Courtesy of Xerxes.

Quote
What is a Slugfest?
Characters hit each other until they go down, relying only on strength and durability.


Quote


If you accept that Superman could've been holding back against Venom, despite attacking him from behind, that debunks the premise that a character attacking from behind must not be holding back as a general rule. And if it isn't true as a general rule, then it falls to you to explain why it's true in the specific instance of the Eclipso-Superman/CM fight.

Like I said one more red herring and I accept your concession that Captain Marvel was not holding back when he cheapshotted Superman.

Run along now.

Do you believe that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Superman from behind proves he wasn't holding back?


I already accepted your concession about that.
Quote


Both characters appeared to get distracted on that page. Are you denying that?

Yes, there was no surprise in that page.

So Billy was expecting the solar lamp to suddenly go out?


He was continously watching it. Didn't get surprised.
Quote


And are you going to address the scan I posted of Eclipso yelling "DIE, MARVEL!!!!"...?

Just words. Like Fire saying Captain Marvel being alive is a surprise are mere words.

Why did Eclipso scream "DIE, MARVEL!!!!" in your mind?


What did Fire saying Cap was lucky to be alive means in your mind?
Quote


I'm flatly disputing that I said that. So post the quote, so we can establish which of us telling the truth here.

That was before the crash of this website.

The crash of 2014? Why do you need to go that far back? We discussed the Surfer using his board to strike Beta Ray Bill from behind in 2016, and nowhere in that thread did I say a character can't be surprised in a fight. What I did say is that "Surfer beat Bill using nothing more than his own innate power and skill. Nothing he did is anything he couldn't easily repeat under battleboard conditions." And I stand by that.
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=9379.msg197550#msg197550


That was done at that time as well.

Superman broke free from Cap on his own power and skill.

And punched him in the face. How's that a surprise in any world?
Quote


Surfer did surprise Bill, but he did it exclusively with his own abilities. Eclipso-Supes took advantage of an outside distraction.

What outside distraction? Cap had him in a headlock, Superman broke free, taunted him and punched him in the face AFTER the device broke down.

How is that being surprised by a distraction? Cap was watching the device continously. He didn't just looked on it to be surprised.

It meant his focus wasn't entirely on his opponent.


Yes, it was. Superman broke free, taunted Cap and punched him in the face.

Quote


It supports Billy winning a slugfest, since a slugfest is a toe-to-toe exchange of punches. No "castling" or blindsiding allowed.

The casting involved Superman throwing Cap so hard he was koed by a redirected kick from Batman. And Superman was weakened to begin with.

How's that for losing?

Supes can't count on Batman saving his bacon in a one-on-one slugfest.


You're right, Batman clearly hits harder with a kick than Superman does.

Batman only redirected Cap, he was koed by the force of the throw.
Quote


The writer put that dialogue there to convey the idea that Billy took a beating that would've killed almost anyone else.

That was never said. It was said that Cap was lucky to be alive though. Never said anything about anyone else.

Another excuse. Let's see how far you can go.

Nobody said Cap was "lucky to be alive". Why don't you use Fire's exact words, instead of changing them?


Yes, they did.



"Considering the beating he took, it's a wonder he is alive".

Change luck to wonder.
Quote


Superman being more powerful than Billy doesn't necessarily make him stronger. And Eclipso-Supes being more powerful than Billy isn't necessarily the primary reason he won that fight... after all, Lar Gand was stated to be more powerful than Superman, but Eclipso still lost to Superman using his body. There's more to who wins a fight than who's the strongest.

Yes, it does make him stronger.

Lar Gand was beaten when Superman pushed himself beyond his limitations. Dynamic strength you know.

What makes you think Superman was supposed to have dynamic strength in that story?


He questioned himself as he wasn't dead yet and said he must be tougher than he thought about himself.

Quote


Bottom line is Cap was almost killed against Superman and Superman then went on to fight and defeat LEGION and JLE together.

There was no question about who was stronger between Superman and Captain Marvel.

There may not be a question in your mind, but the story didn't state who was stronger.


Captain Marvel's face did though which Superman beat to a pulp. And almost killed him.

Just like Hulk did to Thor in Thor 385.
Quote


So post a scan specifically saying Billy lost to Eclipso-Supes because Superman was stronger.

Any scan of Cap losing due to a surprise in a pages long fight that you have?

There was no statement that Cap lost due to a surprise. Was there a statement that Cap lost because Superman was stronger? If there was, post the page, please.
Why would that need to be said? Captain Marvel was stated to be almost killed while Superman was just going around beating the crap out of everyone.

What do you think that means?

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2018, 12:34:51 AM »
So you're saying those two statements served the same purpose in the story... but what was that purpose?

Captain Marvel was almost killed.

Batman was incorrect about his position about kryptonite.

I know you think Batman was wrong about the K-rays starting to enter the atmosphere in S/B #6, but you haven't explained what story purpose his allegedly incorrect statement served in that scene.


It's Jeph Loeb. He does this type of thing more often than you think.

There was no in story purpose of that statement. Superman was already weakened.
Quote


I don't know.

So he must have been wrong, no?

No.


Reason? And no "what's the purpose of it" bullshit.
Quote


The initial scan I posted specifically mentioned magic. So yeah, Superman's magic weakness was part & parcel of this discussion from the beginning.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/QTR3-GMx1T7T0PBl-Cm5claG51wQjC7baOn6oFhf4Lh2n5C7B0Oyr7hlrxxXXG14pvk89cXrZuo3=s1600

Not under all writers though. Superman almost beat Cap to death already in a slugfest.

The magic weakness didn't obviously play a part in the Eclipso fight, but that weakness was played up more and more as time went on during the post-Crisis years. Waid's KINGDOM COME mini in 1996 may've been a turning point. Although that story was an Elseworld, I think Billy's ability to exploit Superman's magic weakness there was an influence on later writers.


And yet it never allowed him to get an upper hand on Superman. Even Judd Winnick who specifically cited Superman's magic weakness had Superman tank five Shazam bolts straight up without any noticeable issue.

Neither did it help Captain Thunder who Superman said reminds him of Captain Marvel under Jurgens who also cites Superman's magic weakness.

Loeb also had Cap koed by a throw by Superman.
Quote


Hold on, when did you decide Billy was amped in that scene? Because in January of this year, you cited that instance of Billy "manhandling" Adam as if it were representative of his normal strength.
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=17391.msg347890#msg347890

I reread the story and it was made clear Cap was amped.

I see indications that Billy was amped after absorbing magic lightning from Adam, Mary and Freddy in Virtue and Vice. What evidence is there that he was stronger than normal before that?


That he was able to drain Adam in the first place. And when he says Shazam, Wizard's power flowed back in him and revived him. Not to mention throwing lightning like nothing against Wonder Woman which he was never able to do and neither could Adam or Mary and Freddy.


Read it again and envy controlling Cap flat out says he has absorbed all the power of the wizard and when he says Shazam, Shazam gets his power back.












And given Sorrow turned Shazam to stone BEFORE controlling Cap, the power of the Wizard must've been transferred to Cap before attacking Superman.


Quote


What makes you think Batman's kick knocked Billy out?

What makes you think he just reverted to Billy without any lightning strikes shown?

I didn't claim "he just reverted to Billy without any lightning strikes shown". You did claim Batman's kick knocked out him out though, so explain why you think that.
Because he reverted to Billy and was shown as koed.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 02:57:15 AM by Abhilegend »

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2018, 09:09:44 PM »
It's a word in the English language, which fits the scenario in this thread.

No, it doesn't. Courtesy of Xerxes.

Quote
What is a Slugfest?
Characters hit each other until they go down, relying only on strength and durability.

I'm obviously not adhering to that definition, and as the thread-starter, I don't have to.

Do you believe that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Superman from behind proves he wasn't holding back?

I already accepted your concession about that.

I understand that you're claiming I conceded something, but you're not answering my question: Do you believe that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Superman from behind proves he wasn't holding back? And if so, why?

So Billy was expecting the solar lamp to suddenly go out?

He was continously watching it. Didn't get surprised.

Was Billy expecting the light to go out though?

Why did Eclipso scream "DIE, MARVEL!!!!" in your mind?

What did Fire saying Cap was lucky to be alive means in your mind?

Fire believed it was a wonder that Billy was still alive after the beating he took.

Now answer the question I posed to you: Why did Eclipso yell "DIE, MARVEL!!!!", in your mind?

The crash of 2014? Why do you need to go that far back? We discussed the Surfer using his board to strike Beta Ray Bill from behind in 2016, and nowhere in that thread did I say a character can't be surprised in a fight. What I did say is that "Surfer beat Bill using nothing more than his own innate power and skill. Nothing he did is anything he couldn't easily repeat under battleboard conditions." And I stand by that.
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=9379.msg197550#msg197550

That was done at that time as well.

Superman broke free from Cap on his own power and skill.

And punched him in the face. How's that a surprise in any world?

Because Billy's attention was split between Eclipso-Supes and the solar spotlight, whereas Beta Ray Bill's attention was solely on the Surfer.

Supes can't count on Batman saving his bacon in a one-on-one slugfest.

You're right, Batman clearly hits harder with a kick than Superman does.

Batman only redirected Cap, he was koed by the force of the throw.

It was you who said Batman's kick KOed Billy in your previous post. Your exact words: "The casting involved Superman throwing Cap so hard he was koed by a redirected kick from Batman."

Nobody said Cap was "lucky to be alive". Why don't you use Fire's exact words, instead of changing them?

Yes, they did.



"Considering the beating he took, it's a wonder he is alive".

Change luck to wonder.

You're contradicting yourself here. First you insist somebody did say Billy was "lucky to be alive", then you admit that the word used was "wonder", not "luck" or "lucky". The words aren't synonymous either; try looking them up in a dictionary or thesaurus.

What makes you think Superman was supposed to have dynamic strength in that story?

He questioned himself as he wasn't dead yet and said he must be tougher than he thought about himself.

That doesn't prove his strength actually increased, or that Eclipso didn't sense the full measure of his power.

There may not be a question in your mind, but the story didn't state who was stronger.

Captain Marvel's face did though which Superman beat to a pulp. And almost killed him.

Just like Hulk did to Thor in Thor 385.

You're overstating the extent of Billy's injuries. He had a few welts on his face, and had to retire from active duty for a while, but nobody said he was "almost killed".
https://imgur.com/luiRVpN.jpg

There was no statement that Cap lost due to a surprise. Was there a statement that Cap lost because Superman was stronger? If there was, post the page, please.

Why would that need to be said?

You asked me to post a scan saying that Billy holding back was the reason he lost. I'm just testing whether you can meet the same standard of evidence you saw fit to impose on me.

Captain Marvel was stated to be almost killed while Superman was just going around beating the crap out of everyone.

What do you think that means?

Billy was never said to be "almost killed". As for the rest, that could mean a number of things, including the possibility that Billy and Superman were equal in strength, but that Superman used more of his strength because he was possessed by a villain.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2018, 09:21:55 PM »
I know you think Batman was wrong about the K-rays starting to enter the atmosphere in S/B #6, but you haven't explained what story purpose his allegedly incorrect statement served in that scene.

It's Jeph Loeb. He does this type of thing more often than you think.

There was no in story purpose of that statement. Superman was already weakened.

The fact that you can't account for the purpose of what Batman said in S/B #6 doesn't necessarily mean it had no purpose. The failure may simply lie with you and your refusal to entertain more than one possible interpretation of the story.

No.

Reason? And no "what's the purpose of it" bullshit.

The reason Batman wasn't necessarily wrong... is the fact that he could've been right. He usually is.

The magic weakness didn't obviously play a part in the Eclipso fight, but that weakness was played up more and more as time went on during the post-Crisis years. Waid's KINGDOM COME mini in 1996 may've been a turning point. Although that story was an Elseworld, I think Billy's ability to exploit Superman's magic weakness there was an influence on later writers.

And yet it never allowed him to get an upper hand on Superman. Even Judd Winnick who specifically cited Superman's magic weakness had Superman tank five Shazam bolts straight up without any noticeable issue.

Those bolts didn't take Eclipso-Supes out, but they did put him on the defensive. It suggests that if Billy used magic lightning-charged punches against Superman, it'd likely give him the advantage in an exchange of blows.

The scene Morrison wrote where Billy knocked Superman out with lightning-charged punches suggests the same thing, as does the scene Johns wrote where Black Adam used lightning-charged punches against Superboy Prime.

Neither did it help Captain Thunder who Superman said reminds him of Captain Marvel under Jurgens who also cites Superman's magic weakness.

Yeah, it wasn't obviously a factor as far as Jurgens was concerned. He's stated that Thor would beat Superman due to the magic weakness though. Maybe he thinks magic lightning is needed to exploit that weakness.

I see indications that Billy was amped after absorbing magic lightning from Adam, Mary and Freddy in Virtue and Vice. What evidence is there that he was stronger than normal before that?

That he was able to drain Adam in the first place. And when he says Shazam, Wizard's power flowed back in him and revived him. Not to mention throwing lightning like nothing against Wonder Woman which he was never able to do and neither could Adam or Mary and Freddy.


Read it again and envy controlling Cap flat out says he has absorbed all the power of the wizard and when he says Shazam, Shazam gets his power back.


https://s6.postimg.cc/c84hlwm1d/jla-jsa-060.jpg


https://s6.postimg.cc/919y2a9b5/jla-jsa-074.jpg


https://s6.postimg.cc/epg8t5y81/jla-jsa-075.jpg



And given Sorrow turned Shazam to stone BEFORE controlling Cap, the power of the Wizard must've been transferred to Cap before attacking Superman.

Billy said he'd consumed the Wizard's power, but it's not entirely clear what he meant by that. He may just have meant the power he absorbed from Adam, Mary and Freddy. Even if he meant that he'd consumed whatever power the Wizard normally retains for himself, it's not clear when he did that, since that statement was made pretty late in the story. His ability to absorb the lightning from the other Marvels may simply have been a by-product of his possession by the gluttony demon. That makes more sense to me than the idea that the Wizard being turned to stone by Johnny Sorrow would automatically send his power to Billy.

I didn't claim "he just reverted to Billy without any lightning strikes shown". You did claim Batman's kick knocked out him out though, so explain why you think that.

Because he reverted to Billy and was shown as koed.

How do you know Billy wasn't playing possum?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 09:49:31 PM by The Shuruku Demon »

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2018, 02:09:04 AM »
It's a word in the English language, which fits the scenario in this thread.

No, it doesn't. Courtesy of Xerxes.

Quote
What is a Slugfest?
Characters hit each other until they go down, relying only on strength and durability.

I'm obviously not adhering to that definition, and as the thread-starter, I don't have to.

You don't get to dictate and alter the meaning of a word just because you are OP.

Its not a slugfest.

Quote
Do you believe that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Superman from behind proves he wasn't holding back?

I already accepted your concession about that.

I understand that you're claiming I conceded something, but you're not answering my question: Do you believe that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Superman from behind proves he wasn't holding back? And if so, why?

I already accepted your concession when you tried your usual red herrings. No more discussion about it.

Quote
So Billy was expecting the solar lamp to suddenly go out?

He was continously watching it. Didn't get surprised.

Was Billy expecting the light to go out though?

Why would that surprise him?

Quote
Why did Eclipso scream "DIE, MARVEL!!!!" in your mind?

What did Fire saying Cap was lucky to be alive means in your mind?

Fire believed it was a wonder that Billy was still alive after the beating he took.

Meaning he was almost killed.

Quote
Now answer the question I posed to you: Why did Eclipso yell "DIE, MARVEL!!!!", in your mind?

Maybe because he was fighting savagely.

Quote
Quote
The crash of 2014? Why do you need to go that far back? We discussed the Surfer using his board to strike Beta Ray Bill from behind in 2016, and nowhere in that thread did I say a character can't be surprised in a fight. What I did say is that "Surfer beat Bill using nothing more than his own innate power and skill. Nothing he did is anything he couldn't easily repeat under battleboard conditions." And I stand by that.
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=9379.msg197550#msg197550

That was done at that time as well.

Superman broke free from Cap on his own power and skill.

And punched him in the face. How's that a surprise in any world?

Because Billy's attention was split between Eclipso-Supes and the solar spotlight, whereas Beta Ray Bill's attention was solely on the Surfer.

And Bill's attention was on surfer and not on his board. Yet its not a surprise by your admission.

Also Cap had Superman in his hold, no reason for him to get surprised if Superman breaks free.

Quote
Supes can't count on Batman saving his bacon in a one-on-one slugfest.

You're right, Batman clearly hits harder with a kick than Superman does.

Batman only redirected Cap, he was koed by the force of the throw.

It was you who said Batman's kick KOed Billy in your previous post. Your exact words: "The casting involved Superman throwing Cap so hard he was koed by a redirected kick from Batman."

Redirected kick.

The force of the throw koed Cap.

Quote
Nobody said Cap was "lucky to be alive". Why don't you use Fire's exact words, instead of changing them?

Yes, they did.



"Considering the beating he took, it's a wonder he is alive".

Change luck to wonder.

You're contradicting yourself here. First you insist somebody did say Billy was "lucky to be alive", then you admit that the word used was "wonder", not "luck" or "lucky". The words aren't synonymous either; try looking them up in a dictionary or thesaurus.

Right, its a wonder he is alive is so much better than "lucky to be alive".

Cap was almost killed. That's a fact.

Quote
What makes you think Superman was supposed to have dynamic strength in that story?

He questioned himself as he wasn't dead yet and said he must be tougher than he thought about himself.

That doesn't prove his strength actually increased, or that Eclipso didn't sense the full measure of his power.

Why not?

Quote
There may not be a question in your mind, but the story didn't state who was stronger.

Captain Marvel's face did though which Superman beat to a pulp. And almost killed him.

Just like Hulk did to Thor in Thor 385.

You're overstating the extent of Billy's injuries. He had a few welts on his face, and had to retire from active duty for a while, but nobody said he was "almost killed".
https://imgur.com/luiRVpN.jpg

Fire did. Cap himself said he didn't feel lucky enough to be alive.





Quote
There was no statement that Cap lost due to a surprise. Was there a statement that Cap lost because Superman was stronger? If there was, post the page, please.

Why would that need to be said?

You asked me to post a scan saying that Billy holding back was the reason he lost. I'm just testing whether you can meet the same standard of evidence you saw fit to impose on me.

So Cap got all his injuries and almost died with a surprise and not due to Superman's strength punching his face to a pulp?

You are just disingenuous at this point.

Quote
Captain Marvel was stated to be almost killed while Superman was just going around beating the crap out of everyone.

What do you think that means?

Billy was never said to be "almost killed". As for the rest, that could mean a number of things, including the possibility that Billy and Superman were equal in strength, but that Superman used more of his strength because he was possessed by a villain.

Right, Superman was the most powerful individual on Earth but somehow Cap was his equal in strength.

How did Superman beat Lar Gand in that situation?

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2018, 02:18:34 AM »
I know you think Batman was wrong about the K-rays starting to enter the atmosphere in S/B #6, but you haven't explained what story purpose his allegedly incorrect statement served in that scene.

It's Jeph Loeb. He does this type of thing more often than you think.

There was no in story purpose of that statement. Superman was already weakened.

The fact that you can't account for the purpose of what Batman said in S/B #6 doesn't necessarily mean it had no purpose. The failure may simply lie with you and your refusal to entertain more than one possible interpretation of the story.

Yes, it does. Superman and Luthor's statements match each other enough to invalidate Batman's statement.

Even Jeph Loeb said that in an interview.

Quote
No.

Reason? And no "what's the purpose of it" bullshit.

The reason Batman wasn't necessarily wrong... is the fact that he could've been right. He usually is.

So Luthor and Superman were wrong? Superman can't feel what's weakening him but Batman can?

Lo and behold, same bullshit.
Quote
The magic weakness didn't obviously play a part in the Eclipso fight, but that weakness was played up more and more as time went on during the post-Crisis years. Waid's KINGDOM COME mini in 1996 may've been a turning point. Although that story was an Elseworld, I think Billy's ability to exploit Superman's magic weakness there was an influence on later writers.

And yet it never allowed him to get an upper hand on Superman. Even Judd Winnick who specifically cited Superman's magic weakness had Superman tank five Shazam bolts straight up without any noticeable issue.

Those bolts didn't take Eclipso-Supes out, but they did put him on the defensive. It suggests that if Billy used magic lightning-charged punches against Superman, it'd likely give him the advantage in an exchange of blows.

Defensive? Superman almost killed Billy until Shazam saved him.

And a shazam lightning bolt is far more powerful than simple lightning punches.

Quote
The scene Morrison wrote where Billy knocked Superman out with lightning-charged punches suggests the same thing, as does the scene Johns wrote where Black Adam used lightning-charged punches against Superboy Prime.

Cap was stated to be lucky against Superman and it wasn't just magic amped punches.

Prime no sold Adam, under the same writer Superman was drawing blood against an amped SBP and so did Superboy.

Johns himself had new 52 Superman shrug off lightning amped punches from Shazam.

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/superman-vs-shazam-new-52-1.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/superman-vs-shazam-new-52-2.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/superman-vs-shazam-new-52-3.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/superman-vs-shazam-new-52-4.jpg

No comic supports what you say.

Quote
Neither did it help Captain Thunder who Superman said reminds him of Captain Marvel under Jurgens who also cites Superman's magic weakness.

Yeah, it wasn't obviously a factor as far as Jurgens was concerned. He's stated that Thor would beat Superman due to the magic weakness though. Maybe he thinks magic lightning is needed to exploit that weakness.

Right, the guy who thinks magic is a weakness for Superman didn't take magic in factor.

You are an idiot.

Quote
I see indications that Billy was amped after absorbing magic lightning from Adam, Mary and Freddy in Virtue and Vice. What evidence is there that he was stronger than normal before that?

That he was able to drain Adam in the first place. And when he says Shazam, Wizard's power flowed back in him and revived him. Not to mention throwing lightning like nothing against Wonder Woman which he was never able to do and neither could Adam or Mary and Freddy.


Read it again and envy controlling Cap flat out says he has absorbed all the power of the wizard and when he says Shazam, Shazam gets his power back.


https://s6.postimg.cc/c84hlwm1d/jla-jsa-060.jpg


https://s6.postimg.cc/919y2a9b5/jla-jsa-074.jpg


https://s6.postimg.cc/epg8t5y81/jla-jsa-075.jpg



And given Sorrow turned Shazam to stone BEFORE controlling Cap, the power of the Wizard must've been transferred to Cap before attacking Superman.

Billy said he'd consumed the Wizard's power, but it's not entirely clear what he meant by that. He may just have meant the power he absorbed from Adam, Mary and Freddy. Even if he meant that he'd consumed whatever power the Wizard normally retains for himself, it's not clear when he did that, since that statement was made pretty late in the story. His ability to absorb the lightning from the other Marvels may simply have been a by-product of his possession by the gluttony demon. That makes more sense to me than the idea that the Wizard being turned to stone by Johnny Sorrow would automatically send his power to Billy.

The why did the power flowed back to Wizard and he said "finally free".

Your fanfiction doesn't counts shuruku.

Quote
I didn't claim "he just reverted to Billy without any lightning strikes shown". You did claim Batman's kick knocked out him out though, so explain why you think that.

Because he reverted to Billy and was shown as koed.

How do you know Billy wasn't playing possum?
Because it was never shown or implied.

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2018, 08:59:11 PM »
I'm obviously not adhering to that definition, and as the thread-starter, I don't have to.

You don't get to dictate and alter the meaning of a word just because you are OP.

Its not a slugfest.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/slugfest

slugfest in British

noun informal

1. a boxing match in which opponents trade heavy blows

slugfest in American

noun Informal

1. a fight or boxing match characterized by much heavy punching

I understand that you're claiming I conceded something, but you're not answering my question: Do you believe that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Superman from behind proves he wasn't holding back? And if so, why?

I already accepted your concession when you tried your usual red herrings. No more discussion about it.

How is asking you to clarify/justify your position (on whether Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Superman from behind proves he wasn't holding back) a red herring?

Was Billy expecting the light to go out though?

Why would that surprise him?

Because a surprise is something unexpected. So was Billy expecting the light to go out?

Fire believed it was a wonder that Billy was still alive after the beating he took.

Meaning he was almost killed.

Not necessarily. We saw him after the fight, and he didn't look like a guy who had near-fatal injuries.

Now answer the question I posed to you: Why did Eclipso yell "DIE, MARVEL!!!!", in your mind?

Maybe because he was fighting savagely.

Doesn't it suggest he wanted to kill Billy?

Because Billy's attention was split between Eclipso-Supes and the solar spotlight, whereas Beta Ray Bill's attention was solely on the Surfer.

And Bill's attention was on surfer and not on his board. Yet its not a surprise by your admission.

The Surfer's board isn't an outside factor; it's a tool of the Surfer's, part of his power.

Also Cap had Superman in his hold, no reason for him to get surprised if Superman breaks free.

We don't know if Eclipso was still in the hold when the light went out. He wasn't visible for four panels.

It was you who said Batman's kick KOed Billy in your previous post. Your exact words: "The casting involved Superman throwing Cap so hard he was koed by a redirected kick from Batman."

Redirected kick.

The force of the throw koed Cap.

Even if that were true, Superman isn't allowed to use throws in this thread scenario, or in standard slugfests for that matter.

You're contradicting yourself here. First you insist somebody did say Billy was "lucky to be alive", then you admit that the word used was "wonder", not "luck" or "lucky". The words aren't synonymous either; try looking them up in a dictionary or thesaurus.

Right, its a wonder he is alive is so much better than "lucky to be alive".

Cap was almost killed. That's a fact.

If it makes little or no difference either way in your eyes, why don't you just stick to what Fire actually said, instead of changing her words to say Billy was "lucky to be alive" or "almost killed"?

That doesn't prove his strength actually increased, or that Eclipso didn't sense the full measure of his power.

Why not?

Because Superman could simply have been mistaken about how tough he was. And what Superman knew about his toughness has no obvious bearing on Eclipso's ability to sense his power level.

You're overstating the extent of Billy's injuries. He had a few welts on his face, and had to retire from active duty for a while, but nobody said he was "almost killed".
https://imgur.com/luiRVpN.jpg

Fire did. Cap himself said he didn't feel lucky enough to be alive.

https://i.imgur.com/tpDneFq.jpg

Fire never said Billy was "almost killed".

You asked me to post a scan saying that Billy holding back was the reason he lost. I'm just testing whether you can meet the same standard of evidence you saw fit to impose on me.

So Cap got all his injuries and almost died with a surprise and not due to Superman's strength punching his face to a pulp?

You are just disingenuous at this point.

Eclipso going for the kill while Billy held back is at least part of the reason Billy lost the way he did, in my view. I didn't say it was the only reason, but it should be acknowledged.

Billy was never said to be "almost killed". As for the rest, that could mean a number of things, including the possibility that Billy and Superman were equal in strength, but that Superman used more of his strength because he was possessed by a villain.

Right, Superman was the most powerful individual on Earth but somehow Cap was his equal in strength.

I didn't say Billy was Superman's equal in strength, but he could've been. They looked very close to equal in that fight.

How did Superman beat Lar Gand in that situation?

That's open to interpretation, but if we accept what Eclipso said about Lar Gand being more powerful than Superman, then Supes' victory likely wasn't a result of him being stronger than Lar. And before you say I'm contradicting myself on the power/strength thing, Superman and Lar had near-identical powersets, whereas Billy's powerset differed from theirs in a number of ways. Also, the reason Daxamites were billed as being stronger than Kryptonians at that time was to justify why Lar was capable of the kind of feats (including strength feats) performed by pre-Crisis Superboy. So it's pretty obvious Lar was supposed to be outright stronger than post-Crisis Supes back then.

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2018, 09:09:30 PM »
The fact that you can't account for the purpose of what Batman said in S/B #6 doesn't necessarily mean it had no purpose. The failure may simply lie with you and your refusal to entertain more than one possible interpretation of the story.

Yes, it does. Superman and Luthor's statements match each other enough to invalidate Batman's statement.

Even Jeph Loeb said that in an interview.

Why do you keep trying to attribute what Luthor's aide said to Luthor himself? To lend the statement more credibility?

The reason Batman wasn't necessarily wrong... is the fact that he could've been right. He usually is.

So Luthor and Superman were wrong? Superman can't feel what's weakening him but Batman can?

Lo and behold, same bullshit.

Luthor's aide never definitively stated when the K-rays would reach Earth, so there isn't strictly a contradiction between his statement and Batman's. As for Superman, which statement of his are you referring to?

Those bolts didn't take Eclipso-Supes out, but they did put him on the defensive. It suggests that if Billy used magic lightning-charged punches against Superman, it'd likely give him the advantage in an exchange of blows.

Defensive? Superman almost killed Billy until Shazam saved him.

Eclipso-Supes grabbed and could've killed the teenaged Billy Batson? Wow, stop the presses everyone, Abhi's just proven that Superman is stronger than a powerless human boy. What a gangsta.





And a shazam lightning bolt is far more powerful than simple lightning punches.

What makes you think that?

The scene Morrison wrote where Billy knocked Superman out with lightning-charged punches suggests the same thing, as does the scene Johns wrote where Black Adam used lightning-charged punches against Superboy Prime.

Cap was stated to be lucky against Superman and it wasn't just magic amped punches.

Yeah, Cap said he got lucky, but that doesn't mean charged punches like those wouldn't give him the edge in a slugfest.

Prime no sold Adam, under the same writer Superman was drawing blood against an amped SBP and so did Superboy.

Prime didn't actually have a magic weakness though. The implication of that scene is that if he did have that weakness, Black Adam could've taken him down.

Johns himself had new 52 Superman shrug off lightning amped punches from Shazam.

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/superman-vs-shazam-new-52-1.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/superman-vs-shazam-new-52-2.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/superman-vs-shazam-new-52-3.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/superman-vs-shazam-new-52-4.jpg

Those punches looked pretty effective to me. And I'm not sure Nu52 Shazam is as strong as post-Crisis Captain Marvel.

Yeah, it wasn't obviously a factor as far as Jurgens was concerned. He's stated that Thor would beat Superman due to the magic weakness though. Maybe he thinks magic lightning is needed to exploit that weakness.

Right, the guy who thinks magic is a weakness for Superman didn't take magic in factor.

He didn't acknowledge the weakness in the Captain Thunder fight though, did he? It's not unreasonable to think that the magic lightning makes a difference, in the minds of some writers at least.

Billy said he'd consumed the Wizard's power, but it's not entirely clear what he meant by that. He may just have meant the power he absorbed from Adam, Mary and Freddy. Even if he meant that he'd consumed whatever power the Wizard normally retains for himself, it's not clear when he did that, since that statement was made pretty late in the story. His ability to absorb the lightning from the other Marvels may simply have been a by-product of his possession by the gluttony demon. That makes more sense to me than the idea that the Wizard being turned to stone by Johnny Sorrow would automatically send his power to Billy.

The why did the power flowed back to Wizard and he said "finally free".

The lightning that returned to him from Billy restored him to flesh and blood, but that doesn't mean all his power flowed to Billy when he was turned to stone in the first place.

How do you know Billy wasn't playing possum?

Because it was never shown or implied.

The way Billy opened his eyes and smiled as soon as Batman was within range of his Shazam bolt can certainly be read as a hint that he was deliberately lying in wait for him. And why would Billy be in human form if he was unconscious? Doesn't he need to say "Shazam" to power down?



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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2018, 12:36:27 AM »
Energy blasts aren't punching.

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2018, 01:31:22 AM »
I'm obviously not adhering to that definition, and as the thread-starter, I don't have to.

You don't get to dictate and alter the meaning of a word just because you are OP.

Its not a slugfest.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/slugfest

slugfest in British

noun informal

1. a boxing match in which opponents trade heavy blows

slugfest in American

noun Informal

1. a fight or boxing match characterized by much heavy punching

Does it also mentions one combatant using magic lightning to amp his punches?

Quote
I understand that you're claiming I conceded something, but you're not answering my question: Do you believe that Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Superman from behind proves he wasn't holding back? And if so, why?

I already accepted your concession when you tried your usual red herrings. No more discussion about it.

How is asking you to clarify/justify your position (on whether Captain Marvel attacking Eclipso-Superman from behind proves he wasn't holding back) a red herring?

Nope, already accepted your concession. Use your "venom getting attacked by Superman" rhetoric on someone else.

Quote
Was Billy expecting the light to go out though?

Why would that surprise him?

Because a surprise is something unexpected. So was Billy expecting the light to go out?

Why would that surprise him?

Quote
Fire believed it was a wonder that Billy was still alive after the beating he took.

Meaning he was almost killed.

Not necessarily. We saw him after the fight, and he didn't look like a guy who had near-fatal injuries.

The art was not clear, the dialog was pretty clear. It wasn't shown that Cap had any injuries either but Bloodwynd made it clear as well.

Quote
Now answer the question I posed to you: Why did Eclipso yell "DIE, MARVEL!!!!", in your mind?

Maybe because he was fighting savagely.

Doesn't it suggest he wanted to kill Billy?

No. He spared him when he had the chance.

Quote
Because Billy's attention was split between Eclipso-Supes and the solar spotlight, whereas Beta Ray Bill's attention was solely on the Surfer.

And Bill's attention was on surfer and not on his board. Yet its not a surprise by your admission.

The Surfer's board isn't an outside factor; it's a tool of the Surfer's, part of his power.

Yet, it surprised Bill. Its a standard cheapshot.

Quote
Also Cap had Superman in his hold, no reason for him to get surprised if Superman breaks free.

We don't know if Eclipso was still in the hold when the light went out. He wasn't visible for four panels.

So he was just outside the hold without any reason whatsoever?

Quote
It was you who said Batman's kick KOed Billy in your previous post. Your exact words: "The casting involved Superman throwing Cap so hard he was koed by a redirected kick from Batman."

Redirected kick.

The force of the throw koed Cap.

Even if that were true, Superman isn't allowed to use throws in this thread scenario, or in standard slugfests for that matter.

Yet he can use that kind of force to KO Cap. He was weakened after all.

Quote
You're contradicting yourself here. First you insist somebody did say Billy was "lucky to be alive", then you admit that the word used was "wonder", not "luck" or "lucky". The words aren't synonymous either; try looking them up in a dictionary or thesaurus.

Right, its a wonder he is alive is so much better than "lucky to be alive".

Cap was almost killed. That's a fact.

If it makes little or no difference either way in your eyes, why don't you just stick to what Fire actually said, instead of changing her words to say Billy was "lucky to be alive" or "almost killed"?

It makes no difference at all.

Cap was almost killed. Deal with it.

Quote
That doesn't prove his strength actually increased, or that Eclipso didn't sense the full measure of his power.

Why not?

Because Superman could simply have been mistaken about how tough he was. And what Superman knew about his toughness has no obvious bearing on Eclipso's ability to sense his power level.

So both Eclipso and Superman didn't know how tough Superman is.

Sounds like dynamic strength to me.

Quote
You're overstating the extent of Billy's injuries. He had a few welts on his face, and had to retire from active duty for a while, but nobody said he was "almost killed".
https://imgur.com/luiRVpN.jpg

Fire did. Cap himself said he didn't feel lucky enough to be alive.

https://i.imgur.com/tpDneFq.jpg

Fire never said Billy was "almost killed".

She just said its a wonder he is alive. Pretty much the same thing.

Quote
You asked me to post a scan saying that Billy holding back was the reason he lost. I'm just testing whether you can meet the same standard of evidence you saw fit to impose on me.

So Cap got all his injuries and almost died with a surprise and not due to Superman's strength punching his face to a pulp?

You are just disingenuous at this point.

Eclipso going for the kill while Billy held back is at least part of the reason Billy lost the way he did, in my view. I didn't say it was the only reason, but it should be acknowledged.

So Billy held back to almost death when he explicitly said that he would go rough three pages in the fight?

Right, did he also held back his durability?

Quote
Billy was never said to be "almost killed". As for the rest, that could mean a number of things, including the possibility that Billy and Superman were equal in strength, but that Superman used more of his strength because he was possessed by a villain.

Right, Superman was the most powerful individual on Earth but somehow Cap was his equal in strength.

I didn't say Billy was Superman's equal in strength, but he could've been. They looked very close to equal in that fight.

Looking equal doesn't shows on Superman's face. Did Thor also looked equal to Hulk when Hulk rearranged his face?

Quote
How did Superman beat Lar Gand in that situation?

That's open to interpretation, but if we accept what Eclipso said about Lar Gand being more powerful than Superman, then Supes' victory likely wasn't a result of him being stronger than Lar. And before you say I'm contradicting myself on the power/strength thing, Superman and Lar had near-identical powersets, whereas Billy's powerset differed from theirs in a number of ways. Also, the reason Daxamites were billed as being stronger than Kryptonians at that time was to justify why Lar was capable of the kind of feats (including strength feats) performed by pre-Crisis Superboy. So it's pretty obvious Lar was supposed to be outright stronger than post-Crisis Supes back then.
So how did Superman beat Lar Gand so badly that he needed medical attention?



Its funny, you cite Superman fighting savagely and going for the kill is the reason he beat Cap. But when the same happened against Superman by Lar Gand, you flip out and say its not due to strength.

Did Superman try to kill Lar Gand then?