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Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest

The Shuruku Demon

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Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« on: July 01, 2018, 05:51:24 PM »
VS.


• Post-Crisis versions of both characters.

• Both characters stand face-to-face trading punches to the jaw, until one is no longer able to continue.

• Captain Marvel is charging every punch with magical lightning.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2018, 05:56:33 PM »
Please comment on the thread topic, everyone, but I'm also going to use this thread to continue the debate Abhi and I were having in Uhtceare's "Weakest DC character who would beat Superman in a slugfest" thread:
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18784.msg367505#msg367505

And since this is a new thread, I'm reposting this link, which shows the Eclipso-possessed Superman/Captain Marvel fight Abhi and I are discussing:
https://imgur.com/a/8OfkpA4

Now, to Abhi's most recent posts in this discussion, and my replies to them...

Are you saying that Billy attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back, but that Superman attacking Venom from behind doesn't prove the same thing? If that is what you're saying, explain your reasoning.

Not going to answer your red herrings.

Try again.

You made the implicit assertion that CM attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back.
https://imgur.com/uHEhPA4.jpg

I then posted the Supes/Venom scan as evidence that a character attacking from behind doesn't necessarily mean they weren't holding back.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/bhAeVnvz9ayGKNOpS5T8sipxhvgK4cJlhBdoB89pcr0o-9BYHCKBh1pw2_19A-crlNS2Gq3kTV1x=s1600

You've made no attempt to refute this point, which suggests you accept it. And if you do accept that point, then it falls to you to explain why CM attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back in that specific instance. You've yet to provide a rationale for this, and if you can't or won't provide one, you're effectively conceding that there is no rationale behind that position.

Rubbish. He was clearly trying to kill the heroes he fought before Billy made the scene, since he'd promised Superman that he'd use his body to kill someone. Fire interrupted Eclipso when he was about to kill Booster Gold...
https://i.imgur.com/oM95Tyj.jpg

... then Billy interrupted him when he was about to kill Fire...
https://i.imgur.com/uHEhPA4.jpg

... then Eclipso fled from the solar spotlight when he was about to kill Billy.
https://i.imgur.com/tpDneFq.jpg

Eclipso even screams "DIE, MARVEL!!!!" midway through the fight...
https://i.imgur.com/8wdiSBs.jpg

... and you're trying to argue that he wasn't out for the kill? Get outta here.

Well, you're arguing that Captain Marvel was holding back while cheapshotting someone and surprised while having someone on choke hold.

But yeah, if Superman was actually trying to kill Cap, he didn't show it until the end.

Abhi: "But yeah, if Superman was actually trying to kill Cap, he didn't show it until the end."



There were no outside distractions in the Surfer/BRB fight, like there were in the Eclipso-Supes/CM fight. The Surfer was able to hit Bill from behind using nothing more than his own power, which is comparable to a character using speed or invisibility to get around their opponent's guard.

Bill didn't had Surfer in a choke hold either.

You can't get surprised in a fight you're already having, that was your word. Even Cap didn't say Superman won because of a surprise.

You're putting words in my mouth. I'd never have said a character can't be surprised in a fight, since that doesn't reflect what I believe now, or what I've ever believed.

I'm not presenting an unsupported opinion, I'm presenting evidence from canon stories.

Like no writer supporting Cap able to beat Superman in a slugfest?

No, evidence like this scan:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/QTR3-GMx1T7T0PBl-Cm5claG51wQjC7baOn6oFhf4Lh2n5C7B0Oyr7hlrxxXXG14pvk89cXrZuo3=s1600

There's a difference between Fire saying it's a wonder Billy wasn't killed, and saying he was almost killed.

There is?

Yes, there is. Fire saying it's a wonder Billy wasn't killed by the beating he took is akin to her saying she's amazed that he could survive that. It doesn't mean his injuries were near-fatal. She isn't a doctor, and didn't perform a medical exam on Billy as far as we know.

Again, this doesn't change the fact that Eclipso-Supes was going for the kill when he fought Billy, while Billy was holding back.

Nowhere mentioned as a reason why Cap lost.

You're just rationalizing why Cap lost. Post a scan saying that was the reason Cap lost.

There isn't a scan specifically stating that. Can you post a scan specifically stating that the reason Eclipso-Supes beat CM is because he was stronger?

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2018, 05:59:30 PM »
I didn't ignore what Loeb said, I just weighed it against what the story says, and the story keeps the question of whether Superman was being affected by the asteroid or not ambiguous up until S/B #6. If Loeb didn't want it to be ambiguous, he could've easily made it unambiguous, but he didn't.

Yes, you did. What Batman said contradicts the previous statement by Luthor and Loeb's own intent. Yet, you're just bullshiting about Batman being right to make things "ambiguous".

Loeb is the one who scripted Batman saying that the K-rays started to enter the atmosphere in S/B #6. Why did Loeb have Batman say that, if he thought it wasn't true?

Are you trying to suggest Supes was wrong when he said Billy had the advantage toe-to-toe?

No, but Cap was so weak that he failed to beat Superman even with a clear cut advantage.

Billy being strong or weak doesn't alter my fundamental point, which is that he had the advantage.

Billy's done the same thing to Supes on other occasions (as you well know).

Not under Loeb. Who you are taking as an example that Cap would beat Superman in a slugfest.

Cap's feats are still valid, even if they were scripted by other writers. It's true that they may not be in line with how Loeb would write things, but then we don't know the specifics of how Superman "blindsided" CM in Loeb's story, since it happened off-panel. That means we don't know if Supes was able to one-shot CM, as CM did to him in Virtue and Vice, or two-shot CM, as CM did to him in Crisis Times Five. Maybe Supes had to hit CM three, five or ten times to achieve the same result. We don't know. What we do know is that Loeb scripted Supes saying CM had the advantage toe-to-toe.

And in case you think I've forgotten, I'm still waiting for you to explain how Clark's question to Lex was a "trick" in this other thread:
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg367540#msg367540

Panthergod

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2018, 06:44:43 PM »
..So now you're trying to switch to another thread to avoid your obvious lies? lol. Superman exclusively says Cap has the advantage when he is weakened by Kryptonite. There is zero indication that Cap has any sort of advantage in physical combat outside of that FACTUAL context.

shadowknight had the patience to comprehensively explain exactly what an idiot you were being and you're STILL thinking that you're gonna claim that shit?

fuck out of here.

Superman one-two shots Cap, and, yes, is at least double Cap's physical strength and durability level against blunt force/raw power.

gokenadams

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2018, 06:53:53 PM »
..So now you're trying to switch to another thread to avoid your obvious lies? lol. Superman exclusively says Cap has the advantage when he is weakened by Kryptonite. There is zero indication that Cap has any sort of advantage in physical combat outside of that FACTUAL context.

shadowknight had the patience to comprehensively explain exactly what an idiot you were being and you're STILL thinking that you're gonna claim that shit?

fuck out of here.

Superman one-two shots Cap, and, yes, is at least double Cap's physical strength and durability level against blunt force/raw power.

you got debunked. once again.. not surprised

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2018, 07:17:53 PM »
VS.


• Post-Crisis versions of both characters.

• Both characters stand face-to-face trading punches to the jaw, until one is no longer able to continue.

Captain Marvel is charging every punch with magical lightning.

This isn't a slugfest if you are using energy amped punches.


Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2018, 07:29:38 PM »
Please comment on the thread topic, everyone, but I'm also going to use this thread to continue the debate Abhi and I were having in Uhtceare's "Weakest DC character who would beat Superman in a slugfest" thread:
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18784.msg367505#msg367505

And since this is a new thread, I'm reposting this link, which shows the Eclipso-possessed Superman/Captain Marvel fight Abhi and I are discussing:
https://imgur.com/a/8OfkpA4

Now, to Abhi's most recent posts in this discussion, and my replies to them...


I wonder what excuses you will give now.
Quote


Are you saying that Billy attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back, but that Superman attacking Venom from behind doesn't prove the same thing? If that is what you're saying, explain your reasoning.

Not going to answer your red herrings.

Try again.

You made the implicit assertion that CM attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back.
https://imgur.com/uHEhPA4.jpg

I then posted the Supes/Venom scan as evidence that a character attacking from behind doesn't necessarily mean they weren't holding back.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/bhAeVnvz9ayGKNOpS5T8sipxhvgK4cJlhBdoB89pcr0o-9BYHCKBh1pw2_19A-crlNS2Gq3kTV1x=s1600

You've made no attempt to refute this point, which suggests you accept it. And if you do accept that point, then it falls to you to explain why CM attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back in that specific instance. You've yet to provide a rationale for this, and if you can't or won't provide one, you're effectively conceding that there is no rationale behind that position.


Red herring is a red herring. Superman vs Venom has nothing to do with Superman vs Captain Marvel.

Can you stick to the topic or not? One more red herring like this and I'll accept your concession that Captain Marvel didn't hold back while cheapshotting Superman.
Quote


Rubbish. He was clearly trying to kill the heroes he fought before Billy made the scene, since he'd promised Superman that he'd use his body to kill someone. Fire interrupted Eclipso when he was about to kill Booster Gold...
https://i.imgur.com/oM95Tyj.jpg

... then Billy interrupted him when he was about to kill Fire...
https://i.imgur.com/uHEhPA4.jpg

... then Eclipso fled from the solar spotlight when he was about to kill Billy.
https://i.imgur.com/tpDneFq.jpg

Eclipso even screams "DIE, MARVEL!!!!" midway through the fight...
https://i.imgur.com/8wdiSBs.jpg

... and you're trying to argue that he wasn't out for the kill? Get outta here.

Well, you're arguing that Captain Marvel was holding back while cheapshotting someone and surprised while having someone on choke hold.

But yeah, if Superman was actually trying to kill Cap, he didn't show it until the end.

Abhi: "But yeah, if Superman was actually trying to kill Cap, he didn't show it until the end."



Shuruku: Captain Marvel was surprised by Eclipsed Superman and that's why he lost.



Forgets to post the previous page where Cap had Superman in a chokehold.





Eclipso even taunts Cap on the last panel. But no, Cap only lost because of the surprise.


Quote


There were no outside distractions in the Surfer/BRB fight, like there were in the Eclipso-Supes/CM fight. The Surfer was able to hit Bill from behind using nothing more than his own power, which is comparable to a character using speed or invisibility to get around their opponent's guard.

Bill didn't had Surfer in a choke hold either.

You can't get surprised in a fight you're already having, that was your word. Even Cap didn't say Superman won because of a surprise.

You're putting words in my mouth. I'd never have said a character can't be surprised in a fight, since that doesn't reflect what I believe now, or what I've ever believed.


That's what you said.

Now you are changing your stance once again when it suits you. How does Surfer not surprise Bill while Superman surprised Cap?
Quote


I'm not presenting an unsupported opinion, I'm presenting evidence from canon stories.

Like no writer supporting Cap able to beat Superman in a slugfest?

No, evidence like this scan:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/QTR3-GMx1T7T0PBl-Cm5claG51wQjC7baOn6oFhf4Lh2n5C7B0Oyr7hlrxxXXG14pvk89cXrZuo3=s1600


That doesn't supports Cap being able to beat Superman.

Cap lost with all cards stacked in his favor.


Quote

There's a difference between Fire saying it's a wonder Billy wasn't killed, and saying he was almost killed.

There is?

Yes, there is. Fire saying it's a wonder Billy wasn't killed by the beating he took is akin to her saying she's amazed that he could survive that. It doesn't mean his injuries were near-fatal. She isn't a doctor, and didn't perform a medical exam on Billy as far as we know.


So the writer just put there for you to believe Fire was bullshitting and can't be trusted because obviously both her and Bloodwynd were lying. Cap was in top shape.

It's amazing how you can come to the exact opposite conclusion by bullshitting the way you do.

Quote


Again, this doesn't change the fact that Eclipso-Supes was going for the kill when he fought Billy, while Billy was holding back.

Nowhere mentioned as a reason why Cap lost.

You're just rationalizing why Cap lost. Post a scan saying that was the reason Cap lost.

There isn't a scan specifically stating that. Can you post a scan specifically stating that the reason Eclipso-Supes beat CM is because he was stronger?
Yes, it's specifically stated that he was the most powerful hero on planet. Was it excluding Captain Marvel who he beat to near death as stated in the very same comic? [/quote]
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 07:59:34 PM by Abhilegend »

Abhilegend

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2018, 07:46:49 PM »
I didn't ignore what Loeb said, I just weighed it against what the story says, and the story keeps the question of whether Superman was being affected by the asteroid or not ambiguous up until S/B #6. If Loeb didn't want it to be ambiguous, he could've easily made it unambiguous, but he didn't.

Yes, you did. What Batman said contradicts the previous statement by Luthor and Loeb's own intent. Yet, you're just bullshiting about Batman being right to make things "ambiguous".

Loeb is the one who scripted Batman saying that the K-rays started to enter the atmosphere in S/B #6. Why did Loeb have Batman say that, if he thought it wasn't true?


The same way Fire saying Captain Marvel wasn't beaten to death wasn't actually her saying that.

Where did Batman get the information about kryptonite radiation piercing the atmosphere?
Quote


Are you trying to suggest Supes was wrong when he said Billy had the advantage toe-to-toe?

No, but Cap was so weak that he failed to beat Superman even with a clear cut advantage.

Billy being strong or weak doesn't alter my fundamental point, which is that he had the advantage.


And yet lost badly. This isn't about if Cap having an advantage over Superman by magic thread is it?
Quote


Billy's done the same thing to Supes on other occasions (as you well know).

Not under Loeb. Who you are taking as an example that Cap would beat Superman in a slugfest.

Cap's feats are still valid, even if they were scripted by other writers. It's true that they may not be in line with how Loeb would write things, but then we don't know the specifics of how Superman "blindsided" CM in Loeb's story, since it happened off-panel. That means we don't know if Supes was able to one-shot CM, as CM did to him in Virtue and Vice, or two-shot CM, as CM did to him in Crisis Times Five. Maybe Supes had to hit CM three, five or ten times to achieve the same result. We don't know. What we do know is that Loeb scripted Supes saying CM had the advantage toe-to-toe.


Captain Marvel was amped by Wizard Shazam's power in virtue and vice. Hence why he was able to manhandle and drain Black Adam. And when he was forced to say Shazam  Wizard's power flowed back into him and he was able to change himself from stone 

Under Morrison it was luck and magic combined that Superman was completely caught off guard.

Also I liked how blindsided means Superman punched Cap a dozen times. An explicitly less formidable Superman knocked out Captain Marvel in two punches in JSA 34 just fine. So taking Superman's feats account it was just one punch. Like what blindsided means.

And Cap was still unable to beat Superman. Superman just tossed him so hard after palming his punch that a kick from Batman knocked his ass out.
Quote


And in case you think I've forgotten, I'm still waiting for you to explain how Clark's question to Lex was a "trick" in this other thread:
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg367540#msg367540
Haha, you're just pathetic.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 08:02:41 PM by Abhilegend »

Pillow Biter

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2018, 02:06:48 AM »
I'm not a big fan of invoking the magic weakness, SD. It's like chaos theory: patterns in randomness. It's hard to know for sure whether it will matter, and if so, how much. We could use just examples of Shazam and Black Adam, from in and out of strict continuity, charging their punches. But I don't think that would be sufficient. Those are just a few portrayals and you'd have to look at magic as a whole. I'd rather try to rate the fight without magic first, and then discuss magic after that, as best we can.

Similarly, you can't simply look at Shazam/Black Adam portrayals where they face Superman directly. One has to be more holistic.

Also, what do you mean by 'Post-Crisis'? DC's strict continuity is still a mess. In theory, I believe pre-crisis 'counts' in a way. But really, it doesn't. Etc.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 02:10:04 AM by Pillow Biter »

Pillow Biter

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2018, 03:02:05 AM »
Assuming we are talking 1986 to 2011, then things get interesting.

During that time, the classic idea of Marvel and Superman being physical clones was still in play, though it wasn't necessarily subscribed to by all writers and editors. And I'd say the canonical and dogmatic aspects of the parity were starting to weaken by the end of this period.

However, during this period, Superman was also often shown to have a degree of dynamic power. Sometimes the reason was just that he held back more than others, so there was an upper limit, but he rarely showed it. A kind of illusion of dynamism; but his performances were clearly more variable than that of other heroes. Other writers explicitly provided more fundamental rationales for the dynamism, from drawing in more solar energy in response to emotions to mental blocks to psionic or mentally regulated powers, etc. At times, no explanation was provided--Superman is just suddenly soloing multiple elite top tiers, or performing at a level that far exceeds his supposed peers. So you see the paradox of a Marvel= Superman equality under these kinds of writers : Marvel can't logically be completely equal to someone who's powers are more dynamic. That said, comics aren't rational (see Thor and Hulk stalemating in strength).

In the period in question, a writer would typically only decide to bring Marvel into a Superman story in order to play with the classic parity. So while Superman seemed more powerful when you take all showings into account, it seems likely that they will be shown as equals in any given 1v1 fight. And then magic would likely give an edge to Marvel. Superman might get an edge from experience and skill, but in this scenario, he isn't allowed that edge.

So taking all comics into account, I'd say that without the magic, Superman would still have an advantage in theory. But in any given comic where they have to slug it out, they'd likely be shown as physical equals. With no magic, they'd tie. If someone had to win, it would be Superman based on his never-say-die, Rocky-like will to win. But Billy is no slouch there either, so it would be real close. It wouldn't take much magic weakness to put him over the top.

It's a bit like quantum mechanics and wave/particle duality. From a different perspective, each is favored.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2018, 07:58:25 PM »
..So now you're trying to switch to another thread to avoid your obvious lies?

I moved the discussion to a new thread because the guy who started the other thread (Uhtceare) expressed a desire for that discussion to not be continued there.

lol. Superman exclusively says Cap has the advantage when he is weakened by Kryptonite. There is zero indication that Cap has any sort of advantage in physical combat outside of that FACTUAL context.

Apart from the statement I originally presented, which reads as a general statement, unqualified by the particulars of that specific day:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/QTR3-GMx1T7T0PBl-Cm5claG51wQjC7baOn6oFhf4Lh2n5C7B0Oyr7hlrxxXXG14pvk89cXrZuo3=s1600

shadowknight had the patience to comprehensively explain exactly what an idiot you were being and you're STILL thinking that you're gonna claim that shit?

I addressed shadowknight's points in detail. If you'd like to quote what I said to him and rebut it here, be my guest.

fuck out of here.

Superman one-two shots Cap, and, yes, is at least double Cap's physical strength and durability level against blunt force/raw power.

Which authors do you believe would script Superman one or two-shotting Captain Marvel in a slugfest?

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2018, 08:08:50 PM »
This isn't a slugfest if you are using energy amped punches.

It's my thread, and the thread-starter gets to choose whatever stipulations they want.

You made the implicit assertion that CM attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back.
https://imgur.com/uHEhPA4.jpg

I then posted the Supes/Venom scan as evidence that a character attacking from behind doesn't necessarily mean they weren't holding back.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/bhAeVnvz9ayGKNOpS5T8sipxhvgK4cJlhBdoB89pcr0o-9BYHCKBh1pw2_19A-crlNS2Gq3kTV1x=s1600

You've made no attempt to refute this point, which suggests you accept it. And if you do accept that point, then it falls to you to explain why CM attacking Eclipso-Supes from behind proves he wasn't holding back in that specific instance. You've yet to provide a rationale for this, and if you can't or won't provide one, you're effectively conceding that there is no rationale behind that position.

Red herring is a red herring. Superman vs Venom has nothing to do with Superman vs Captain Marvel.

If you accept that Superman could've been holding back against Venom, despite attacking him from behind, that debunks the premise that a character attacking from behind must not be holding back as a general rule. And if it isn't true as a general rule, then it falls to you to explain why it's true in the specific instance of the Eclipso-Superman/CM fight.

Abhi: "But yeah, if Superman was actually trying to kill Cap, he didn't show it until the end."

https://i.imgur.com/ySfazA8.jpg[/img]

Shuruku: Captain Marvel was surprised by Eclipsed Superman and that's why he lost.

https://i.imgur.com/tpDneFq.jpg

Forgets to post the previous page where Cap had Superman in a chokehold.

I uploaded the whole fight to an imgur album and posted a link, both in this thread and the other one. So no, I didn't leave out any pages.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Dqt9JbC8z576aKYI_AoeTwaAExIg9nZKYSp_9PRcQcgl46AE9iRsEQr37RA_gdLZhE8t_ymHex8=s1600


Eclipso even taunts Cap on the last panel. But no, Cap only lost because of the surprise.

Both characters appeared to get distracted on that page. Are you denying that?

And are you going to address the scan I posted of Eclipso yelling "DIE, MARVEL!!!!"...?

You're putting words in my mouth. I'd never have said a character can't be surprised in a fight, since that doesn't reflect what I believe now, or what I've ever believed.

That's what you said.

I'm flatly disputing that I said that. So post the quote, so we can establish which of us telling the truth here.

Now you are changing your stance once again when it suits you. How does Surfer not surprise Bill while Superman surprised Cap?

Surfer did surprise Bill, but he did it exclusively with his own abilities. Eclipso-Supes took advantage of an outside distraction.

No, evidence like this scan:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/QTR3-GMx1T7T0PBl-Cm5claG51wQjC7baOn6oFhf4Lh2n5C7B0Oyr7hlrxxXXG14pvk89cXrZuo3=s1600

That doesn't supports Cap being able to beat Superman.

It supports Billy winning a slugfest, since a slugfest is a toe-to-toe exchange of punches. No "castling" or blindsiding allowed.

Yes, there is. Fire saying it's a wonder Billy wasn't killed by the beating he took is akin to her saying she's amazed that he could survive that. It doesn't mean his injuries were near-fatal. She isn't a doctor, and didn't perform a medical exam on Billy as far as we know.

So the writer just put there for you to believe Fire was bullshitting and can't be trusted because obviously both her and Bloodwynd were lying. Cap was in top shape.

It's amazing how you can come to the exact opposite conclusion by bullshitting the way you do.

The writer put that dialogue there to convey the idea that Billy took a beating that would've killed almost anyone else.

There isn't a scan specifically stating that. Can you post a scan specifically stating that the reason Eclipso-Supes beat CM is because he was stronger?

Yes, it's specifically stated that he was the most powerful hero on planet. Was it excluding Captain Marvel who he beat to near death as stated in the very same comic?

Superman being more powerful than Billy doesn't necessarily make him stronger. And Eclipso-Supes being more powerful than Billy isn't necessarily the primary reason he won that fight... after all, Lar Gand was stated to be more powerful than Superman, but Eclipso still lost to Superman using his body. There's more to who wins a fight than who's the strongest.

So post a scan specifically saying Billy lost to Eclipso-Supes because Superman was stronger.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2018, 08:13:29 PM »
Loeb is the one who scripted Batman saying that the K-rays started to enter the atmosphere in S/B #6. Why did Loeb have Batman say that, if he thought it wasn't true?

The same way Fire saying Captain Marvel wasn't beaten to death wasn't actually her saying that.

So you're saying those two statements served the same purpose in the story... but what was that purpose?

Where did Batman get the information about kryptonite radiation piercing the atmosphere?

I don't know.

Billy being strong or weak doesn't alter my fundamental point, which is that he had the advantage.

And yet lost badly. This isn't about if Cap having an advantage over Superman by magic thread is it?

The initial scan I posted specifically mentioned magic. So yeah, Superman's magic weakness was part & parcel of this discussion from the beginning.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/QTR3-GMx1T7T0PBl-Cm5claG51wQjC7baOn6oFhf4Lh2n5C7B0Oyr7hlrxxXXG14pvk89cXrZuo3=s1600

Cap's feats are still valid, even if they were scripted by other writers. It's true that they may not be in line with how Loeb would write things, but then we don't know the specifics of how Superman "blindsided" CM in Loeb's story, since it happened off-panel. That means we don't know if Supes was able to one-shot CM, as CM did to him in Virtue and Vice, or two-shot CM, as CM did to him in Crisis Times Five. Maybe Supes had to hit CM three, five or ten times to achieve the same result. We don't know. What we do know is that Loeb scripted Supes saying CM had the advantage toe-to-toe.

Captain Marvel was amped by Wizard Shazam's power in virtue and vice. Hence why he was able to manhandle and drain Black Adam. And when he was forced to say Shazam  Wizard's power flowed back into him and he was able to change himself from stone

Hold on, when did you decide Billy was amped in that scene? Because in January of this year, you cited that instance of Billy "manhandling" Adam as if it were representative of his normal strength.
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=17391.msg347890#msg347890

Under Morrison it was luck and magic combined that Superman was completely caught off guard.

Also I liked how blindsided means Superman punched Cap a dozen times. An explicitly less formidable Superman knocked out Captain Marvel in two punches in JSA 34 just fine. So taking Superman's feats account it was just one punch. Like what blindsided means.

And Cap was still unable to beat Superman. Superman just tossed him so hard after palming his punch that a kick from Batman knocked his ass out.

What makes you think Batman's kick knocked Billy out?

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2018, 08:15:37 PM »
I'm not a big fan of invoking the magic weakness, SD. It's like chaos theory: patterns in randomness. It's hard to know for sure whether it will matter, and if so, how much. We could use just examples of Shazam and Black Adam, from in and out of strict continuity, charging their punches. But I don't think that would be sufficient. Those are just a few portrayals and you'd have to look at magic as a whole. I'd rather try to rate the fight without magic first, and then discuss magic after that, as best we can.

I'm not a fan of the magic weakness itself. My favourite Superman/"Captain Marvel" fight is the one pre-Crisis Supes had with Captain Thunder in SUPERMAN #276, where they were simply presented as physical equals, and the magic weakness wasn't obviously a factor.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1939/Issue-276?id=16106#4

But I already know where the posters I'm debating stand on how the fight goes down if Superman's magic weakness isn't a factor. This thread is intended to explore uncharted territory, not to retread old ground.

Similarly, you can't simply look at Shazam/Black Adam portrayals where they face Superman directly. One has to be more holistic.

Also, what do you mean by 'Post-Crisis'? DC's strict continuity is still a mess. In theory, I believe pre-crisis 'counts' in a way. But really, it doesn't. Etc.

I mean we're using the characters as they were (or would've been) presented during the post-Crisis, pre-Flashpoint years.

Assuming we are talking 1986 to 2011, then things get interesting.

During that time, the classic idea of Marvel and Superman being physical clones was still in play, though it wasn't necessarily subscribed to by all writers and editors. And I'd say the canonical and dogmatic aspects of the parity were starting to weaken by the end of this period.

However, during this period, Superman was also often shown to have a degree of dynamic power. Sometimes the reason was just that he held back more than others, so there was an upper limit, but he rarely showed it. A kind of illusion of dynamism; but his performances were clearly more variable than that of other heroes. Other writers explicitly provided more fundamental rationales for the dynamism, from drawing in more solar energy in response to emotions to mental blocks to psionic or mentally regulated powers, etc. At times, no explanation was provided--Superman is just suddenly soloing multiple elite top tiers, or performing at a level that far exceeds his supposed peers. So you see the paradox of a Marvel= Superman equality under these kinds of writers : Marvel can't logically be completely equal to someone who's powers are more dynamic. That said, comics aren't rational (see Thor and Hulk stalemating in strength).

In the period in question, a writer would typically only decide to bring Marvel into a Superman story in order to play with the classic parity. So while Superman seemed more powerful when you take all showings into account, it seems likely that they will be shown as equals in any given 1v1 fight. And then magic would likely give an edge to Marvel. Superman might get an edge from experience and skill, but in this scenario, he isn't allowed that edge.

So taking all comics into account, I'd say that without the magic, Superman would still have an advantage in theory. But in any given comic where they have to slug it out, they'd likely be shown as physical equals. With no magic, they'd tie. If someone had to win, it would be Superman based on his never-say-die, Rocky-like will to win. But Billy is no slouch there either, so it would be real close. It wouldn't take much magic weakness to put him over the top.

It's a bit like quantum mechanics and wave/particle duality. From a different perspective, each is favored.

I largely agree with this breakdown.

Panthergod

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Re: Superman vs. Captain Marvel: Slugfest
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2018, 09:12:42 PM »
Cap being Superman's equal ended as of OWAW. He was never presented as Superman's physical equal after Action 796. or whatever issue Kelly wrote pre-OWAW. He WAS presented as a unique foil due to magick weakness exploitation.