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Human Superman vs Green Goblin

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2018, 05:00:09 PM »
In regard to the red-K story, I didn't say you omitted context. I did say you "left out" something in regard to the other reference you brought up, whereby you suggested that a powerless Clark destroyed a base, when he actually used his powers to do that.

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg365622#msg365622

AP: "Any examples of a powerless Superman bringing down a genius with super powers and political pull?"

Abhi: "He infiltrated and destroyed a Kobra base without any prep."

Scans of how Clark actually destroyed the base:
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Annual-9?id=79832#48

Right, the Kobra base. You're stuck on that? He beat the Kobra soldiers without any powers and blew up the weapons factory.

But yes, he didn't destroy the full base without his powers.

Weapons factory? You mean the disruptor cannon he destroyed using a gun he took from one of the guards?
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Annual-9?id=79832#44

You're presenting Clark shooting something with a gun as evidence of high-end intelligence or prep skills?

You don't have to be deceptive to be able to trick someone.

How else can you trick someone?

Like Superman tricking Lex with the help of Starman?

Starman wasn't involved in the scene we were talking about (the one where Clark asked Lex how he took away Superman's powers). Are you now referring to the earlier part of the story where Starman used his shapeshifting power to impersonate Superman, fooling Lex into thinking Superman had regained his powers (until Mxyzptlk told Lex who it actually was)?
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Starman-1988/Issue-28?id=61211#19

If so, why should Superman be given credit for that?

That was Clark's plan to fool Luthor.

Why wouldn't he get credit for that?

There's no indication that it was Clark's idea; the story doesn't tell us whose idea it was. But even if it was Clark's idea, impersonation isn't much of an intelligence feat. Practically every shapeshifter in fiction has done that. Practically every other master of disguise too.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how Clark's question to Lex was a trick.

Abhilegend

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2018, 12:08:45 AM »
In regard to the red-K story, I didn't say you omitted context. I did say you "left out" something in regard to the other reference you brought up, whereby you suggested that a powerless Clark destroyed a base, when he actually used his powers to do that.

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18684.msg365622#msg365622

AP: "Any examples of a powerless Superman bringing down a genius with super powers and political pull?"

Abhi: "He infiltrated and destroyed a Kobra base without any prep."

Scans of how Clark actually destroyed the base:
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Annual-9?id=79832#48

Right, the Kobra base. You're stuck on that? He beat the Kobra soldiers without any powers and blew up the weapons factory.

But yes, he didn't destroy the full base without his powers.

Weapons factory? You mean the disruptor cannon he destroyed using a gun he took from one of the guards?
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Annual-9?id=79832#44

You're presenting Clark shooting something with a gun as evidence of high-end intelligence or prep skills?


I was talking about him able to infiltrate the kobra center, but yes it is.
Quote


You don't have to be deceptive to be able to trick someone.

How else can you trick someone?

Like Superman tricking Lex with the help of Starman?

Starman wasn't involved in the scene we were talking about (the one where Clark asked Lex how he took away Superman's powers). Are you now referring to the earlier part of the story where Starman used his shapeshifting power to impersonate Superman, fooling Lex into thinking Superman had regained his powers (until Mxyzptlk told Lex who it actually was)?
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Starman-1988/Issue-28?id=61211#19

If so, why should Superman be given credit for that?

That was Clark's plan to fool Luthor.

Why wouldn't he get credit for that?

There's no indication that it was Clark's idea; the story doesn't tell us whose idea it was. But even if it was Clark's idea, impersonation isn't much of an intelligence feat. Practically every shapeshifter in fiction has done that. Practically every other master of disguise too.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how Clark's question to Lex was a trick.
Yes, it was Clark's idea.

Read properly again.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2018, 08:11:33 PM »
Weapons factory? You mean the disruptor cannon he destroyed using a gun he took from one of the guards?
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Annual-9?id=79832#44

You're presenting Clark shooting something with a gun as evidence of high-end intelligence or prep skills?

I was talking about him able to infiltrate the kobra center, but yes it is.

Shooting something with a gun isn't evidence of high intelligence. Neither is walking through a door to get into a building you wish to enter. What are you going to argue next? That Clark being able to tie his own shoe laces is evidence he can outprep Norman Osborn?

There's no indication that it was Clark's idea; the story doesn't tell us whose idea it was. But even if it was Clark's idea, impersonation isn't much of an intelligence feat. Practically every shapeshifter in fiction has done that. Practically every other master of disguise too.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how Clark's question to Lex was a trick.

Yes, it was Clark's idea.

Read properly again.

How about you post the page proving that it was Clark's idea for Starman to pose as Superman? Here's a link to issue where Starman did that, so all you need to do find the right page, and post the direct link to that page.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Starman-1988/Issue-28?id=61211

And I'm still waiting for you to explain how Clark's question to Lex was a trick.

Hulk Victorious

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2018, 11:01:54 AM »
Only Supes fanatics like Abhi would classify his fighting skills as prep skills. Beating up some mooks unarmed is evidence for prep lol

Abhilegend

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2018, 07:50:54 PM »
Weapons factory? You mean the disruptor cannon he destroyed using a gun he took from one of the guards?
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Annual-9?id=79832#44

You're presenting Clark shooting something with a gun as evidence of high-end intelligence or prep skills?

I was talking about him able to infiltrate the kobra center, but yes it is.

Shooting something with a gun isn't evidence of high intelligence. Neither is walking through a door to get into a building you wish to enter. What are you going to argue next? That Clark being able to tie his own shoe laces is evidence he can outprep Norman Osborn?


Infiltrating a highly secured Kobra base is an evidence of such.
Quote


There's no indication that it was Clark's idea; the story doesn't tell us whose idea it was. But even if it was Clark's idea, impersonation isn't much of an intelligence feat. Practically every shapeshifter in fiction has done that. Practically every other master of disguise too.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how Clark's question to Lex was a trick.

Yes, it was Clark's idea.

Read properly again.

How about you post the page proving that it was Clark's idea for Starman to pose as Superman? Here's a link to issue where Starman did that, so all you need to do find the right page, and post the direct link to that page.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Starman-1988/Issue-28?id=61211

And I'm still waiting for you to explain how Clark's question to Lex was a trick.
So you're saying that Starman had the bright idea of posing as Superman all of a sudden?

He was fishing for the information from Lex. Lex was gullible enough to give that to him.

But hey, maybe Lex was holding back his intelligence. Just like Captain Marvel was.

AP

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2018, 11:41:59 PM »
Infiltrating a highly secured Kobra base is an evidence of such.

What he did was no different than any other hero going into a villain base and punching up some no-name guards.  That's standard hero stuff.  Not even superhero stuff.

He was fishing for the information from Lex. Lex was gullible enough to give that to him.

You claim he tricked Lex and he didn't.  Tricking Lex would imply Clark manipulated Lex into doing something base don information Clark had that Lex didn't.  That is not the case.  Clark was not being underhanded in any way.  It was by pure, dumb luck that Lex played himself.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2018, 12:28:09 PM »
Shooting something with a gun isn't evidence of high intelligence. Neither is walking through a door to get into a building you wish to enter. What are you going to argue next? That Clark being able to tie his own shoe laces is evidence he can outprep Norman Osborn?

Infiltrating a highly secured Kobra base is an evidence of such.

Because you say so? Or can you offer some actual reasoning as to why that scene is evidence that a powerless Clark would outprep Norman Osborn?

How about you post the page proving that it was Clark's idea for Starman to pose as Superman? Here's a link to issue where Starman did that, so all you need to do find the right page, and post the direct link to that page.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Starman-1988/Issue-28?id=61211

So you're saying that Starman had the bright idea of posing as Superman all of a sudden?

No, I'm asking you to evidence your claim that it was Superman's idea. Post the page where that was established, please. Here's the link to the issue again:
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Starman-1988/Issue-28?id=61211

And I'm still waiting for you to explain how Clark's question to Lex was a trick.

He was fishing for the information from Lex. Lex was gullible enough to give that to him.

But hey, maybe Lex was holding back his intelligence. Just like Captain Marvel was.

I agree that Clark was fishing for information. That's how I described what he was doing myself. But in what sense was his question to Lex a "trick"? What definition of the word "trick" are you using?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 12:38:56 PM by The Shuruku Demon »

Abhilegend

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2018, 01:12:54 PM »
Shooting something with a gun isn't evidence of high intelligence. Neither is walking through a door to get into a building you wish to enter. What are you going to argue next? That Clark being able to tie his own shoe laces is evidence he can outprep Norman Osborn?

Infiltrating a highly secured Kobra base is an evidence of such.

Because you say so? Or can you offer some actual reasoning as to why that scene is evidence that a powerless Clark would outprep Norman Osborn?


I never even claimed that so why would I prove that?
Quote


How about you post the page proving that it was Clark's idea for Starman to pose as Superman? Here's a link to issue where Starman did that, so all you need to do find the right page, and post the direct link to that page.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Starman-1988/Issue-28?id=61211

So you're saying that Starman had the bright idea of posing as Superman all of a sudden?

No, I'm asking you to evidence your claim that it was Superman's idea. Post the page where that was established, please. Here's the link to the issue again:
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Starman-1988/Issue-28?id=61211


So whose idea was Starman posing as Superman and fooling Lex?
Quote


And I'm still waiting for you to explain how Clark's question to Lex was a trick.

He was fishing for the information from Lex. Lex was gullible enough to give that to him.

But hey, maybe Lex was holding back his intelligence. Just like Captain Marvel was.

I agree that Clark was fishing for information. That's how I described what he was doing myself. But in what sense was his question to Lex a "trick"? What definition of the word "trick" are you using?
Where Lex was gullible enough to give it to Clark.

Still waiting on this.

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=18825.0

Abhilegend

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2018, 01:14:45 PM »
Infiltrating a highly secured Kobra base is an evidence of such.

What he did was no different than any other hero going into a villain base and punching up some no-name guards.  That's standard hero stuff.  Not even superhero stuff.


For street level heroes maybe. I'm drawing a blank on any top tier doing that while Depowered.
Quote


He was fishing for the information from Lex. Lex was gullible enough to give that to him.

You claim he tricked Lex and he didn't.  Tricking Lex would imply Clark manipulated Lex into doing something base don information Clark had that Lex didn't.  That is not the case.  Clark was not being underhanded in any way.  It was by pure, dumb luck that Lex played himself.
Let's agree to disagree.

AP

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2018, 01:55:36 PM »
For street level heroes maybe. I'm drawing a blank on any top tier doing that while Depowered.

Maybe not, but then again, that same feat was replicated by the main characters in Wizard of Oz.

Quote
Let's agree to disagree.

This isn't an agree/disagree sort of issue.  Your argument hinges on the correct usage of the word trick.  You are using that word incorrectly by all definitions.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 05:06:54 PM by AP »

skyrider

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The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2018, 08:01:35 PM »
Because you say so? Or can you offer some actual reasoning as to why that scene is evidence that a powerless Clark would outprep Norman Osborn?

I never even claimed that so why would I prove that?

What point are you trying to make with that scene?

No, I'm asking you to evidence your claim that it was Superman's idea. Post the page where that was established, please. Here's the link to the issue again:
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Starman-1988/Issue-28?id=61211

So whose idea was Starman posing as Superman and fooling Lex?

I don't know whose idea it was, but you claimed it was Superman's (Abhi: "Yes, it was Clark's idea."), so post the page where that was established.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Starman-1988/Issue-28?id=61211

I agree that Clark was fishing for information. That's how I described what he was doing myself. But in what sense was his question to Lex a "trick"? What definition of the word "trick" are you using?

Where Lex was gullible enough to give it to Clark.

What definition of the word "trick" are you using?

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2018, 01:01:20 AM »
Topped, because I know Abhi is dying to respond to this and prove he wasn't full of shit here.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #73 on: July 11, 2018, 12:01:24 AM »
Tapping out, Abhi?



The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2018, 01:37:05 AM »
Tapping out, Abhi?

I guess so. Seems like Abhi tricked himself into thinking he had an argument here.