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Human Superman vs Green Goblin

Pillow Biter

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2018, 12:01:44 PM »
Superman's intelligence level and skills are not set in stone as inviolable elements of his core canon, leaving writers lots of room to play around with them. Sometimes Superman is one of the greatest scientists on Earth, or listed as one of its smartest beings; and at other times he needs help from Steel or Doctor Hamilton for basic tech needs and problems.
I clearly have a bad recollection of Green Goblin, or may be focusing in childhood memories of Spider-man cartoons. At any rate, you guys set me straight and I'm in no position to judge Green Goblin.
I can say that given what I said above, and the sheer scope of Superman's potential resources (which he often seems to ignore--like his intelligence--in favor of getting Earth-tech assistance), Superman's performance here is extremely variable. I have no idea who would be favored on average, but I would say a highly competent and intelligent Superman portrayal put in this kind of position would be extremely dangerous. At the other end of the spectrum, many Superman portrayals would likely be heavily outclassed here.

Pillow Biter

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2018, 12:05:50 PM »
Superman's super-intelligence is one of his powers. Why would he still have super-intelligence if he's turned into a human and not simply a powerless kryptonian?

As I mention above, over the years Superman's intelligence and/or tech competence has been all over the place. However, there are two separate elements here: his raw IQ and his 'super intelligence'. The former is not part of his powers, the latter is. I'd say his 'super-intelligence' is basically composed of his mental super-speed and perfect memory, and a writer's willingness to explore what such things could mean when used in conjunction with high raw intelligence. 

XerxesTWD

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2018, 12:37:07 PM »
Superman's super-intelligence is one of his powers. Why would he still have super-intelligence if he's turned into a human and not simply a powerless kryptonian?

No it isn't.
I would love to see the comic that clearly says Superman's super intelligence is NOT one of his powers.

Not your interpretation of things. What book was that stated in? I'm happy to track it down myself if you just cite it. If your reference checks out, I'll gladly admit I was incorrect.

Not BAMF

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2018, 12:39:55 PM »
Superman only wins if/because Norman badly underestimates him. Norman is smart and he is not a jobber, but he is also cocky. If he sees Superman as just a dude and assumes he can just go in and carpet-bomb his ass, Supes might come up with a good enough plan to win.

Abhilegend

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2018, 01:51:53 PM »
Supes is good at the riddles and stuff Mxy throws at him, that's true.  I'm not sure that translates into out-prepping someone like Lex or Osborn.

Do you have scans of the powerless Superman fighting Kobra?

Sure.


 

AP

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2018, 04:22:40 PM »
Supes is good at the riddles and stuff Mxy throws at him, that's true.  I'm not sure that translates into out-prepping someone like Lex or Osborn.

Do you have scans of the powerless Superman fighting Kobra?

Sure.


 

He seems to be having some help from Jimmy Olsen there.  How did he find the base?

AP

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2018, 04:34:27 PM »
Superman's intelligence level and skills are not set in stone as inviolable elements of his core canon, leaving writers lots of room to play around with them. Sometimes Superman is one of the greatest scientists on Earth, or listed as one of its smartest beings; and at other times he needs help from Steel or Doctor Hamilton for basic tech needs and problems.
I clearly have a bad recollection of Green Goblin, or may be focusing in childhood memories of Spider-man cartoons. At any rate, you guys set me straight and I'm in no position to judge Green Goblin.
I can say that given what I said above, and the sheer scope of Superman's potential resources (which he often seems to ignore--like his intelligence--in favor of getting Earth-tech assistance), Superman's performance here is extremely variable. I have no idea who would be favored on average, but I would say a highly competent and intelligent Superman portrayal put in this kind of position would be extremely dangerous. At the other end of the spectrum, many Superman portrayals would likely be heavily outclassed here.

His super intelligence seems to be one of those things that only comes up once every few years when a writer remembers it or cares to have it.  9/10. he's going to Batman, Steel, Hamilton, or a number of other scientists.  There's a reason why Lex Luthor and Brainiac are his main adversaries.  It's brains vs brawn.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2018, 05:03:49 PM »
Supes is good at the riddles and stuff Mxy throws at him, that's true.  I'm not sure that translates into out-prepping someone like Lex or Osborn.

Definitely not. Unbeknownst to Superman, Mxy created a rock of "red Kryptonite" and gave it to Luthor, promising that it'd make Luthor and Superman physical equals. Mxy outlined one condition to this offer: Luthor must not tell Superman about Mxy's involvement.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Issue-49?id=16708#3

Lex used the rock and it instantly rendered Superman powerless. Not only that, but according to Professor Hamilton, Superman's physiology had actually been turned human. As such, he had no idea how to restore Superman's powers.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Adventures-of-Superman-1987/Issue-472?id=29531#10

For a few issues, Superman tried to continue his crime-fighting activities, compensating for his power loss with tech provided by Hamilton.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Adventures-of-Superman-1987/Issue-472?id=29531#14
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Action-Comics-1938/Issue-659?id=25931#4

He also enlisted the aid of Starman, who obtained the red-K rock from Luthor. But Hamilton couldn't work out how the rock had removed Superman's powers, since it was nothing like green-K according to him, and wasn't even radioactive. As such, they were no closer to restoring Superman's powers.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Starman-1988/Issue-28?id=61211#22

Superman said he couldn't enter his Fortress without his powers.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Adventures-of-Superman-1987/Issue-472?id=29531#11

And he was unable to get past Luthor's security guards when he tried to visit Luthor's office as Clark Kent, because he didn't have an appointment.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Issue-50?id=16710#2

By pure chance, Clark happened to be dining out with Lois when she received a call from Luthor, who wanted her to write his autobiography. Clark took the phone and offered Luthor the red-K in exchange for "a story". Luthor told him to bring the rock to LexCorp tower in 20 minutes.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Issue-50?id=16710#16

So Clark showed up at Luthor's office with the red-K in a briefcase. Remember that Clark still had no idea Mxy was involved with any of this, or about the rule Mxy had imposed on Luthor. He was just fishing for clues on how exactly Luthor had removed his powers. Since Luthor didn't know Clark was Superman, he went ahead and told him that Mxy had given him the red-K, thus violating the rule and causing Superman to regain his powers.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Issue-50?id=16710#18

In conclusion, it's a mite generous to portray this as Superman "tricking" Luthor in a way that might reflect positively on his odds against Gobby. Technically, you could say he tricked Luthor, in the sense that Luthor was fooled by his civilian ID. But Clark didn't go in with a specific plan here, other than to fish for clues. He had no idea he'd be getting Luthor to break Mxy's rule. That was basically a happy accident.

In a way, this story reflects poorly on a powerless Superman's odds against Norman, since it indicates that he'd have no access to the Fortress of Solitude without his powers, no way to get into LexCorp tower without help or an appointment, and no means to tackle super powered opponents without tech or help provided by others.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 05:40:35 PM by The Shuruku Demon »

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2018, 05:09:57 PM »
He seems to be having some help from Jimmy Olsen there.  How did he find the base?

He used his powers to do that. Specifically, his energy powers, since he was in his Superman-Blue phase at the time.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Annual-9?id=79832#26

When he got near the base, he was zapped by a weapon that left his energy form temporarily disabled, forcing him to switch to his powerless Clark Kent form to make further progress. He then scaled a cliff face in his powerless form, and managed to get past some guards and into the base, as shown in the scans Abhi posted.

What Abhi left out though is that on the very next page after those scans, Superman had regained enough control of his energy powers to use them to overload the electrical systems in the base, which set off a chain reaction that led to the base's destruction. http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-1987/Annual-9?id=79832#48

So when Abhi suggested that a powerless Clark destroyed the base, that was again rather misleading. This was moreso a good physical showing for a powerless Clark than an impressive mental one.

AP

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2018, 06:09:44 PM »
I figured we'd get to the bottom of those "showings" soon enough.

Panthergod

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2018, 06:29:32 PM »
Superman's intelligence level and skills are not set in stone as inviolable elements of his core canon, leaving writers lots of room to play around with them. Sometimes Superman is one of the greatest scientists on Earth, or listed as one of its smartest beings; and at other times he needs help from Steel or Doctor Hamilton for basic tech needs and problems.
I clearly have a bad recollection of Green Goblin, or may be focusing in childhood memories of Spider-man cartoons. At any rate, you guys set me straight and I'm in no position to judge Green Goblin.
I can say that given what I said above, and the sheer scope of Superman's potential resources (which he often seems to ignore--like his intelligence--in favor of getting Earth-tech assistance), Superman's performance here is extremely variable. I have no idea who would be favored on average, but I would say a highly competent and intelligent Superman portrayal put in this kind of position would be extremely dangerous. At the other end of the spectrum, many Superman portrayals would likely be heavily outclassed here.

His super intelligence seems to be one of those things that only comes up once every few years when a writer remembers it or cares to have it.  9/10. he's going to Batman, Steel, Hamilton, or a number of other scientists.  There's a reason why Lex Luthor and Brainiac are his main adversaries.  It's brains vs brawn.

.. and he outsmarts them. regularly.

XerxesTWD

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2018, 08:26:27 PM »
Superman's intelligence level and skills are not set in stone as inviolable elements of his core canon, leaving writers lots of room to play around with them. Sometimes Superman is one of the greatest scientists on Earth, or listed as one of its smartest beings; and at other times he needs help from Steel or Doctor Hamilton for basic tech needs and problems.
I clearly have a bad recollection of Green Goblin, or may be focusing in childhood memories of Spider-man cartoons. At any rate, you guys set me straight and I'm in no position to judge Green Goblin.
I can say that given what I said above, and the sheer scope of Superman's potential resources (which he often seems to ignore--like his intelligence--in favor of getting Earth-tech assistance), Superman's performance here is extremely variable. I have no idea who would be favored on average, but I would say a highly competent and intelligent Superman portrayal put in this kind of position would be extremely dangerous. At the other end of the spectrum, many Superman portrayals would likely be heavily outclassed here.

His super intelligence seems to be one of those things that only comes up once every few years when a writer remembers it or cares to have it.  9/10. he's going to Batman, Steel, Hamilton, or a number of other scientists.  There's a reason why Lex Luthor and Brainiac are his main adversaries.  It's brains vs brawn.

.. and he outsmarts them. regularly.
While human?

XerxesTWD

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2018, 03:21:20 PM »
I guess not.

AP

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2018, 03:35:40 PM »
I want to see instances of Supes outsmarting Lex, Brainiac, or other highly intelligent villains?  I'm not looking for times he defeated them mind you.  I want times when he out-prepped them.  Even while fully powered.  Let's start there.

GeneralPresidentSkeletor

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Re: Human Superman vs Green Goblin
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2018, 04:04:19 PM »
I have to say I am absolutely shocked, SHOCKED, that Ahbi & Jellyrobes misrepresented and misconstrued “feats” for Superman. *clutching pearls to my chest*