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Upper_Krust

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2018, 09:16:03 PM »
If I were going to "smite" you there would be a few thousand.

My guess is you did 3...am I close?  ???

Quote
Good thing you're keeping track of points that mean absolutely nothing though.


I thought it was funny that a bunch of SJWs got annoyed enough at some comments I'd made. :)

As for keeping track, 5 to 20 isn't exactly hard math.

Quote
If your feelings are hurt because somebody else smote you, feel free to report it to the mod of this forum. I think it's AP.

Don't be silly (there you are again with the 'hurt feelings' projection) I actually understood that with that many smites I must have been pissing off the right people.

Quote
You don't seem to actually know what hypocrisy is.

I think we both know exactly what it means; I suspect certain people just don't care.

Personally I really do want some dialogue on this matter with the likes of yourself and others because I honestly don't understand the SJW (or left leaning if the former is too insulting for you) perspective on this issue. Comics are only going to get worse and worse if we continue along these identity politics lines.

But when you try and get that discussion going any criticism of poorly written characters becomes your sexist, racist, homophobic or whatever.

Upper_Krust

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #91 on: June 09, 2018, 09:21:53 PM »
I'm a huge Spider-Man fan. Peter Parker and Kyle Rayner are my two  favorite characters. I'm not really sure where the complaints are coming from.

Give me a couple of days and I'll get back to you on this - as noted I am not a Spidey fan myself so I only pay attention to whats going on with Peter peripherally.

Off the top of my head I recall some stuff whereby Pete and Johnny Storm were acting like boyfriends, Peter deferred to
 (15 y/o) Miles in another comic, He's literally cucked out by Mockingbird, made to seem like the weak link when his wife and daughter share his powers and a few other situations. But maybe these are isolated events rather than the norm - who knows?

MTL76

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #92 on: June 10, 2018, 01:21:17 PM »
Here is an example of SJW themes in Spider-Man:



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SmeaGog

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #93 on: June 10, 2018, 01:38:26 PM »
Really? A twelve year old scene from Runaways is what's wrong with modern Spider-Man?

MTL76

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #94 on: June 10, 2018, 01:45:13 PM »
Yes, that was the take-home message.

Sorry, that came off snarky. But I think it’s a good example of what people are objecting to with Marvel the last few years. Spider-Man is the ultimate hero for the little guy. He’s a nerd empowerment story. His motto is iconic for its universal message of personal responsibility and looking out for one another. And a purple-haired gender studies student tells him that’s all wrong, and class warfare is the answer. And he eats it up. It’s like a parody.

Fwiw I didn’t hate Slott’s run. I dipped in and out but it certainly had good points. But an example from his run specifically was killing off Electro for and replacing him with... female Electro, who dresses exactly like him, for the most contrived reasons.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 02:06:11 PM by MTL76 »


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NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #95 on: June 10, 2018, 02:13:37 PM »
I'm not sure when the SJW era of Marvel supposedly started but thats from an issue of Runaways from 12 years ago.
http://viewcomic.com/runaways-v2-011-2006/

Spider-Man was trying to reason with them so he can help Cloak with they were also trying to help.

Here is the reddit thread the completely out of context panel is from.
https://old.reddit.com/r/CringeAnarchy/comments/7qv1gk/purple_haired_sjw_schools_spiderman_on_the_with/

Looks like a lot of people who pretend to be comic fans trashing New SJW Marvel without realizing they are talking about a relatively old comic that was pretty well received by comic fans at the time.

MTL76

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #96 on: June 10, 2018, 02:27:59 PM »
Twelve years ago? Fuck, I’m getting old.


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SmeaGog

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #97 on: June 10, 2018, 02:39:45 PM »
Yes, that was the take-home message.

Sorry, that came off snarky. But I think it’s a good example of what people are objecting to with Marvel the last few years. Spider-Man is the ultimate hero for the little guy. He’s a nerd empowerment story. His motto is iconic for its universal message of personal responsibility and looking out for one another. And a purple-haired gender studies student tells him that’s all wrong, and class warfare is the answer. And he eats it up. It’s like a parody.

Fwiw I didn’t hate Slott’s run. I dipped in and out but it certainly had good points. But an example from his run specifically was killing off Electro for and replacing him with... female Electro, who dresses exactly like him, for the most contrived reasons.

(Pre-edit:)
I honest to fuck can't begin to imagine what you thought your message was, but yes, I figured it was well worth pointing out your example of relevant "SJW themes" in Spider-Man is actually a dated reference from an altogether different title which served its actual themes pretty fucking well (and isn't even particular to "social justice" discourse in any meaningful sense in the first place).



Keeping this here because I didn't see your edit earlier (the preview window doesn't seem to update properly upon refresh) and it does hit on most of what I'd have wanted to address, if in an overly agressive tone.

For what it's worth, Runaways was a book about teenaged angst and rebellion, and the scene hits those themes rather well, as far as I'm concerend. The fact that people are upset about a somewhat out of context scene where Spider-Man isn't immediately offended by a kid attempting to turn a phrase is, if anything, a good example of the outrage culture they are meant to be protesting.

I'd say a little more about the merits and demerits of daring to criticize a nerd icon, but I'm on the phone and this is taking forever as it is.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 02:43:24 PM by SmeaGog »

Red Exodus

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #98 on: June 10, 2018, 04:35:47 PM »
Honestly the big problem with Marvel's "SJW run" as it were, was that it introduced
new characters (or promoted) existing ones for ham-fisted reasons.

Ms. Marvel to me, was the definitive way of introducing a new minority character
without having it shit on/replace the existing one, and furthermore, without the
entirety of its run being an obvious "LOOK AT MY INSERT DEMOGRAPHIC" ad
nauseum. Ms. America on the hand, is the complete opposite of this.

To give you a better example, think of the character's titles and how they literally
represent them :

"Lesbian Blatina Ms. America Chavez"
vs.
"Kamala Kahn, Ms. Marvel, Muslim American."

One book does not referencing (often where its most of the time, unnecessary)
and practically force feeding you her sexual identity (as well as her parents),
as well as her gender. The problem here is that she is from another fictional
dimension, and when first introduced, she didn't really "act" like a typical
portrayal of a young American hispanic woman. She had a determined attitude,
was tough yet caring, and could you know, speak well, with the occassional
word or lingo in Spanish. All par for the course for foreign or ethnic characters.

Now all of a sudden, her character is playing it up to such a hilarious degree,
that it damn near harkens back to the days when all middle/upper class white
comic writers tried to write African American characters. (Ironic, considering
her writer was a Hispanic woman.)

Now as for Kamala, we have the trade off that at that time period, Carol was
already "Captain Marvel", so there was no "Ms. Marvel" at the time.

Secondly, Kamala herself was a way of introducing American readers to an
ethnic group that seldom, if at all, ever gets any respectable, let alone positive
representation : Middle-Easterners. We've had a VERY small handfull of heroes
who are from that region, the only one aside from Kamala that pops into my
mind is Dust, from the X-Men.

So with Kamala, we are given an actual look into their culture and just HOW
an American Muslim teenager lives.

The result? She's basically a modern female version of Spider-Man. Her personality
is completely relatable, even despite the cultural differences. She is funny, witty,
and probably best represents how people would react to a world with actual
superheroes (namely her fan-gasming when she encountered Spider-Man,
Wolverine, and of course, Captain Marvel). She took Carol's old name because
she was a diehard fan of hers, and again, the "title" was vacant.

Her adventures are silly, but they are most importantly, fun. In none of the stories
is Kamala's racial background ever forced upon the reader. Her being Muslim
and her culture is really SECONDARY to her character. This is the single biggest
problem any writer who is NOT belonging to the race/gender/orientation/etc.
makes. You introduce your character and their personality, THEN you add in the
other "fluff", like the aforementioned race/gender/etc.

As a result, Kamala is infinitely more relatable to the readers, even if they aren't
Muslim. They all can find something in how she deals with her life that can paralell
with their own. You couldn't do that with America Chavez (in her book anyway).

You CAN have a strong gay character. There are a lot of fans of Batwoman and
Midnighter, and they both don't hide that their gay.

You CAN have strong ethinic characters. The X-Men routinely have lots of non
American heroes that are incredibly popular, and Storm is easily one of the
most popular African characters in comics today.

Now if you want to make the argument of there being "enough" fair representation
of races? I think there IS an argument that no, there isn't. But that's an argument
for another day.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #99 on: June 10, 2018, 04:46:19 PM »
The purple-haired lass completely missed the point of Ben Parker's quote. Taken in it's proper context, Ben clearly meant that with great power should come great responsibility. He wasn't suggesting that most people have great power, or that those with great power necessarily use it responsibly. We can probably excuse the girl for not knowing the full context of the statement, but she didn't debunk Ben's point, she just strawmanned it.

Clownprince23

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #100 on: June 10, 2018, 06:25:14 PM »
Ms. Marvel is one instance I'm fine with. I thought the story and everything made sense when I read the first few arcs. I like that she decided to take up a vacant title and had a learning curve to go through. The only reason I stopped reading was it just got lost in the shuffle and I wasn't a fan of her power set. Once I thought about reading it again, it had been to long.

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #101 on: June 10, 2018, 07:01:27 PM »
The purple-haired lass completely missed the point of Ben Parker's quote. Taken in it's proper context, Ben clearly meant that with great power should come great responsibility. He wasn't suggesting that most people have great power, or that those with great power necessarily use it responsibly. We can probably excuse the girl for not knowing the full context of the statement, but she didn't debunk Ben's point, she just strawmanned it.

That's completely in character for her. Gert from the start was the character you didn't like but later warm up to her. She's like Lisa Simpson. The only character that's more unlikeable at the start Chase.

Upper_Krust

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #102 on: June 10, 2018, 07:25:42 PM »
Haven't seen anything notably good within the pages of Ms. Marvel or the America (Chavez) comics BUT:

1. I'm likely not the target audience for either*.

2. BUT IMPORTANTLY I don't have a problem with either of those books because they were not trying to replace existing characters; so they stand (and FALL) on their own merits.

* I like good stories that are not about Mary Sue/Gary Stu political activists.  :P

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #103 on: June 10, 2018, 09:42:41 PM »
Who was actually replaced though? While Sam was Cap Steve was still around. He also wasnt the first person to temporarily replace Steve. It's been done a few times. Banner was dead for like a hot minute. Wolverine basically got the Return of Superman treatment. Miles basically got a downgrade getting moved to the 616 since he wasn't the primary Spidey anymore. Thor is still around. Tony was replaced by Doom but he's back.

I can get not liking where the stories they are doing with establish characters but I see it less as some she mandate by Marvel and more that people are running out of stories to tell after 60+years.

Dlbiininja

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #104 on: June 11, 2018, 01:19:15 AM »
Honestly the big problem with Marvel's "SJW run" as it were, was that it introduced
new characters (or promoted) existing ones for ham-fisted reasons.

Ms. Marvel to me, was the definitive way of introducing a new minority character
without having it shit on/replace the existing one, and furthermore, without the
entirety of its run being an obvious "LOOK AT MY INSERT DEMOGRAPHIC" ad
nauseum. Ms. America on the hand, is the complete opposite of this.

To give you a better example, think of the character's titles and how they literally
represent them :

"Lesbian Blatina Ms. America Chavez"
vs.
"Kamala Kahn, Ms. Marvel, Muslim American."

One book does not referencing (often where its most of the time, unnecessary)
and practically force feeding you her sexual identity (as well as her parents),
as well as her gender. The problem here is that she is from another fictional
dimension, and when first introduced, she didn't really "act" like a typical
portrayal of a young American hispanic woman. She had a determined attitude,
was tough yet caring, and could you know, speak well, with the occassional
word or lingo in Spanish. All par for the course for foreign or ethnic characters.

Now all of a sudden, her character is playing it up to such a hilarious degree,
that it damn near harkens back to the days when all middle/upper class white
comic writers tried to write African American characters. (Ironic, considering
her writer was a Hispanic woman.)

Now as for Kamala, we have the trade off that at that time period, Carol was
already "Captain Marvel", so there was no "Ms. Marvel" at the time.

Secondly, Kamala herself was a way of introducing American readers to an
ethnic group that seldom, if at all, ever gets any respectable, let alone positive
representation : Middle-Easterners. We've had a VERY small handfull of heroes
who are from that region, the only one aside from Kamala that pops into my
mind is Dust, from the X-Men.

So with Kamala, we are given an actual look into their culture and just HOW
an American Muslim teenager lives.

The result? She's basically a modern female version of Spider-Man. Her personality
is completely relatable, even despite the cultural differences. She is funny, witty,
and probably best represents how people would react to a world with actual
superheroes (namely her fan-gasming when she encountered Spider-Man,
Wolverine, and of course, Captain Marvel). She took Carol's old name because
she was a diehard fan of hers, and again, the "title" was vacant.

Her adventures are silly, but they are most importantly, fun. In none of the stories
is Kamala's racial background ever forced upon the reader. Her being Muslim
and her culture is really SECONDARY to her character. This is the single biggest
problem any writer who is NOT belonging to the race/gender/orientation/etc.
makes. You introduce your character and their personality, THEN you add in the
other "fluff", like the aforementioned race/gender/etc.

As a result, Kamala is infinitely more relatable to the readers, even if they aren't
Muslim. They all can find something in how she deals with her life that can paralell
with their own. You couldn't do that with America Chavez (in her book anyway).

You CAN have a strong gay character. There are a lot of fans of Batwoman and
Midnighter, and they both don't hide that their gay.

You CAN have strong ethinic characters. The X-Men routinely have lots of non
American heroes that are incredibly popular, and Storm is easily one of the
most popular African characters in comics today.

Now if you want to make the argument of there being "enough" fair representation
of races? I think there IS an argument that no, there isn't. But that's an argument
for another day.

Your flaw with using Ms. marvel should be apparent to you.  Considering Danvers was the first female replacement using that name.  Then later Monica. Who has grown as a character and has her own name now.  And of course back again to Carol. Why the silence on Carol gaining the name again? Later simultaneously giving it to Kamala.  But, silence up until Kamala a Muslim character comes into play.  I'm like let them run the course and see what happens.  Hell, X-23 is getting her own title and losing the wolverine name.  Who's to say Kamala won't get a name change?  The take the on moon-girl with devil dinosaur is definitely an improvement on that combo.  And often I think taking the name of someone who's passed given the title to another is an honorable thing to do in attempt to carry on that name.  Which, was clearly done say in the regards to Riri and even in Dr. Dooms case.  But, no one had an issue with Doom taking up the mantle.  Or much less even when Dr. Ock took over as the superior spider-man.  Which, I even felt was an excellent run. 
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