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Panthergod

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2018, 04:37:57 PM »
Rock:

“Social justice warrior” is a reference to Social Justice ideology. It’s an academic ideology grounded in postmodernism/radical social constructivism. It’s a discipline that teaches seeing people as members of groups, not as individuals. The Superman scene you posted promotes the opposite.

1950's Eisenhower Era Civic Nationalism is a individualist ideology..? since when?

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Your examples of past politics are brief snippets of political statements or analogies in comics driven primarily by entertainment. That’s not what Marvel is doing now. And, with the exception of the Denny O’ Neil Green Lantern scene (which has always been controversial among fans and creators), none of your examples are especially preachy. They’re just background or Easter eggs in stories written mostly to entertain. The X-Men are a good example. You can read Claremont’s classic run and never feel like the comic is preaching to you.

This is a Joke, right..?

Claremonmt's run is virtually the EMBODIMENT of preachy superhero comics. Just because you enjoyed it doesn't mean that the inclusion of, leftist ideology, including blatant racial  and homosexual subtext, didn't offend many on the conservative side.

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This is a clear distinction, in my view.

Yes, tjhe distinction is.. your personal preference. nothing more.


The political foundation of entire Superhero Genre is grounded in left wing Social Justice ideology. Period. Now, as someone who has been VERY critical of the Left being from one of the most liberal areas in the country, I hear many of the critiques of the Tumblr-era purple haired harpies who need to demean men in order to validate women, like Kathleen Kennedy did with the LAst Jedi. But What's NOT gonna happen here is people pretending as if this isn't ALSO grounded in the larger context of  the resurgence of overt racism and the gender war in this country.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 04:55:17 PM by Panthergod »

MTL76

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2018, 06:24:01 PM »
The nature of today's progressiveism is very different from Claremont's era, PG. Claremont's message was basically one of outcasts fighting for acceptance and equality, and judging people as individuals rather than as members of their group. Progressivism today is intersectionality, toxic masculinity, original sin, and group identity trumping individuality.

Claremont would almost certainly be considered regressive by today's SJWs.


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Panthergod

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2018, 08:42:04 PM »
The nature of today's progressiveism is very different from Claremont's era, PG. Claremont's message was basically one of outcasts fighting for acceptance and equality, and judging people as individuals rather than as members of their group. Progressivism today is intersectionality, toxic masculinity, original sin, and group identity trumping individuality.

Claremont would almost certainly be considered regressive by today's SJWs.
First off, the Entire X-Men concept is among other things a white mainstream liberal demonization of Black Nationalism represented by Malcolm X. Equating Malcolm's ideology of self defense in the face of state sponsored terror that America has always been to a terrorist was always a blatant representation of how fake white liberals despise the idea of Black people not wanting to lay themselves at the mercy of a populace perfectly willign to allow a terrorist totalitarian police state murder and torture black people at will for centuries to this very second. We see this sentiment in this board, after all. makes sense than Stan Lee was a Clinton supporter.

Claremont literally used the MU populace's bigoted fear of living weapons of mass destruction as an excuse to allow a white girl to call a black man nigger:

https://i.imgur.com/imOD3BM.png

Y'know, Oats'  Canadian pussy 'race doesn't matter nigger' racism makes alot more sense now..


But any way, Marxist praxis being applies to class, race, gender, sexuality as represented by intersectionality is an obvious red herring. Marxism was in many areas spot on in its analysis of capitalism but those various issues have their own contexts which were obfuscated by the Frankfurt School cultural Marxists that formulated Progressive theory in academia in order to leverage disadvantaged groups with varying interests as a larger group against the dominant society. 'Original Sin' is an obvious BS way to deflect from centuries of continuing one-sided warfare corrupt morally weak people knowingly choose to benefit from. 'Group identity trumping individuality' is another red herring. People are both individuals and part of a collective. it's not an either/or situation.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 08:53:19 PM by Panthergod »

Rufio

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #78 on: June 06, 2018, 12:04:15 AM »
Rock:

“Social justice warrior” is a reference to Social Justice ideology. It’s an academic ideology grounded in postmodernism/radical social constructivism. It’s a discipline that teaches seeing people as members of groups, not as individuals. The Superman scene you posted promotes the opposite.

1950's Eisenhower Era Civic Nationalism is a individualist ideology..? since when?

Who said anything about an "individualist ideology?" Lots of ideologies that promote collective action still promote logically evaluating the merits of each person. This includes socialistic economic thinkers. If you believe in helping the greatest number of individuals through a collective social safety net, your ultimate goal is still to help people. Success is defined by how many individuals you help.

This is distinguished from, say, deciding all wealthy farmers or bourgeoisie must have obtained their wealth undeservedly--a communist concept roughly equivalent to "white/male privilege" today. Or that there is such a thing as "bourgeois science" or "capitalist science," and it should be discarded because it's been infected by their bourgeois privilege. You see the same thing today, with SJWs railing against white/male/"colonialist" science. (Likewise, on the nationalist right, the Nazis rejected "Jewish science"). Or that all of society and culture is a bourgeois conspiracy.

If you don't believe in inherited collective guilt, and if your political goal is to help the largest number of individuals, you aren't treating people as members of groups in the sense that I mean.

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Your examples of past politics are brief snippets of political statements or analogies in comics driven primarily by entertainment. That’s not what Marvel is doing now. And, with the exception of the Denny O’ Neil Green Lantern scene (which has always been controversial among fans and creators), none of your examples are especially preachy. They’re just background or Easter eggs in stories written mostly to entertain. The X-Men are a good example. You can read Claremont’s classic run and never feel like the comic is preaching to you.

This is a Joke, right..?

Claremonmt's run is virtually the EMBODIMENT of preachy superhero comics. Just because you enjoyed it doesn't mean that the inclusion of, leftist ideology, including blatant racial  and homosexual subtext, didn't offend many on the conservative side.

You're resorting to "subtext?" 
 
A typical Claremont political scene is Storm berating Wolverine for hunting. Wolverine tells her it's none of her business, but also clarifies that he just sneaks up to animals rather than killing them. Claremont may have his opinion, but the scene doesn't make either hunters or animal rights activists look incompetent or stupid.

In SJW Marvel, it's completely one-sided.  SJW writers repeatedly give the message that anyone who does not agree with radical social constructivism doesn't believe in equal rights and social standing.  And that's to be expected, because the ideology being implemented teaches that concepts like "objectivity" and "reason" are themselves oppressive social constructs created to benefit white straight males. In this way, SJW ideology absurdly teaches that there's no way to fairly debate or criticize its ideas. A good book was written about this in the 1990s. Its authors write about it here:

http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3051&context=facpubs

Yes, tjhe distinction is.. your personal preference. nothing more.

The political foundation of the entire Superhero Genre is grounded in left wing Social Justice ideology. Period.

Citation needed. 

Social Justice ideology--in the sense referred to in universities today--is grounded in the ideas of the late 1970s postmodernists. Building on that, people like Derrick Bell and Judith Butler really caused it to infect academia in the 80s and 90s. Virtually all of the iconic heroes were created much earlier.

You seem to be equating the entire left with SJWs. But there are extreme leftists, well to the left of Bernie Sanders, who are well-respected and disavow the postmodern epistemology. A decade before postmodernism, here's what another leftist, Christopher Hitchens, had to say about the much less extreme identity politics that began around 1970:

"As 1968 began to ebb into 1969, however, and as “anticlimax” began to become a real word in my lexicon, another term began to obtrude itself. People began to intone the words “The Personal Is Political”. At the instant that I first heard this deadly expression, I knew as one does from the utterance of any sinister bullshit that it was – cliche is arguably forgiveable here – very bad news. From now on, it would be enough to be a member of a sex or gender, or epidermal subdivision, or even erotic “preference”, to qualify as a revolutionary. In order to begin a speech or ask a question from the floor, all that would be necessary by way of preface would be the words, “Speaking as a…” Then could follow any self-loving description. I will have to say this for the old “hard” Left: we earned our claim to speak and intervene by right of experience and sacrifice and work. It would never have done for any of us to stand up and say that our sex or sexuality or pigmentation or disability were qualifications in themselves. There are many ways of dating the moment where the Left lost or – I would prefer to say – discarded its moral advantage, but this was the first time I was to see the sell-out conducted so cheaply."
 
Now, as someone who has been VERY critical of the Left being from one of the most liberal areas in the country, I hear many of the critiques of the Tumblr-era purple haired harpies who need to demean men in order to validate women, like Kathleen Kennedy did with the LAst Jedi. But What's NOT gonna happen here is people pretending as if this isn't ALSO grounded in the larger context of  the resurgence of overt racism and the gender war in this country.

I really have no idea what point you think you're making here.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 12:18:15 AM by Rufio »

Rufio

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2018, 08:59:30 AM »
I won’t have time to post again until next week, but wanted to add one thing:

Jelly’s complaint that the X-Men made Magneto into Malcolm X makes my point. People LOVED Claremont’s Magneto, with his Malcolm X rhetoric. He became a lot of people’s favorite villain or anti-hero due to that run.

The debate between Xavier and Magneto was portrayed as serious. Magneto was competent, articulate, and complex. You can read Claremont’s stories and sympathize with Magneto, even though his view is ultimately written as the wrong one. Much the same way many fans agreed with Rorschach in Watchmen or Iron Man in the original Civil War. And all of these characters were portrayed as forces to be reckoned with, not bumbling dolts who are easily defeated.

Compare that to SJW Marvel. The remade versions of heroes routinely one-shot villains, get randomly praised by all the heroes for no apparent reason, are told that they do everything better than the original character they’re standing in for, etc. On the flip side, Odin and Thor get portrayed as bumbling and chauvinistic, Peter Parker is turned into a wimp, anyone who’s okay with white hipsters moving to Harlem is shown as naive, and so on. The “privileged” characters are weak, incompetent, and often bigoted dolts.

The problem isn’t politics in comics per se. It’s that there’s a company-wide coordinated replacement of iconic characters with sex-swapped or skin color-swapped versions all at once. And the new versions get the Mary Sue treatment, while any criticism of this ham-fisted maneuver or the politics behind it is caricatured and not portrayed seriously. There’s no complex political debate. Instead, on one side of the “debate” there’s a Mary Sue/Gary Stu character. On the other side, there’s a bumbling weak bigot. This isn’t good storytelling. It’s political messaging that sacrifices story.

Saga is a good contrast. It has many of the diversity themes SJW Marvel is going for, but integrates them as background to a story about complex, flawed characters.

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2018, 12:22:10 PM »
What storyline are you referencing that had Parker as a wimp?

Upper_Krust

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2018, 12:58:51 PM »
What storyline are you referencing that had Parker as a wimp?

I'm no Spidey fan but I keep seeing reviews and articles pop up about him being a total cuck. The most recent example of this is of course the 'Peter Parker Soy Face'. If you google that you'll see a bunch of articles that will likely go into more details.

XerxesTWD

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2018, 01:14:05 PM »
What storyline are you referencing that had Parker as a wimp?

I'm no Spidey fan but I keep seeing reviews and articles pop up about him being a total cuck. The most recent example of this is of course the 'Peter Parker Soy Face'. If you google that you'll see a bunch of articles that will likely go into more details.
It sounds like a pile of whiny bullshit.

"He's a total cuck now!"


Are there actual specific examples or is it just grasping at straws to build on the justified Mary Sue complaints?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 01:16:04 PM by XerxesTWD »

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #83 on: June 08, 2018, 01:16:05 PM »
I googled it and found one dude complaining about a bad drawing and saying it's an attack on traditional masculinity for some reason. That led me to another article that lead me to the same guy complaining about Dan Slott, Silk, Superior Spider-Man, and how Dan Slott is an SJW.

Rufio

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #84 on: June 08, 2018, 03:12:26 PM »
Slott portrays him as Mockingbird’s whiny sidekick. She’s aggressive and constantly brings up trivial gender politics. He’s subordinate. It’s not a pairing of equals.

XerxesTWD

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #85 on: June 08, 2018, 03:28:42 PM »
Slott portrays him as Mockingbird’s whiny sidekick. She’s aggressive and constantly brings up trivial gender politics. He’s subordinate. It’s not a pairing of equals.
Citation needed.

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #86 on: June 08, 2018, 03:37:19 PM »
Yeah I read all of Slotts run and MB treated him like a lot of special agent types and I never felt he was playing second fiddle to her. Plus this is in great contrast to how Silver Sable treated him as a great honorable man she trusted.

Upper_Krust

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2018, 09:36:06 AM »
It sounds like a pile of whiny bullshit.

"He's a total cuck now!"

You know what's really telling though...

Xerxes: "Are you going to be OK?"
Xerxes: "You seem more upset than the people whining about white males in comics."
Xerxes: "You really do seem like you're taking all of this pretty hard."


...and then within a few hours there are 15 downvotes/smites on my profile, lol.

I think we know WHO the real upset whiners 'taking it hard' are around here.  ;D

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Are there actual specific examples or is it just grasping at straws to build on the justified Mary Sue complaints?

1. As I said, I'm no great Spidey fan (you want a discussion on how Thor's been emasculated I'm good to go now), but I could probably research a few specific examples for you if no Spidey fans in this thread chime in within a few days.

2. I like how someone who doesn't respond to specific points themselves (ie. YOU) is now asking for specific examples, a little hypocritical don't you think?

XerxesTWD

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2018, 02:20:55 PM »
If I were going to "smite" you there would be a few thousand. Good thing you're keeping track of points that mean absolutely nothing though. If your feelings are hurt because somebody else smote you, feel free to report it to the mod of this forum. I think it's AP.

You don't seem to actually know what hypocrisy is.

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Comicsgate
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2018, 08:19:16 PM »
It sounds like a pile of whiny bullshit.

"He's a total cuck now!"

You know what's really telling though...

Xerxes: "Are you going to be OK?"
Xerxes: "You seem more upset than the people whining about white males in comics."
Xerxes: "You really do seem like you're taking all of this pretty hard."


...and then within a few hours there are 15 downvotes/smites on my profile, lol.

I think we know WHO the real upset whiners 'taking it hard' are around here.  ;D

Quote
Are there actual specific examples or is it just grasping at straws to build on the justified Mary Sue complaints?

1. As I said, I'm no great Spidey fan (you want a discussion on how Thor's been emasculated I'm good to go now), but I could probably research a few specific examples for you if no Spidey fans in this thread chime in within a few days.

2. I like how someone who doesn't respond to specific points themselves (ie. YOU) is now asking for specific examples, a little hypocritical don't you think?

I'm a huge Spider-Man fan. Peter Parker and Kyle Rayner are my two  favorite characters. I'm not really sure where the complaints are coming from.