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Silver Surfer VS Orion

fangirl101

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2018, 10:25:09 AM »
If you're going down that route, you might as well abandon any pretense of knowing how Orion would perform against the Surfer, since you'd have no way to predict what sort of manifestation of Orion would show up on the day.

I went that route because we know for sure all of the New Gods got more powerful over time due their nature.  The Hunger suggest this happened far in the past. Orion fought the Infinity man, who would be at the shot out of Silver Surfer for an extended period and not even Superman dates enter the fight.

You already scuppered yourself with your manifestation argument. If Orion's power level fluctuates wildly from one appearance to another, then the manifestation the Surfer fought could potentially have been stronger than or equal to the one that defeated Superman.
That is dumb. Since Superman trumped Thor, who Surfer has never been able to. While Orion has trumped Superman Several times. Ergo, Orion is more powerful than Surfer. Orion>=Superman>Thor>=Surfer.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2018, 10:25:53 AM »
It still is not WM.

Does it matter? I could be wrong, but I'm not convinced Warrior's Madness is a super power, per se. My impression is that it's just a berserker rage, like the kind Wolverine surrenders to on occasion. It provides a significant boost to an individual's strength and endurance, simply because madness and rage are themselves a source of strength, and when you combine the two, it's a potent cocktail, akin to being on a drug like PCP. Madman strength is quite a well known trope in fiction: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerBornOfMadness

In terms of Thor's strength then, the madness he was afflicted with in Blood & Thunder might as well have been true Warrior's Madness in my view. The key distinction in story terms was not the level of strength Thor gained from it, but the fact that the madness was the result of Odin tampering with Thor's psyche over the years, rather than Thor surrendering to a berserker rage of his own volition.

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2018, 10:47:15 AM »
Again, it is like one poster arguing that aspartame is real sugar.

No, it’s like one poster arguing that aspartame is not sweet because it’s not real sugar.

That's the dumbest analogy I've read here since the Baleman being equal to Cap. Kudos for nearly topping it.

The dumbest analogy was the the one about proving aspartame being real sugar since no one stated that this is true WM.  You just pulled that out of your ass. 

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2018, 10:47:53 AM »
You already scuppered yourself with your manifestation argument. If Orion's power level fluctuates wildly from one appearance to another, then the manifestation the Surfer fought could potentially have been stronger than or equal to the one that defeated Superman.

That is dumb. Since Superman trumped Thor, who Surfer has never been able to. While Orion has trumped Superman Several times. Ergo, Orion is more powerful than Surfer. Orion>=Superman>Thor>=Surfer.

You're proposing definitive rankings using cherry picked, one-off battles. The following hierarchy works as well in those terms.

Surfer > Quasar > Venom > Superman ≈ Orion


It's also laughable, thus refuting the validity of such simplistically constructed hierarchies. The reality is Morrison's manifestation premise actually applies to all characters in a way, as virtually all superpowered characters operate at different levels under different writers. Morrison just made it officially true, per the New Gods, but it's always been unofficially true anyway. Therefore, the result of any one-off battle can never be taken as a definitive indication of what all writers (or even most, necessarily) think.

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2018, 10:49:56 AM »
It still is not WM.

Does it matter? I could be wrong, but I'm not convinced Warrior's Madness is a super power, per se. My impression is that it's just a berserker rage, like the kind Wolverine surrenders to on occasion. It provides a significant boost to an individual's strength and endurance, simply because madness and rage are themselves a source of strength, and when you combine the two, it's a potent cocktail, akin to being on a drug like PCP. Madman strength is quite a well known trope in fiction: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerBornOfMadness

In terms of Thor's strength then, the madness he was afflicted with in Blood & Thunder might as well have been true Warrior's Madness in my view. The key distinction in story terms was not the level of strength Thor gained from it, but the fact that the madness was the result of Odin tampering with Thor's psyche over the years, rather than Thor surrendering to a berserker rage of his own volition.

Bingo!  Now you will get an analogy implying that you said that B&T Thor is in true WM.

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2018, 10:50:46 AM »
You already scuppered yourself with your manifestation argument. If Orion's power level fluctuates wildly from one appearance to another, then the manifestation the Surfer fought could potentially have been stronger than or equal to the one that defeated Superman.

That is dumb. Since Superman trumped Thor, who Surfer has never been able to. While Orion has trumped Superman Several times. Ergo, Orion is more powerful than Surfer. Orion>=Superman>Thor>=Surfer.

You're proposing definitive rankings using cherry picked, one-off battles. The following hierarchy works as well in those terms.

Surfer > Quasar > Venom > Superman ≈ Orion


It's also laughable, thus refuting the validity of such simplistically constructed hierarchies. The reality is Morrison's manifestation premise actually applies to all characters in a way, as virtually all superpowered characters operate at different levels under different writers. Morrison just made it officially true, per the New Gods, but it's always been unofficially true anyway. Therefore, the result of any one-off battle can never be taken as a definitive indication of what all writers (or even most, necessarily) think.
a fail. Since Only JLA Avenegers is canon.

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2018, 10:52:35 AM »
If we go by the actual fight that saw print, Surfer wins. If we put that to one side for the sake of argument though, then I'd say they're pretty evenly matched.

While I regard Thor and Orion as peers, Thor's only wins against the Surfer happened during Blood & Thunder, when he was going all-out and the Surfer likely wasn't. When they fought more recently, they looked pretty even. The Surfer also defeated Beta Ray Bill decisively, and was said to be the most powerful of a group including Bill and Gladiator in another story.
Surfer straight up said that he wasn't holding back against Thor in SS 86 and lost.
I've seen lots of characters say they aren't holding back and then lose. Were they holding back still and lying or were they giving it everything they had and lost?
So Surfer said that for nothing, eh?
That's what I'm asking YOU.

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2018, 11:34:46 AM »
You're proposing definitive rankings using cherry picked, one-off battles. The following hierarchy works as well in those terms.

Surfer > Quasar > Venom > Superman ≈ Orion


It's also laughable, thus refuting the validity of such simplistically constructed hierarchies. The reality is Morrison's manifestation premise actually applies to all characters in a way, as virtually all superpowered characters operate at different levels under different writers. Morrison just made it officially true, per the New Gods, but it's always been unofficially true anyway. Therefore, the result of any one-off battle can never be taken as a definitive indication of what all writers (or even most, necessarily) think.

a fail. Since Only JLA Avenegers is canon.

Alright, so this is the third different argument you've attempted, in roughly as many posts.

The first was that Orion manifests at different power levels in different issues (per Morrison's retcon about the nature of New Gods), implying that the Orion that lost to the Surfer must been a weak manifestation. I pointed out that if Orion's power level is so random and inconsistent, you really have no way of predicting how he'd fare against the Surfer now.

You quickly abandoned that line of reasoning for your second argument, which is that the Darkseid/Galactus crossover was set a long time ago, and that Orion has grown more powerful since then. The problem is, this line of reasoning is undermined by your initial argument, which suggests that Orion's power level is wildly inconsistent. The only way to untangle the two is to essentially disown the first argument completely, but since it was you who brought it up in the first place, you basically boxed yourself in with that.

Now we're onto your third argument, which is that JLA/Avengers is the only canon crossover, which would make Darkseid/Galactus non-canon, and raises the question of why you bothered with the previous two arguments if you weren't accepting Darkseid/Galactus as a valid reference in the first place.

Also, the idea that JLA/Avengers is the only canon crossover is somewhat questionable, considering that the DC/Marvel crossovers from the '90s were referenced in mainstream DC comics. That said, I don't believe any of these crossovers -- including JLA/Avengers -- were referenced in any 616 Marvel issues (I'm discounting a non-canon issue Marvel Adventures or whatever it was, where the 'Brothers' from the Access crossovers made a cameo appearance). So you could make the argument that while some DC characters may have fought alternate reality counterparts of certain Marvel characters (equivalent to those you'd see in a What If...?) per their own canon, they've never faced the 616 versions per Marvel's canon.

fangirl101

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2018, 12:00:24 PM »
You're proposing definitive rankings using cherry picked, one-off battles. The following hierarchy works as well in those terms.

Surfer > Quasar > Venom > Superman ≈ Orion


It's also laughable, thus refuting the validity of such simplistically constructed hierarchies. The reality is Morrison's manifestation premise actually applies to all characters in a way, as virtually all superpowered characters operate at different levels under different writers. Morrison just made it officially true, per the New Gods, but it's always been unofficially true anyway. Therefore, the result of any one-off battle can never be taken as a definitive indication of what all writers (or even most, necessarily) think.

a fail. Since Only JLA Avenegers is canon.

Alright, so this is the third different argument you've attempted, in roughly as many posts.

The first was that Orion manifests at different power levels in different issues (per Morrison's retcon about the nature of New Gods), implying that the Orion that lost to the Surfer must been a weak manifestation. I pointed out that if Orion's power level is so random and inconsistent, you really have no way of predicting how he'd fare against the Surfer now.

You quickly abandoned that line of reasoning for your second argument, which is that the Darkseid/Galactus crossover was set a long time ago, and that Orion has grown more powerful since then. The problem is, this line of reasoning is undermined by your initial argument, which suggests that Orion's power level is wildly inconsistent. The only way to untangle the two is to essentially disown the first argument completely, but since it was you who brought it up in the first place, you basically boxed yourself in with that.

Now we're onto your third argument, which is that JLA/Avengers is the only canon crossover, which would make Darkseid/Galactus non-canon, and raises the question of why you bothered with the previous two arguments if you weren't accepting Darkseid/Galactus as a valid reference in the first place.

Also, the idea that JLA/Avengers is the only canon crossover is somewhat questionable, considering that the DC/Marvel crossovers from the '90s were referenced in mainstream DC comics. That said, I don't believe any of these crossovers -- including JLA/Avengers -- were referenced in any 616 Marvel issues (I'm discounting a non-canon issue Marvel Adventures or whatever it was, where the 'Brothers' from the Access crossovers made a cameo appearance). So you could make the argument that while some DC characters may have fought alternate reality counterparts of certain Marvel characters (equivalent to those you'd see in a What If...?) per their own canon, they've never faced the 616 versions per Marvel's canon.

Everything is canon yo the LT and Marvel handbooks referenced Monica copyimg Greenlanterns rinh. My argument about the Hunger was only brought up as a rebuttal to someone who referenced it. Wasn't my argument in the first place.

Abhilegend

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2018, 12:14:40 PM »
I think what the Surfer meant there is that he was no longer going to pull his punches against Thor, as he'd presumably been doing up to that point. But there's a difference between taking off the kid gloves, and truly going all-out, especially when we're talking about the kind of all-out that's fueled by insanity. Thor's strength was fueled by his madness, and the Surfer had no such madness to draw on.

Any proof of this BS you are peddling? Surfer straight up said that he was done holding back.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111186194/4675372-thorvssilversurfer07.jpg

I don't think anyone's denied that the Surfer said he'd held back long enough. I just pointed out that there's a difference between that and being in a berserker rage. You're not going to start ignoring my actual points and grasping at strawmen now, are you? Because that's always a clear sign you're losing the argument.


What's the difference between "Done holding back" and going all out Shuruku? Do you need to go berserk to go all out now?

Don't need your BS. Just give the answer.
Quote


Also Thor was only in an adrenaline rush the whole time, he wasn't "fueled by madness".

Beta Ray Bill said Thor drew strength from his madness in the same issue your scan came from. Did I really need to remind you of that?

http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Silver-Surfer-1987/Issue-86?id=11807#19
Funny that when you refute the statement of Surfer claiming its not the same as going all out.

But no, it wasn't "fueled by madness". Bill was mistaken in believing Thor was under Warrior Madness and that was explicitly shown as wrong. Hence that statement can't be taken on face value.

Do I have to remind you of that?

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2018, 12:16:50 PM »
If we go by the actual fight that saw print, Surfer wins. If we put that to one side for the sake of argument though, then I'd say they're pretty evenly matched.

While I regard Thor and Orion as peers, Thor's only wins against the Surfer happened during Blood & Thunder, when he was going all-out and the Surfer likely wasn't. When they fought more recently, they looked pretty even. The Surfer also defeated Beta Ray Bill decisively, and was said to be the most powerful of a group including Bill and Gladiator in another story.
Surfer straight up said that he wasn't holding back against Thor in SS 86 and lost.
I've seen lots of characters say they aren't holding back and then lose. Were they holding back still and lying or were they giving it everything they had and lost?
So Surfer said that for nothing, eh?
That's what I'm asking YOU.
What for? I didn't write the comic. I'm just showing what is written in the comic.

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2018, 12:21:36 PM »
You already scuppered yourself with your manifestation argument. If Orion's power level fluctuates wildly from one appearance to another, then the manifestation the Surfer fought could potentially have been stronger than or equal to the one that defeated Superman.

That is dumb. Since Superman trumped Thor, who Surfer has never been able to. While Orion has trumped Superman Several times. Ergo, Orion is more powerful than Surfer. Orion>=Superman>Thor>=Surfer.

You're proposing definitive rankings using cherry picked, one-off battles. The following hierarchy works as well in those terms.

Surfer > Quasar > Venom > Superman ≈ Orion


It's also laughable, thus refuting the validity of such simplistically constructed hierarchies. The reality is Morrison's manifestation premise actually applies to all characters in a way, as virtually all superpowered characters operate at different levels under different writers. Morrison just made it officially true, per the New Gods, but it's always been unofficially true anyway. Therefore, the result of any one-off battle can never be taken as a definitive indication of what all writers (or even most, necessarily) think.
Are you trying to say Superman<Venom is a consistent showing for Superman or an outlier? Because then it should be Venom>Superman>Cyborg Superman~Silver Surfer because under the same writer Cyborg Superman was shown a peer to Silver Surfer while Superman blatantly stomped Cyborg.

Under one writer the characters are consistent, right? Why are you taking different writers in one criteria but different in other?

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2018, 12:27:11 PM »
You're proposing definitive rankings using cherry picked, one-off battles. The following hierarchy works as well in those terms.

Surfer > Quasar > Venom > Superman ≈ Orion


It's also laughable, thus refuting the validity of such simplistically constructed hierarchies. The reality is Morrison's manifestation premise actually applies to all characters in a way, as virtually all superpowered characters operate at different levels under different writers. Morrison just made it officially true, per the New Gods, but it's always been unofficially true anyway. Therefore, the result of any one-off battle can never be taken as a definitive indication of what all writers (or even most, necessarily) think.

a fail. Since Only JLA Avenegers is canon.

Alright, so this is the third different argument you've attempted, in roughly as many posts.

The first was that Orion manifests at different power levels in different issues (per Morrison's retcon about the nature of New Gods), implying that the Orion that lost to the Surfer must been a weak manifestation. I pointed out that if Orion's power level is so random and inconsistent, you really have no way of predicting how he'd fare against the Surfer now.

You quickly abandoned that line of reasoning for your second argument, which is that the Darkseid/Galactus crossover was set a long time ago, and that Orion has grown more powerful since then. The problem is, this line of reasoning is undermined by your initial argument, which suggests that Orion's power level is wildly inconsistent. The only way to untangle the two is to essentially disown the first argument completely, but since it was you who brought it up in the first place, you basically boxed yourself in with that.

Now we're onto your third argument, which is that JLA/Avengers is the only canon crossover, which would make Darkseid/Galactus non-canon, and raises the question of why you bothered with the previous two arguments if you weren't accepting Darkseid/Galactus as a valid reference in the first place.

Also, the idea that JLA/Avengers is the only canon crossover is somewhat questionable, considering that the DC/Marvel crossovers from the '90s were referenced in mainstream DC comics. That said, I don't believe any of these crossovers -- including JLA/Avengers -- were referenced in any 616 Marvel issues (I'm discounting a non-canon issue Marvel Adventures or whatever it was, where the 'Brothers' from the Access crossovers made a cameo appearance). So you could make the argument that while some DC characters may have fought alternate reality counterparts of certain Marvel characters (equivalent to those you'd see in a What If...?) per their own canon, they've never faced the 616 versions per Marvel's canon.
But they did. These events are shown in marvel handbooks quite a few times.

Terminus bio.



Photon



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There are a lot more but I think you can understand that. I will give you that much credit.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2018, 05:10:27 PM »
I don't think anyone's denied that the Surfer said he'd held back long enough. I just pointed out that there's a difference between that and being in a berserker rage. You're not going to start ignoring my actual points and grasping at strawmen now, are you? Because that's always a clear sign you're losing the argument.

What's the difference between "Done holding back" and going all out Shuruku? Do you need to go berserk to go all out now?

In a sense, yes. Because anger (like love) is a source of strength, and a sane person can never match the emotional intensity of someone who is insane. To quote Kenshiro, from the classic 1986 The Fist of the North Star movie: "You loved her [Julia] even more than I did, Shin. No one can love or hate with more passion than a madman."

Beta Ray Bill said Thor drew strength from his madness in the same issue your scan came from. Did I really need to remind you of that?

http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Silver-Surfer-1987/Issue-86?id=11807#19

Funny that when you refute the statement of Surfer claiming its not the same as going all out.

I don't dispute what the Surfer actually said; I just interpret it differently than you do.

But no, it wasn't "fueled by madness". Bill was mistaken in believing Thor was under Warrior Madness and that was explicitly shown as wrong. Hence that statement can't be taken on face value.

Do I have to remind you of that?

The fact that it wasn't true Warrior's Madness is beside the point. Bill was correct about Thor drawing strength from his madness. The letters page you yourself posted confirms that:




And it's common sense anyway. Thor's performance in that story clearly wasn't standard for him. Stop being so obtuse.

You're proposing definitive rankings using cherry picked, one-off battles. The following hierarchy works as well in those terms.

Surfer > Quasar > Venom > Superman ≈ Orion


It's also laughable, thus refuting the validity of such simplistically constructed hierarchies. The reality is Morrison's manifestation premise actually applies to all characters in a way, as virtually all superpowered characters operate at different levels under different writers. Morrison just made it officially true, per the New Gods, but it's always been unofficially true anyway. Therefore, the result of any one-off battle can never be taken as a definitive indication of what all writers (or even most, necessarily) think.

Are you trying to say Superman<Venom is a consistent showing for Superman or an outlier? Because then it should be Venom>Superman>Cyborg Superman~Silver Surfer because under the same writer Cyborg Superman was shown a peer to Silver Surfer while Superman blatantly stomped Cyborg.

Obviously, the Superman/Venom fight was an outlier (a fucking huge one). But any fight can be argued to be unrepresentative of the norm, the Superman/Thor fight included. Other writers have already come out and disputed the way that fight was written, or otherwise said that Thor would beat Superman. Just because it's less of an outlier than the Venom fight doesn't put it beyond criticism.

Under one writer the characters are consistent, right? Why are you taking different writers in one criteria but different in other?

Sorry, I have no idea what you're babbling about here.

Alright, so this is the third different argument you've attempted, in roughly as many posts.

The first was that Orion manifests at different power levels in different issues (per Morrison's retcon about the nature of New Gods), implying that the Orion that lost to the Surfer must been a weak manifestation. I pointed out that if Orion's power level is so random and inconsistent, you really have no way of predicting how he'd fare against the Surfer now.

You quickly abandoned that line of reasoning for your second argument, which is that the Darkseid/Galactus crossover was set a long time ago, and that Orion has grown more powerful since then. The problem is, this line of reasoning is undermined by your initial argument, which suggests that Orion's power level is wildly inconsistent. The only way to untangle the two is to essentially disown the first argument completely, but since it was you who brought it up in the first place, you basically boxed yourself in with that.

Now we're onto your third argument, which is that JLA/Avengers is the only canon crossover, which would make Darkseid/Galactus non-canon, and raises the question of why you bothered with the previous two arguments if you weren't accepting Darkseid/Galactus as a valid reference in the first place.

Also, the idea that JLA/Avengers is the only canon crossover is somewhat questionable, considering that the DC/Marvel crossovers from the '90s were referenced in mainstream DC comics. That said, I don't believe any of these crossovers -- including JLA/Avengers -- were referenced in any 616 Marvel issues (I'm discounting a non-canon issue Marvel Adventures or whatever it was, where the 'Brothers' from the Access crossovers made a cameo appearance). So you could make the argument that while some DC characters may have fought alternate reality counterparts of certain Marvel characters (equivalent to those you'd see in a What If...?) per their own canon, they've never faced the 616 versions per Marvel's canon.

But they did. These events are shown in marvel handbooks quite a few times.

Terminus bio.



Photon



Grandmaster



There are a lot more but I think you can understand that. I will give you that much credit.

The Handbooks themselves aren't canon, and they get things wrong sometimes, or just make shit up. Do you have any in-story references? Because actual stories are the best kind of reference material.

fangirl101

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Re: Silver Surfer VS Orion
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2018, 05:36:02 PM »
I don't think anyone's denied that the Surfer said he'd held back long enough. I just pointed out that there's a difference between that and being in a berserker rage. You're not going to start ignoring my actual points and grasping at strawmen now, are you? Because that's always a clear sign you're losing the argument.

What's the difference between "Done holding back" and going all out Shuruku? Do you need to go berserk to go all out now?

In a sense, yes. Because anger (like love) is a source of strength, and a sane person can never match the emotional intensity of someone who is insane. To quote Kenshiro, from the classic 1986 The Fist of the North Star movie: "You loved her [Julia] even more than I did, Shin. No one can love or hate with more passion than a madman."

Beta Ray Bill said Thor drew strength from his madness in the same issue your scan came from. Did I really need to remind you of that?

http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Silver-Surfer-1987/Issue-86?id=11807#19

Funny that when you refute the statement of Surfer claiming its not the same as going all out.

I don't dispute what the Surfer actually said; I just interpret it differently than you do.

But no, it wasn't "fueled by madness". Bill was mistaken in believing Thor was under Warrior Madness and that was explicitly shown as wrong. Hence that statement can't be taken on face value.

Do I have to remind you of that?

The fact that it wasn't true Warrior's Madness is beside the point. Bill was correct about Thor drawing strength from his madness. The letters page you yourself posted confirms that:




And it's common sense anyway. Thor's performance in that story clearly wasn't standard for him. Stop being so obtuse.

You're proposing definitive rankings using cherry picked, one-off battles. The following hierarchy works as well in those terms.

Surfer > Quasar > Venom > Superman ≈ Orion


It's also laughable, thus refuting the validity of such simplistically constructed hierarchies. The reality is Morrison's manifestation premise actually applies to all characters in a way, as virtually all superpowered characters operate at different levels under different writers. Morrison just made it officially true, per the New Gods, but it's always been unofficially true anyway. Therefore, the result of any one-off battle can never be taken as a definitive indication of what all writers (or even most, necessarily) think.

Are you trying to say Superman<Venom is a consistent showing for Superman or an outlier? Because then it should be Venom>Superman>Cyborg Superman~Silver Surfer because under the same writer Cyborg Superman was shown a peer to Silver Surfer while Superman blatantly stomped Cyborg.

Obviously, the Superman/Venom fight was an outlier (a fucking huge one). But any fight can be argued to be unrepresentative of the norm, the Superman/Thor fight included. Other writers have already come out and disputed the way that fight was written, or otherwise said that Thor would beat Superman. Just because it's less of an outlier than the Venom fight doesn't put it beyond criticism.

Under one writer the characters are consistent, right? Why are you taking different writers in one criteria but different in other?

Sorry, I have no idea what you're babbling about here.

Alright, so this is the third different argument you've attempted, in roughly as many posts.

The first was that Orion manifests at different power levels in different issues (per Morrison's retcon about the nature of New Gods), implying that the Orion that lost to the Surfer must been a weak manifestation. I pointed out that if Orion's power level is so random and inconsistent, you really have no way of predicting how he'd fare against the Surfer now.

You quickly abandoned that line of reasoning for your second argument, which is that the Darkseid/Galactus crossover was set a long time ago, and that Orion has grown more powerful since then. The problem is, this line of reasoning is undermined by your initial argument, which suggests that Orion's power level is wildly inconsistent. The only way to untangle the two is to essentially disown the first argument completely, but since it was you who brought it up in the first place, you basically boxed yourself in with that.

Now we're onto your third argument, which is that JLA/Avengers is the only canon crossover, which would make Darkseid/Galactus non-canon, and raises the question of why you bothered with the previous two arguments if you weren't accepting Darkseid/Galactus as a valid reference in the first place.

Also, the idea that JLA/Avengers is the only canon crossover is somewhat questionable, considering that the DC/Marvel crossovers from the '90s were referenced in mainstream DC comics. That said, I don't believe any of these crossovers -- including JLA/Avengers -- were referenced in any 616 Marvel issues (I'm discounting a non-canon issue Marvel Adventures or whatever it was, where the 'Brothers' from the Access crossovers made a cameo appearance). So you could make the argument that while some DC characters may have fought alternate reality counterparts of certain Marvel characters (equivalent to those you'd see in a What If...?) per their own canon, they've never faced the 616 versions per Marvel's canon.

But they did. These events are shown in marvel handbooks quite a few times.

Terminus bio.



Photon



Grandmaster



There are a lot more but I think you can understand that. I will give you that much credit.

The Handbooks themselves aren't canon, and they get things wrong sometimes, or just make shit up. Do you have any in-story references? Because actual stories are the best kind of reference material.
The hand books are canon. Eye. especially when they reference shot from actual comics.