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Waid says no such thing as magic...

Gree

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Waid says no such thing as magic...
« on: February 22, 2018, 03:00:41 PM »
This didn’t get much play at ICT but...

Waid basically tries to science away Mjolnir, essentially saying the Asgardians aren’t magical...not a fan of the MCU/Syfy take on Thor

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/02/07/mark-waid-explains-thor-lift-mjolnir/

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2018, 03:38:11 PM »
He didn't say that at all. He just gave an explanation on what the enchantment does. The enchantment is still an enchantment.

Gree

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Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2018, 03:41:19 PM »
Sure he does, read it again.

He explicitly mentions inertrons and physics, and how Uru and dwarven blacksmiths have the ability to manipulate them. That’s not magic, or an enchantment, that’s a scientific explanation for an intrinsic property of the metal. He cites one story referencing science explaining Mjolnir in a Hulk issue.m

Magic would just say that it’s enchanted to not be lifted and that’s that unless thy are worthy. Using physics drastically deviates from the general concept of magic.

MTL76

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Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2018, 03:56:36 PM »
Even if he did, it’s a theory that was stated in the equivalent of a letters column, and one that will most likely never be mentioned by another writer.


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Gree

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Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2018, 04:00:56 PM »
Kills me, deep

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2018, 04:01:27 PM »
Sure he does, read it again.

He explicitly mentions inertrons and physics, and how Uru and dwarven blacksmiths have the ability to manipulate them. That’s not magic, or an enchantment, that’s a scientific explanation for an intrinsic property of the metal. He cites one story referencing science explaining Mjolnir in a Hulk issue.m

Magic would just say that it’s enchanted to not be lifted and that’s that unless thy are worthy. Using physics drastically deviates from the general concept of magic.
You're looking at the quote by Professor Jim Kakalios which is specifically giving a scientific explanation for the scene from Age of Ultron. Waid liked the idea and incorporated part of it.

Waid's quote just says the the uru metal "can be induced to emit gravitons" Which can be turned on an off "If a person whom the hammer has determined to be unworthy attempts to lift the hammer". That on off switch is still "thanks to Odin’s enchantment."

And even the most scientific part of that explanation, the metal giving off gravitons, can still be caused by a magical property of the metal.

And even when he talked about it in comics he had Banner, a scientist, give a scientific explanation, then say it also can just be straight up magic.

Gree

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Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2018, 04:16:13 PM »
Yea, it does say that in the comic, but it’s more of an off handed comment.


 I don’t think you are getting it my friend. Saying it magically induces gravitrons is kind of contradictory. It’s inserting a scientific explanation where there does not need to be one. Thor’s Hammer can not be wielded by someone who isn’t worthy because Odin enchanted it to be so, and he’s an immensely powerful mage. That’s it. As soon as you start inserting a scientific explanation it kind of defeats the purpose of magic. Saying that “magic” turns on the gravitrons is kind of ludicrous from a magical perspective, when the point of magic originally in Marvel was to operate outside the bounds of science. He even describes the Asgardians as more scientifically advanced then us, and the dwarves as advanced in creating things that are *like magic
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 04:24:39 PM by Gree »

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2018, 04:21:37 PM »
I disagree. If Dr. Strange creates a fire using a spell that doesn't mean he didn't use magic because the fire has normal scientific properties.

Gree

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Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2018, 04:23:55 PM »
That’s not quite it either

Gree

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Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2018, 04:26:52 PM »
I disagree. If Dr. Strange creates a fire using a spell that doesn't mean he didn't use magic because the fire has normal scientific properties.

It’s more akin to someone saying that Dr. Stranges magic fire spell occurs because it subatomically transmutes the air into oxygen and phosphorus causing a flame. As opposed to Dr Stranges spell just created fire, that burns like normal. Now there are spells that create regular fire, and there’s is magical fire as well which is a totally different topic

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2018, 05:11:19 PM »
But if the spell caused the potential energy in a piece of wood to turn into kinetic energy he would have still used magic to create a natural effect just like odins enchantment controls the property of the uru metal.

The main point though, is that waid never said magic doesn't exist.

Gree

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Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2018, 05:44:21 PM »
Again, that is different. I’m not sure what you are missing here. In your example magic is converting potential energy into kinetic energy starting a fire, that is fine. That’s not what Waid is saying here.


Obviously he didn’t directly say it but when he says that’s Dwarves are doing things “like magic” and using gravity and physics to explain the worthiness enchantment does that say magic to you? And he’s attributing it’s abilities to a unique scientific characteristic of Uru, as opposed to uru being very durable and holding enchantments well.

The main point is that I’m not sure you or Waid fundamentally understand that magic does not equal science, and doesn’t require an explanation, that is its purpose.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 05:51:12 PM by Gree »

Riv1

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Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2018, 05:52:54 PM »
I disagree. If Dr. Strange creates a fire using a spell that doesn't mean he didn't use magic because the fire has normal scientific properties.
Prettt much.
Its just an interesting mental exercise.
Fiction of all types have been doing it forever.
Catch a vampire/werewolf, etc. explain the curse in science terms, shit like that.

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NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2018, 07:21:27 PM »
Again, that is different. I’m not sure what you are missing here. In your example magic is converting potential energy into kinetic energy starting a fire, that is fine. That’s not what Waid is saying here.


Obviously he didn’t directly say it but when he says that’s Dwarves are doing things “like magic” and using gravity and physics to explain the worthiness enchantment does that say magic to you? And he’s attributing it’s abilities to a unique scientific characteristic of Uru, as opposed to uru being very durable and holding enchantments well.

The main point is that I’m not sure you or Waid fundamentally understand that magic does not equal science, and doesn’t require an explanation, that is its purpose.

He never uses gravity and physics to explain the worthiness enchantment though. Just the property of the of the uru metal. He says the enchantment controls the flow of graviton particles is the same thing as controlling pontential energy.

Gree

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Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2018, 07:40:53 PM »
The concept of Odin enchanting gravity into the hammer making it difficult to lift is ridiculous, I do not know how you don’t see the big difference here