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Mangog Punchometer shit

Jonathanos

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #165 on: March 11, 2018, 10:45:44 PM »
It doesn't matter if it's illogical.
 

It does matter.

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A high percentage of things we see in comics are illogical. 

Like what? Most stuff is pretty logical or explained somewhere along the line as having to do with cosmic particles or magic or x-genes.

Hulk jumping is logical. But saying that he Jumps faster than he runs isn't.

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It's comic fact and you don't get to rewrite it because you don't like it.

I'm not trying to rewrite it, simply pointing out the illogicality of it.

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Well, there's an ironic statement if ever there was one.

But no, I don't disagree with the comics on the basis of my personal feelings.

Where we disagree is I think logic trumps comic showings for the purpose of anything battle-board related...although the Hulk case isn't even a 'showing', its simply a 'non-showing'.

Sorry, your feelings still don't matter.  I said the Hulk can jump faster than he can run and have provided evidence from the comics.  That's how a debate works. 

You say I'm wrong on this point?  Then provide evidence from the comics to support your position.  If you can't (and you can't) then just concede the point already.

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The class system was invented for the Handbook.  If you want to apply it to the comics, you have to disregard the weight limits that the Handbook lists for the classes.  There is no Class 30,000 as you seem to be suggesting for Thing just as there is no Class 150,000,000,000.  At best, we can use the class system as a rough guide for how characters compare.  (Even then there are issues.  Sasquatch listed as Class 70...?)

Class 100 > Class 85 >>> Class 10.  How much a representative of each class can lift will vary from story to story but it'll always be true that a Class 85 is far stronger than a Class 10.

This is something that everyone on this site-- except you, apparently-- understands.

I understand the value of distinct tiers irrespective of accurate tonnage measurements.

But the problem with the Class System (at least below Class 100) is that it caps that character to the next Class in this case Class 85 Thing cannot (per the handbook) lift 95 Tons (per Class 95). Thus we have MULTIPLE contradictions within the comics of Thing lifting THOUSANDS of tons.

You say you understand it in one breath and then immediately prove you don't.

"The class system was invented for the Handbook.  If you want to apply it to the comics, you have to disregard the weight limits that the Handbook lists for the classes."
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Upper_Krust

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #166 on: March 13, 2018, 07:06:46 PM »
Sorry, your feelings still don't matter.


I agree, but we are not debating my feelings, simply logic.

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I said the Hulk can jump faster than he can run and have provided evidence from the comics.  That's how a debate works.


You proved that he (for some reason*) doesn't run faster than he can jump on most occasions. You haven't proved he cannot, Cap's dialogue on the matter is speculative.

*Which is NEVER explained.

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You say I'm wrong on this point?  Then provide evidence from the comics to support your position.  If you can't (and you can't) then just concede the point already.

My point is that its impossible to jump faster than you can run.

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You say you understand it in one breath and then immediately prove you don't.

The problem with it is that they assign a tonnage to it...a tonnage THEY KNOW is completely wrong. But maybe I am just being too hard on them for that and they would just run out of Descriptive terms for the Classes. Its not that big a deal anyway.

Jonathanos

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #167 on: March 13, 2018, 09:45:04 PM »
Sorry, your feelings still don't matter.


I agree, but we are not debating my feelings, simply logic.

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I said the Hulk can jump faster than he can run and have provided evidence from the comics.  That's how a debate works.


You proved that he (for some reason*) doesn't run faster than he can jump on most occasions. You haven't proved he cannot, Cap's dialogue on the matter is speculative.

*Which is NEVER explained.

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You say I'm wrong on this point?  Then provide evidence from the comics to support your position.  If you can't (and you can't) then just concede the point already.

My point is that its impossible to jump faster than you can run.

So no evidence to support your position then?  Just insistence that you're right in the face of multiple references?

I'll try and conceal my surprise.

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You say you understand it in one breath and then immediately prove you don't.

The problem with it is that they assign a tonnage to it...a tonnage THEY KNOW is completely wrong. But maybe I am just being too hard on them for that and they would just run out of Descriptive terms for the Classes. Its not that big a deal anyway.

The problem is you are being deliberately obtuse.
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Upper_Krust

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #168 on: March 14, 2018, 07:58:22 AM »
So no evidence to support your position then?
 

All of Science.

Purportedly Waid's Hulk run...that you like to ignore as an anomaly.

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Just insistence that you're right in the face of multiple references?

I AM right about the fact no one can jump faster than they can run.

Either it needs some explanation in the comic (to avoid it just being totally stupid) or it should probably be ignored* (since it serves no purpose).

*as arguably Waid did in his run and the Hulk movies certainly do.

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The problem is you are being deliberately obtuse.

I can't even recall how we got on to debating Thing's strength (I suspect you just threw a red herring in there to deflect from the Northstar debate).

- We both agree Thing is not limited to 85 tons and has been shown lifting thousands of tons.
- We both agree there is not enough evidence to infer Thing has dynamic strength (derived from his confidence*) though its an interesting theory.

*Although its weirdly coincidental that Gladiator (who started in the FF comic) does have such a power.

Jonathanos

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #169 on: March 14, 2018, 09:30:41 PM »
So no evidence to support your position then?
 

All of Science.

Much of what happens in comics contradicts real world science.  No matter how strong he is, the Hulk could never lift a mountain in the real world; the stone would break apart when he tried.  Heck, he's listed to weigh half a ton, depending on the source, so he doesn't have the mass to lift a car as easily as the comics show and I've seen him get rammed by a fire truck when he wasn't expecting it and he didn't budge.  Complete nonsense.  So if Hulk can't jump faster than he can run even though the comics say he can, you also must argue the Hulk can't perform many-- if not most-- of the feats of strength we see him perform because #science.

You don't get to give powers to the characters that the comics say they don't have and you don't get to throw out references on the basis of not liking what they show.

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Purportedly Waid's Hulk run...that you like to ignore as an anomaly.

Waid's run makes no comment on leaping speed vs running speed. 

I never ignored Waid's run, either.  I said it's the only run that supports Hulk being able to run at superhuman speed and that run didn't even exist when we first had this discussion.  If it becomes the norm for Hulk to run at superhuman speed, I'll say he can even though I won't like it.

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Just insistence that you're right in the face of multiple references?

I AM right about the fact no one can jump faster than they can run.

Either it needs some explanation in the comic (to avoid it just being totally stupid) or it should probably be ignored* (since it serves no purpose).

*as arguably Waid did in his run and the Hulk movies certainly do.

Hulk can jump faster.  That's what the comics support so you are wrong. 

Alternatively, General Ross, Rick Jones, Hellcat, and others are faster than an ICBM.

Also, it does serve a purpose for Hulk not to be superhumanly fast: It allows writers to craft stories like the Daredevil vs. Hulk fight.  According to you, the Hulk should be faster than DD and the fight should be over immediately with DD not seeing the Hulk move.  But in the comics, where the Hulk doesn't have superhuman speed under most writers, the writer is able to draw out the fight to showcase DD's courage in the face of impossible odds.

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The problem is you are being deliberately obtuse.

I can't even recall how we got on to debating Thing's strength (I suspect you just threw a red herring in there to deflect from the Northstar debate).

It's pretty easy connection to make: The Thing fan wants to ignore a huge amount of evidence that contradicts what he wants to believe is true.

Of course, we've seen you openly admit not only to having no evidence but refuse to do any research because trying to support your position "would be difficult."  Not that it stopped you from continuing to claim you were right even though all evidence said you were wrong.

Tell me again how you're unbiased.

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- We both agree Thing is not limited to 85 tons and has been shown lifting thousands of tons.
- We both agree there is not enough evidence to infer Thing has dynamic strength (derived from his confidence*) though its an interesting theory.

*Although its weirdly coincidental that Gladiator (who started in the FF comic) does have such a power.

Gladiator first appeared in Uncanny X-Men #107.
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Upper_Krust

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #170 on: March 15, 2018, 01:53:03 PM »
Much of what happens in comics contradicts real world science.
 

Probably a lot less than you think. Most of the crazy stuff has an obvious explanation.

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No matter how strong he is, the Hulk could never lift a mountain in the real world; the stone would break apart when he tried.

Agreed. In DC this is explained as tactile telekinesis which is the solution to allow heroes to lift really big items like battleships.

Lifting big objects (like the Pyramids) is cooler and much more of a visual spectacle than lifting it and the whole thing falling to rubble - tactile telekinesis is the explanation.

Hulk walking slower than a regular human had the purpose of giving him a Horror-style Frankenstein vibe. That version of Hulk is no longer relevant however and was never explained anyway.

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Heck, he's listed to weigh half a ton, depending on the source, so he doesn't have the mass to lift a car as easily as the comics show and I've seen him get rammed by a fire truck when he wasn't expecting it and he didn't budge.  Complete nonsense.
 

Characters hit by trucks or whatever should be knocked over unless:

1. They (in some way) slam into the truck - as per Thing in the first (big) FF movie. Even a slight shrug from Hulk should do.
2. The character can fly/hover (like Superman).

As for easily lifting big objects, each panel (generally) only shows a snapshot of an action, so we don't need to see 3-4 actions where the Hulk gets himself under a car to leverage it. Its simply a convenience, not a contradiction (like the Run/Jump thing).

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So if Hulk can't jump faster than he can run even though the comics say he can, you also must argue the Hulk can't perform many-- if not most-- of the feats of strength we see him perform because #science.

I disagree (see above).

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You don't get to give powers to the characters that the comics say they don't have and you don't get to throw out references on the basis of not liking what they show.

Just because Hulk chooses not to run at super-speed, doesn't mean he can't run at super-speed.

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Purportedly Waid's Hulk run...that you like to ignore as an anomaly.

Waid's run makes no comment on leaping speed vs running speed.


But you did say he shows the Hulk running at super-speed.

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I never ignored Waid's run, either.  I said it's the only run that supports Hulk being able to run at superhuman speed and that run didn't even exist when we first had this discussion.  If it becomes the norm for Hulk to run at superhuman speed, I'll say he can even though I won't like it.

I don't understand why you are upset with Hulk running at super-speed?

The alternative is simply stupid and has zero purpose in the modern Marvel Universe.

Do you agree the original intent with Hulk's walking was to give him that sort of Frankenstein-esque vibe?

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Hulk can jump faster.

Something never confirmed. Just because he likes to jump doesn't say he can't run.

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That's what the comics support so you are wrong. 

Alternatively, General Ross, Rick Jones, Hellcat, and others are faster than an ICBM.

Unless Hulk is choosing to walk, otherwise he would have jumped up to Rick in the first place, wouldn't he?

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Also, it does serve a purpose for Hulk not to be superhumanly fast: It allows writers to craft stories like the Daredevil vs. Hulk fight.
 

No it doesn't.

1. Regular humans (and you could argue Daredevil is not exactly 'regular') shouldn't be fighting the Hulk in a fair fight...even Batman doesn't fight Superman without 'bullshits' (Special Suit, Kryptonite etc.).
2. There are thousands of heroes and villains for writers to use without having to make Hulk look like a goofball against Daredevil.
3. Being able to run faster than a normal human doesn't necessarily mean Hulk has speedster-like reflexes.

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According to you, the Hulk should be faster than DD and the fight should be over immediately with DD not seeing the Hulk move.
 

Yes and no.

Who is faster...Usain Bolt or Bruce Lee?  ;D

Just because Hulk can run fast doesn't mean he has superfast reflexes. In fact the very lack of superhuman reflexes might limit Hulk's ability TO run superfast.

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But in the comics, where the Hulk doesn't have superhuman speed under most writers, the writer is able to draw out the fight to showcase DD's courage in the face of impossible odds.

If we forget all of Hulk's powers (ie. what makes him the Hulk in the first place) and totally nerf him I am sure he could have a fun fight with Aunt May if you want. But we both know he just needs to Handclap and normal humans would likely explode or at best (if he's taking it easy) be deafened permanently.

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It's pretty easy connection to make: The Thing fan wants to ignore a huge amount of evidence that contradicts what he wants to believe is true.

He had multiple pieces of evidence showing Thing lifting thousands of tons.

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Of course, we've seen you openly admit not only to having no evidence but refuse to do any research because trying to support your position "would be difficult."  Not that it stopped you from continuing to claim you were right even though all evidence said you were wrong.

If 'research' involves me buying thousands of comics I don't already own then yes I refuse to do it.

If 'research' is me having to read every Hulk appearance in comics then yes it would be 'difficult'.

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Tell me again how you're unbiased.

...because I don't have character bias or company bias, unlike pretty much everyone else on these boards (to various degrees).

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*Although its weirdly coincidental that Gladiator (who started in the FF comic) does have such a power.

Gladiator first appeared in Uncanny X-Men #107.

My mistake (not his*).

*the guy who says Thing has confidence based strength that is.

XerxesTWD

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #171 on: March 15, 2018, 02:19:22 PM »
Wait, is it "Punch-O-Meter" or "Punchometer"(like speedometer or odometer)?

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #172 on: March 15, 2018, 02:43:40 PM »
Wait, is it "Punch-O-Meter" or "Punchometer"(like speedometer or odometer)?


XerxesTWD

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #173 on: March 15, 2018, 03:09:04 PM »
:'(

Jonathanos

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #174 on: March 15, 2018, 09:14:58 PM »
I showed the Hulk running and UK keeps saying he was walking.

Floating rocks and transference of motion.
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Upper_Krust

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #175 on: March 16, 2018, 09:17:18 AM »
I showed the Hulk running and UK keeps saying he was walking.

No. My point was that he was choosing to go slower than his maximum because if he really NEEDED to go fast (in that instance) he'd just jump...in fact actually jumping (up the mountain) would have made sense there rather than running.

Jonathanos

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #176 on: March 16, 2018, 10:07:48 AM »
In response to me saying that the Hulk can jump faster than he runs (he can-- comics bear it out) and pointing out the alternative would have General Ross and others running faster than an ICBM, you said:

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Unless Hulk is choosing to walk,

He really wanted to catch General Ross.  He had a lot of trouble doing so.

In Marvel Fanfare #21, Thing was able to stay ahead of Hulk on foot.  Later, Thing uses a car to try and put distance between them.  Hulk jumps and catches the car.

Hulk's leaping speed > Car speed > Thing's running speed > Hulk's running speed.

We have multiple references that put Hulk's leaping speed greater than his running speed.  You saying it doesn't make sense doesn't change that fact.
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Upper_Krust

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #177 on: March 16, 2018, 10:08:35 AM »
Incidentally JT are you reading DC's Damage by any chance? If so what do you think of it (I know its only 2 issues in)?

Upper_Krust

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #178 on: March 16, 2018, 10:19:10 AM »
In response to me saying that the Hulk can jump faster than he runs (he can-- comics bear it out) and pointing out the alternative would have General Ross and others running faster than an ICBM, you said:

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Unless Hulk is choosing to walk,

He really wanted to catch General Ross.  He had a lot of trouble doing so.

In Marvel Fanfare #21, Thing was able to stay ahead of Hulk on foot.  Later, Thing uses a car to try and put distance between them.  Hulk jumps and catches the car.

Hulk's leaping speed > Car speed > Thing's running speed > Hulk's running speed.

How did Thing fit in a car, that sounds great. :D

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We have multiple references that put Hulk's leaping speed greater than his running speed.  You saying it doesn't make sense doesn't change that fact.

Sounds like you agree with me that the Rick example (which I'm guessing is the first such example?) didn't make sense. ie. Had Hulk really wanted to catch him he'd just jump.

My best guess is that Stan wanted that sort of Frankenstein vibe and thus needed Hulk to move slower than Rick and subsequent writers didn't want to 'upset the apple cart' and change things until after the Ang Lee movie which inspired Waid to have the Hulk run super-fast.

But the bigger picture is that it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

However, the change doesn't actually necessitate any retcon, without having Super-reflexes Hulk would probably be better served jumping than running fast in most situations.

Jonathanos

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #179 on: March 16, 2018, 08:55:01 PM »
It doesn't matter if you think it makes sense or not; that's what you refuse to accept.  If the majority of the comics show something to be true, then it is.

Going back to you declining to provide references: No one has ever said you need to read every comic or buy thousands more issues.  The problem is that you not only decline to do research because "it would be difficult," you frequently disregard references given to you when they go against what you want to believe to be true.

Battle threads should be debated based on what is in the comics, not what someone thinks should be in the comics.  Otherwise, everyone's debating their own headcanons rather than Character A vs. Character B.

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