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Mangog Punchometer shit

Rufio

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2018, 01:58:32 PM »
UpperKrust,

Have you ever considered that writers sometimes have different styles in terms of the fight details shown on panel?

For example, in Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos and The Silver Surfer just blast at each other for one panel, before they're separated. That's their entire fight. But in a Silver Surfer tie-in, the same fight lasts 2-3 pages, with both of them landing punches and Surfer grabbing Thanos' throat.

It's the same fight.  The only difference is, the Infinity Gauntlet scene gave the reader the Cliffnotes/highlight reel version. The Surfer tie-in added details to the scene.

For another example, in Spider-Man's title, he knocked out Firelord with a speedblitz. It looks like he may've landed many dozens of attacks in a few seconds. In contrast, an Avengers tie-in portrayed the same scene and made it appear that Firelord was KOed by just 4-5 hits from Spider-Man.

How do you interpret these different portrayals of the same two scenes?

I think the obvious answer is that two of the writers were giving the Cliffnotes versions of the scenes.  The other two writers were giving all of the details --- including attacks that some writers would've omitted simply for the sake of writing a concise scene.

In other words, the attacks we see on panel aren't necessarily all the attacks that occurred.  They're just the attacks that the writer felt needed to be showcased.  So Dan Jurgens may've felt like writing shorter fight scenes, while this writer wanted to make Mangog vs War Thor more drawn out.

This is aside from the more obvious point that Thor's "damage soak" (as battleboarders call it) gets played up inconcistently by different writers. Occasionally, he takes sustained beatings from The Hulk or even Zeus (for a month in the latter example)  and isn't quite KOed.  But not all writers portray it that way.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 02:01:13 PM by Rufio »

Bandido

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2018, 05:32:13 PM »
I thought this storyline was cool, and then I learned there was another Thor. Secret Wars was the worst thing to happen to Marvel in a long time.

Commander

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2018, 11:58:51 PM »
Looking at it, Krust doesn't give a crap about tie-ins or re-telling. So if the re-telling has Thor holding back, this gets thrown out due to necessity of using the pinchometer as the real basis. So if the tie-in or re-telling does not have the same scenes AND outcome as the original story, this gets dumped due to not conforming to the pinchometer.

Mightily Oats

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Re: Re: New comic stuff worth talking about but not worth its own thread
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2018, 05:05:21 AM »
Any story that enrages Krusty over his punch-o-meter being ignored by another writer is a story worth being told in my book
100%


Wait, I mean 99.999998%, by the strict and accurate rules of the POM

Abhilegend

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2018, 05:43:04 AM »
Jesus, that's an insane showing for Mangog. And some people were claiming it was his weakest portrayal yet based on the number of punches it took to KO War Thor an issue or two ago...

That's because IT WAS his weakest portrayal yet at 19 punches (arguably for a kill).

This whole business simply shows Aaron and Consistency are strange bedfellows.

Only if you are the type of oddball who judges strength by the amount of punches landed.

Mangog casually shattered a Mjolnir stand-in and was flat-out stated to be stronger than ever while utterly owning a Thor substitute more convincingly than he has managed since the Silver Age. You and Abhi were probably the only people that read that issue and decided that he was weaker than ever.


Cheers.
I didn't say he was weaker. I said he was easier to hurt than before.

Abhilegend

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2018, 05:48:23 AM »
Jesus, that's an insane showing for Mangog. And some people were claiming it was his weakest portrayal yet based on the number of punches it took to KO War Thor an issue or two ago...


Cheers.
This Mangog is easier to hurt than before but his strength showings are better than ever.

Why?

He specifically shrugged off a tactic that was used to beat him previously...
The way Heimdall stabbed him.

Hemidall's big ass magic sword that was enchanted by Odin, can wield cosmic energies, control the BiFrost and has clashed with Mjolnir unscathed?

Mangog isn't slowed down and shatters it easily. Aaron even has Heimdall specifically mention Hofund by name, which hasn't been done in decades.

You're an idiot.
Right, it's not like Heimdall has so many showings of injuring characters at Mangog level.

Oh wait...

Bandido

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2018, 10:08:42 AM »
I didn't say he was weaker. I said he was easier to hurt than before.

There is room for both too. EXP: Peter David's Professor Hulk was stated to be stronger than the Savage Hulk in direct comparisons with the same opponents and was shown to be much easier to damage.

Upper_Krust

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2018, 11:53:28 AM »
UpperKrust,

Have you ever considered that writers sometimes have different styles in terms of the fight details shown on panel?

Its not a matter of style (in this case). Its a matter of consistency and perception.

If I see Mangog take 19 attacks to defeat War Thor but then the Destroyer is wrecked almost instantly then the perception the scene conveys is War Thor > The Destroyer

If I see Heimdall hurt Mangog but then Mangog ignores the Destroyer's Disintigration blast then the perception the scene conveys is that Heimdall's sword > The Destroyer's Disintigration

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For example, in Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos and The Silver Surfer just blast at each other for one panel, before they're separated. That's their entire fight. But in a Silver Surfer tie-in, the same fight lasts 2-3 pages, with both of them landing punches and Surfer grabbing Thanos' throat.

Flawed example.

In both cases the perception and outcome was the same.

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It's the same fight.  The only difference is, the Infinity Gauntlet scene gave the reader the Cliffnotes/highlight reel version. The Surfer tie-in added details to the scene.

Again, the key is the perception and consistency of outcome.

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For another example, in Spider-Man's title, he knocked out Firelord with a speedblitz. It looks like he may've landed many dozens of attacks in a few seconds. In contrast, an Avengers tie-in portrayed the same scene and made it appear that Firelord was KOed by just 4-5 hits from Spider-Man.

A speed-blitz is no different to a single attack.

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How do you interpret these different portrayals of the same two scenes?

As irrelevant for the purposes of our discussion.

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I think the obvious answer is that two of the writers were giving the Cliffnotes versions of the scenes.  The other two writers were giving all of the details --- including attacks that some writers would've omitted simply for the sake of writing a concise scene.

In other words, the attacks we see on panel aren't necessarily all the attacks that occurred.  They're just the attacks that the writer felt needed to be showcased.  So Dan Jurgens may've felt like writing shorter fight scenes, while this writer wanted to make Mangog vs War Thor more drawn out.

You fail to comprehend the value of perception and consistency.

Jurgens kept the fight brief because he understands that 'making short work' of an opponent gives the perception of DOMINANCE. Equally he understood that fights between Thor and Mangog had always been brief so he retained that consistency.

In wrestling parlance this is known as 'The Squash'.

That's why, when WWHulk 'Squashes' Ares and Thing he clearly appears DOMINANT over them.

When WWHulk has more trouble with Hulkbuster Iron Man and Zom Strange we get the impression he's LESS DOMINANT over them, but still wins. In these cases the writer has UPPED the ante.

Against Sentry, things are more evenly matched.

In contrast, Aaron has Mangog take a full issue to overcome the weaker challenge of War Thor, but then when he UPS the ante against the Destroyer the fight is SHOWN LESS of a challenge to Mangog. Its an example of how NOT to write a story.

What he should have done was have the War Thor SQUASH last a page or two, then have the DESTROYER fight last 10 pages (or so) with the Destroyer maybe blowing off Mangog's tail or arm (to retain some 'heat' for the Destroyer) while Mangog's punches continually 'dent' the Destroyer to the point where Mangog can bite it in half or somesuch.

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This is aside from the more obvious point that Thor's "damage soak" (as battleboarders call it) gets played up inconcistently by different writers. Occasionally, he takes sustained beatings from The Hulk or even Zeus (for a month in the latter example)  and isn't quite KOed.  But not all writers portray it that way.

War Thor takes FIVE times the pummeling that incapacitated the previous Thor versus THE WEAKEST incarnation of Mangog.

Contrasted with THE STRONGEST version of Mangog, War Thor takes NINETEEN times the pummeling.

Upper_Krust

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2018, 11:59:41 AM »
Looking at it, Krust doesn't give a crap about tie-ins or re-telling. So if the re-telling has Thor holding back, this gets thrown out due to necessity of using the pinchometer as the real basis. So if the tie-in or re-telling does not have the same scenes AND outcome as the original story, this gets dumped due to not conforming to the pinchometer.

Tie-ins that both yield the same outcome and give the same perception of DOMINANCE (of one character over the other) are fine.

But what we have here are scenes that convey:

1. War Thor is VASTLY more durable than the Destroyer (and indeed Vastly more durable than Ultimate Mjolnir)
2. Heimdall's sword is NOTABLY more powerful than the Destroyer's Disintigration

Commander

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2018, 01:31:03 PM »
So if a tie-in or recollection depicts a character getting stronger as the battle progresses but was not mentioned in the original story, this gets disregarded due to your pinchometer?

Upper_Krust

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2018, 03:37:20 PM »
So if a tie-in or recollection depicts a character getting stronger as the battle progresses but was not mentioned in the original story, this gets disregarded due to your pinchometer?

I don't recall mentioning the Punchometer in these discussions.

The point I have made is that Aaron's writing is inconsistent and portrays:

1. War Thor as more durable than the Destroyer.
2. Heimdall's Sword is more powerful than the Destroyer's Disintegration.

Under no conceivable logic or metric does Aaron's story convey the opposite of these. So its bad storytelling as well as being inconsistent and poor portrayals of certain characters/powers.

Re: Re: New comic stuff worth talking about but not worth its own thread
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2018, 04:07:34 PM »
I disagree, its textbook inconsistency.

Mangog not destroying Ult. Mjolnir with a single punch is not inconsistent with him later destroying it with a dedicated two-handed assault aimed at crushing it.

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By what metric does the Destroyer look tougher than War Thor?

I don't measure comics in metrics.

The weight that is given to Mangog's defeat of the Destroyer is analogous to the weight given to the moment that Mangog destroys Ult. Mjolnir, i.e. both being portrayed as much bigger wtf moments than Mangog casually rolling over War Thor.

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Is War Thor tougher than the Destroyer armour? If not, why was he depicted as such?

War Thor was not depicted as tougher than the Destroyer armour. Counting punches is not a valid way to contrast durability, especially when the majority of one fight takes place off-panel.

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Lets transpose your babbling argument into a movie scene - for simple observation purposes.

Batman vs. Superman lets say.

Doomsday spends 20 minutes punching Batman into a bloodied pulp but then later spends 1 minute of screen time to wreck Superman.

Which character in the above scenario appears tougher? Batman or Superman.

That would depend on how much time passes off-screen in the latter.

We see the entire Thor vs Mangog fight, and it is utterly, utterly one-sided, with the outcome never in doubt despite the number of punches landed by Mangog.

We do not see anything like the entirety of the Destroyer vs Mangog fight. The implication from the evidence when the scene cuts back to Destroyer/Mangog is that the fight has, until that point, been more of a contest than the War Thor fight was.

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No it isn't, unless the SAME character within the SAME story also went on to easily dismantle an opponent many magnitudes more powerful/durable with FAR LESS effort.

I don't agree that Mangog expended more effort on War Thor than he did on the Destroyer.

Despite the number of panels and punches on display in the Thor/Mangog fight, at no point did Mangog appear to be troubled. He landed lots of punches, sure, but it was a completely one-sided sustained beat-down, not a back and forth (indeed Thor was shaky-voiced and hurt after the very first punch). The vast majority of Mangog's attacks are landed in a single brutal flurry at the end, which is why I compared it to the Hulk/Abomination fight from IH #459. In that fight it is heavily implied that Hulk lands *hundreds* of unanswered punched on a defenceless Abomination without KO'ing him, but no-one reading that issue would come away with the impression that Hulk expended much effort in owning Blonsky.

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Yes but Jurgen's Mangog was CONSISTENT within that story.

Aaron Mangog seems consistent enough to me. He's tooled everyone, tanked everything and being strong enough to break the Destroyer armour is consistent with the strength displayed when crushing Ult Mjolnir.

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You don't SHOW Mangog to be MORE powerful by having him take FIVE TIMES as long to dispose of a Thor than the previous WEAKEST incarnation of Mangog.

You don't know how long either fight lasted. You're assuming based on your arbitrary way of counting panels.

My own arbitrary assumption is that the off-panel fight between Destroyer and Mangog likely lasted longer and was certainly less one-sided than the fight with War Thor.

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19 attacks is not a casual wrecking, its akin to the same number of attacks Doomsday takes to kill Superman in the Death of Superman storyline.

This is why counting raw attack numbers is a ridiculous way to judge fights.

Doomsday vs Superman was a multi-issue back and forth. Mangog vs War Thor was completely one-sided. At no point did Thor hurt Mangog, whereas every time Mangog hit Thor he messed him up. The vast majority of blows were landed in the final flurry, which left Thor a bleeding gibbering mess (again, see the comparison to Hulk vs Abomination in IH #459, where hundreds of punches are landed without reply without resulting in a KO - one-sided beatdowns do not require small numbers of punches before the knock out).

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Casually wrecking someone is accomplished in a few hits or less.

Like when Hulk casually wrecks various foes in World War Hulk (Thing, Ares)...then the fights get a bit tougher (Hulkbuster Armour, Zom Strange) then finally the big showdown* with Sentry

*Lasting an issue...as did the War Thor 'fight'.   :P

That's a poor analogy though. War Thor vs Mangog was nothing like the Hulk vs Iron Man/Zom/Sentry fights, because Thor never landed any meaningful offence that actually hurt Mangog. There was no back and forth, no doubt about who would win. Mangog walked through his best and fucked him up with ease. It's a sustained beat-down yes, but any interpretation other than it being utterly one-sided is absurd.

Apart from anything else, Mangog isn't even *trying* to knock War Thor out. He's torturing him in order to interrogate the location of the Asgardians out of him. That's why he spends half of the beatdown snapping his arms like twigs rather than punching him on the chin. "You still have a few bones that haven't been broken yet. Tell me." You can't interrogate an unconscious person.


Cheers.

pittfox

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2018, 07:06:50 PM »
Pretty awesome. This is how Mangog should always be portrayed. He is above top tiers.

TURBODERP

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Re: Re: New comic stuff worth talking about but not worth its own thread
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2018, 09:11:20 PM »
The most damage War Thor does is knocking a small tooth out (when Mangog spits it out) with a charged hammer shot to the face, and then maybe knocking another out when shoving the hammer into Mangog's mouth (although that looks to be an artistic thing because Mangog isn't missing any large front teeth in the next shot, and we see small splinters in that same scene).

That's it. Crushing Ultimate Mjolnir with 0 damage to Mangog also shows that Mangog is tougher than Ultimate Mjolnir too. Which lines up pretty well with "War Thor can do pretty much no meaningful damage to Mangog"

Mightily Oats

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Re: Mangog Punchometer shit
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2018, 12:56:14 AM »
Comics nowadays are about 843% more likely (exact figure conceived by my Blood-O-Meter) to have superficial damage, or the visual effects of non important damage take place than even 20 years ago