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Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2018, 03:02:30 PM »
You say J'Onn has never been equal to Clark or Diana in strength, but only one of the two examples you referenced is actually in line with that, since there's no reason I'm aware of to think Diana was equal to J'Onn under Ostrander, never mind stronger. Ostrander's J'Onn was able to shove Diana and Orion off him at the same time.

You're also ignoring multiple statements putting J'Onn's strength at roughly Superman level, including one that clearly pegs J'Onn as being above Diana. No doubt, J'Onn is weaker than Clark most of the time, but there's more evidence from the post-Crisis era painting him as a strength peer to Clark than there is for Diana.

1. There's considerably more statements saying SM is DCU strongest being bar none than you'll ever find stating MM is SM equal.

Agreed, but J'Onn has more statements painting him as a strength peer to Clark than Diana.

2. MM has never been above WW in STR, his only advantage over her has always been his versatility

This scene clearly suggests that J'Onn was above Diana in strength.



3. There's a big difference between being strong enough to push someone and being stronger than them or as strong as them.

Ostrander's J'Onn didn't push Diana randomly. She was trying to restrain him, and he shoved her back. He'd also been punched by Superman and zapped by Barda's Mega-Rod right before that.

What evidence or reasoning do you have that Diana was stronger than J'Onn under Ostrander?

4. I can easily give other examples, During the SM Rex storyline both WW and MM couldn't hold SM down, it took the suprise attack of Big Barda to temporarily knock SM down. Then who fought him at HTH later that issue it was Orion not MM.

How does that support your claim that Diana has always been stronger than J'Onn?

WM is a strenght peer to Thor and Hercules but that doesn't mean he's their equal in STR.

Yes, but again, how does this point support your claim that Diana has always been stronger than J'Onn? You seem fixated on establishing that J'Onn isn't Superman's equal, even though that's not the real point of contention. The real debate is how J'Onn and Diana compared during that era.

Here's another example during the JLA vs Titans issue 3 pg 27 you see WW stopping a meteorite the size of a mountain from falling with ease, yet MM is giving his all to stop one who's basically the size  of a battleship from falling.

You're ignoring the fact that J'Onn was trying to slow the object's fall and seal off the leaks of toxic gas it was emitting at the same time. But that's hardly worth arguing over. No one is suggesting that Diana doesn't have evidence in her favour. I'm just trying to get you to acknowledge that there's evidence in J'Onn's favour too.

Panthergod

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2018, 04:26:44 PM »
You say J'Onn has never been equal to Clark or Diana in strength, but only one of the two examples you referenced is actually in line with that, since there's no reason I'm aware of to think Diana was equal to J'Onn under Ostrander, never mind stronger. Ostrander's J'Onn was able to shove Diana and Orion off him at the same time.

You're also ignoring multiple statements putting J'Onn's strength at roughly Superman level, including one that clearly pegs J'Onn as being above Diana. No doubt, J'Onn is weaker than Clark most of the time, but there's more evidence from the post-Crisis era painting him as a strength peer to Clark than there is for Diana.

"post Crisis era" as a term is meaningless here, since Superman's stat level drastically increased during this era.

The term "post-Crisis era" serves a purpose, in so far as I'm deliberately not commenting on anything before or after that period.

Ah, so you're being *deliberately* disingenuous, as you know full well that Superman and Diana's relative strength portrayals got explicit relative upgrades during this period. It looks like you're using this deceitful tactic  in order to pretend as if J'Onn's portrayals in early post Crisis period are as valid as Post byrne and Luke Diana's FAR more consistent portrayals of higher end relative strength compared to J'Onn. Got it.

Quote
Diana also has a pretty obvious upgrade in relative status under Byrne, and then an on panel overall power increase during the Eric Luke run.

Those two writers clearly intended Diana to be stronger than J'Onn, but others wrote scenes and statements that suggest the opposite.
Yes, and Diana's were later, more consistent, and more relevant. Diana was portrayed as stronger than J'Onn on average from the late 90/early 2000s onward.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2018, 07:03:56 PM »
The term "post-Crisis era" serves a purpose, in so far as I'm deliberately not commenting on anything before or after that period.

Ah, so you're being *deliberately* disingenuous, as you know full well that Superman and Diana's relative strength portrayals got explicit relative upgrades during this period. It looks like you're using this deceitful tactic  in order to pretend as if J'Onn's portrayals in early post Crisis period are as valid as Post byrne and Luke Diana's FAR more consistent portrayals of higher end relative strength compared to J'Onn. Got it.

I acknowledged that Diana's stock has risen over that period the last time this subject came up.

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=16987.msg341615#msg341615


shadowknight claimed that Diana had always been stronger than J'Onn, so even factoring in Diana's stock appreciation, he's still wrong, and that's the point I'm making on this occasion.

Those two writers clearly intended Diana to be stronger than J'Onn, but others wrote scenes and statements that suggest the opposite.

Yes, and Diana's were later, more consistent, and more relevant. Diana was portrayed as stronger than J'Onn on average from the late 90/early 2000s onward.

Maybe. I'd say she was probably higher by the Gail Simone run. I don't think the deal was sealed by either the Byrne or Luke runs, but it really doesn't matter in regards to the claim I'm disputing. As with the Byrne quotes thing, you're butting into an argument without fully understanding the point you're attempting to dispute. Speaking of which, I'm still waiting for a response in that thread...

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=15676.msg345624#msg345624