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Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2018, 04:58:34 AM »
Ostander wrote the best MM & Spectre. Even turning him as one of the people for leaving an impression on a very young Clark. Ostander respects characters. He was not interested in battle board powers (unlike writers nowadays). If his character has to go down only to rise up to the challenge he will write it in such a way it won't be an out of the blue plot. He did justice to his characters like W. Simonson did/does.

Agreed. Ostrander is/was a good writer, and that was a nice story with J'Onn and the young Clark.





Ah right, it was an odd line then.

J'onn wasn't stronger than Adam there. That only leaves Alan and PG.

Why are you so certain that J'Onn wasn't stronger than Adam, but open-minded about whether PG was or not? I agree that J'Onn didn't look stronger, but neither did PG, who had less impact than J'Onn in the fight.

Sick Nick

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2018, 05:10:28 AM »
Why are you so certain that J'Onn wasn't stronger than Adam, but open-minded about whether PG was or not? I agree that J'Onn didn't look stronger, but neither did PG, who had less impact than J'Onn in the fight.

It was a strange line for Ostrander to throw in about there being others present who were stronger, faster, more powerful etc. If I were Ostrander, I'd have asked the artist to maybe add in little inset panels under each line, showing the hero in question being pulverised to underline Adam's ferocity. I guess Garrick was faster than Adam and Scott was more powerful but 'stronger' is a headscratcher. Looking down the list at the DC wiki page for the issue, nobody except PG qualifies. CM was taken out by then, I don't think Wonder Woman appeared in that battle and I don't know why J'onn would include himself. Atom Smasher at full power was strong enough to KO Power Girl with a stomp but he never came close to Adam in strength.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2018, 05:51:58 AM »
I must've seen 5 PG/Adam fights in the past few days and in all but one, Adam absolutely crushes PG. The only one where he doesn't is in 'Stealing Thunder' where PG jumps a Black Adam clone and hurls him at Atom Smasher clone, KOing him. In most of those fights, Kara doesn't look close to Adam's league, with him choking her out effortlessly or repelling her with a clap.

I know Adam is a much better fighter and much fiercer but he's just flat out much more powerful in most of those fights.

TBF, I need to research Adam vs Captain Marvel because I'm starting to wonder whether Adam's generally stronger than Billy overall, unless CM combines strength from different gods. He certainly looked a damn sight stronger early on in new 52.

There's also that comment from PG in JSA around 'Stealing Thunder', stating that she's stronger than Captain Marvel.

If we're thinking of the same scene, Hourman said Billy was the fastest and strongest member of the team, and PG disagreed about the strongest part. That isn't a clear-cut statement from Johns that PG was stronger than Billy. The two conflicting statements could be taken as equally valid, cancelling each other out, but if I were to lend more weight to one or the other, it would be to Hourman's, since ego couldn't have been a factor in what he said, whereas it easily could've been for PG's statement.

While Kara could be a braggart at times, I think writers Johns and David Goyer were honestly pushing her as the strongest member of the JSA at the time, given how she looked against the Superman clone. She didn't get a chance to do much more though, her big feats dried up soon after in that book. I wonder how Johns believes Adam compares with Captain Marvel?

Adam might've been stronger than Billy under Johns, but Johns presented the two as being in the same weight class, whereas PG never looked close to Adam under his authorship.

Under Jerry Ordway (the writer of POWER OF SHAZAM), Billy and Adam looked as equal as Thor and Hercules.

Why are you so certain that J'Onn wasn't stronger than Adam, but open-minded about whether PG was or not? I agree that J'Onn didn't look stronger, but neither did PG, who had less impact than J'Onn in the fight.

It was a strange line for Ostrander to throw in about there being others present who were stronger, faster, more powerful etc. If I were Ostrander, I'd have asked the artist to maybe add in little inset panels under each line, showing the hero in question being pulverised to underline Adam's ferocity. I guess Garrick was faster than Adam and Scott was more powerful but 'stronger' is a headscratcher. Looking down the list at the DC wiki page for the issue, nobody except PG qualifies. CM was taken out by then, I don't think Wonder Woman appeared in that battle and I don't know why J'onn would include himself. Atom Smasher at full power was strong enough to KO Power Girl with a stomp but he never came close to Adam in strength.

If we're determined to make sense of that line, then my pick would be either Billy or J'Onn. Yes, Billy wasn't present on the field at the point that statement was made, but he had been earlier, and returned later on. And J'Onn was shown rocking Adam with his attacks in a way PG never did in that story (or ever, that I know of). Also, Ostrander wrote Aquaman stating that J'Onn was "about as strong as Superman" in a prior issue of J'Onn's solo series. So unless we're ignoring that, then we're faced with the question of whether Ostrander considered PG stronger than Superman as well, which is a non-starter in my mind.


Sick Nick

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2018, 06:16:08 AM »
If we're thinking of the same scene, Hourman said Billy was the fastest and strongest member of the team, and PG disagreed about the strongest part. That isn't a clear-cut statement from Johns that PG was stronger than Billy. The two conflicting statements could be taken as equally valid, cancelling each other out, but if I were to lend more weight to one or the other, it would be to Hourman's, since ego couldn't have been a factor in what he said, whereas it easily could've been for PG's statement.

OTOH PG had only just rejoined the team and perhaps Hourman wasn't aware of her full capabilities. PG was portrayed as a real blowhard in those early days, working hard to establish herself but it's telling how well she did against the Superman clone and others in her first battle. I suspect Johns and Goyer intended her to be a force to be reckoned with but then she was taken out of major storylines soon after and they lost interest. She was never really shown to be so much of a bigmouth afterwards.

It does remind me a bit of the Hulk declaring himself to the strongest of all the heroes present at the start of 'Secret Wars', with Cap responding 'Thor and Iron Man might give you an argument about that but I won't'.

Quote
Adam might've been stronger than Billy under Johns, but Johns presented the two as being in the same weight class, whereas PG never looked close to Adam under his authorship.

Under Jerry Ordway (the writer of POWER OF SHAZAM), Billy and Adam looked as equal as Thor and Hercules.

I thought they were historic equals but then John Byrne had Superman saying that Adam hit harder than Billy. Knowing Byrne, he could've pulled that out of nowhere in order to tell a better story but combined with how much more powerful Adam looked in early new 52 stories, it got me wondering whether there was anything to it.

If we're determined to make sense of that line, then my pick would be either Billy or J'Onn. Yes, Billy wasn't present on the field at the point that statement was made, but he had been earlier, and returned later on. And J'Onn was shown rocking Adam with his attacks in a way PG never did in that story (or ever, that I know of). Also, Ostrander wrote Aquaman stating that J'Onn was "about as strong as Superman" in a prior issue of J'Onn's solo series. So unless we're ignoring that, then we're faced with the question of whether Ostrander considered PG stronger than Superman as well, which is a non-starter in my mind.

... or in anyone's.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2018, 07:45:39 AM »
If we're thinking of the same scene, Hourman said Billy was the fastest and strongest member of the team, and PG disagreed about the strongest part. That isn't a clear-cut statement from Johns that PG was stronger than Billy. The two conflicting statements could be taken as equally valid, cancelling each other out, but if I were to lend more weight to one or the other, it would be to Hourman's, since ego couldn't have been a factor in what he said, whereas it easily could've been for PG's statement.

OTOH PG had only just rejoined the team and perhaps Hourman wasn't aware of her full capabilities. PG was portrayed as a real blowhard in those early days, working hard to establish herself but it's telling how well she did against the Superman clone and others in her first battle. I suspect Johns and Goyer intended her to be a force to be reckoned with but then she was taken out of major storylines soon after and they lost interest. She was never really shown to be so much of a bigmouth afterwards.

It does remind me a bit of the Hulk declaring himself to the strongest of all the heroes present at the start of 'Secret Wars', with Cap responding 'Thor and Iron Man might give you an argument about that but I won't'.

PG did fare well against the Superman clone, far better than she ever did against Adam in multiple attempts, which suggests the Superman clone was significantly less effective than Adam for whatever reason.

I think the disagreement over who was the strongest member on the team suggests that Johns wanted to acknowledge that PG was also a powerhouse in her own right, and someone who could reasonably dispute Hourman's statement without it seeming preposterous, but actions speak louder than words, and in practice, Billy looked more of a match for Adam under Johns than PG ever did.

Adam might've been stronger than Billy under Johns, but Johns presented the two as being in the same weight class, whereas PG never looked close to Adam under his authorship.

Under Jerry Ordway (the writer of POWER OF SHAZAM), Billy and Adam looked as equal as Thor and Hercules.

I thought they were historic equals but then John Byrne had Superman saying that Adam hit harder than Billy. Knowing Byrne, he could've pulled that out of nowhere in order to tell a better story but combined with how much more powerful Adam looked in early new 52 stories, it got me wondering whether there was anything to it.

Gail Simone wrote the issue where Superman and Black Adam fought (which was pencilled by Byrne), but it's possible that Byrne considered Adam stronger than Billy as well. Byrne had previously established that Wonder Woman was supposedly second only to Superman in strength, although the reasoning given in a WONDER WOMAN letters column capitalised on Billy's power-sharing dynamic, thereby leaving it unclear as to whether Byrne's Diana was stronger than Billy while Billy was at full power.




I've heard tell that Gail Simone was influenced by a pre-Crisis DC COMICS PRESENTS issue, where Black Adam fought Superman and Billy separately, and then very briefly together (for one panel). But that issue suggested that Adam only had the advantage over Billy while Billy was holding back, and Adam chose to flee when Billy took the gloves off.

https://imgur.com/a/8XbuK


Incidentally, here are scans of Billy and Adam's fights under Jerry Ordway. I uploaded these recently for another thread.

https://imgur.com/a/4xBwf

https://imgur.com/a/jTe7T

https://imgur.com/a/uzBNq

https://imgur.com/a/vInqr

beatboks

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2018, 11:34:03 AM »
Atom smasher is getting way too much credit here.
most rankings of him bar maybe shadowknight are far too high.
Dont get me wrong Al Pratt has striking feats that someone class 80-85 could do bit it;s NOT purely because of strength.
Al has other powers. the powers of density and mass manipulation (his own that is)
he strikes hard because he can make his own mass increase or his body denser.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/4738787-mass+increase+for+blow.jpg

notice how he can shatter a wall by increasing his mass (not purely due to his strength)

Here

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2294109-holding_up_a_building_at_a_portion_of_his_full_size.jpg

he needed both mass AND size growing to increase his strength

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/4738788-still+alters+mass.+in+jsa+.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/4738786-increases+mass.jpg

increasing his mass is a go to move when he feels threatened.

Sick Nick

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2018, 04:29:02 AM »
Atom smasher is getting way too much credit here.
most rankings of him bar maybe shadowknight are far too high.
Dont get me wrong Al Pratt has striking feats that someone class 80-85 could do bit it;s NOT purely because of strength.
Al has other powers. the powers of density and mass manipulation (his own that is)
he strikes hard because he can make his own mass increase or his body denser.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/4738787-mass+increase+for+blow.jpg

notice how he can shatter a wall by increasing his mass (not purely due to his strength)

Here

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2294109-holding_up_a_building_at_a_portion_of_his_full_size.jpg

he needed both mass AND size growing to increase his strength

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/4738788-still+alters+mass.+in+jsa+.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/4738786-increases+mass.jpg

increasing his mass is a go to move when he feels threatened.

Thanks for all that info, I don't know much about the character. I know he KOed PG with a stomp but he took her by surprise and looked to be at least 60 feet tall plus he could have been using his density powers. I also know he looked completely uncompetitive with Black Adam in an armwrestle.

Sick Nick

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2018, 05:11:25 AM »
Who's who entries were published before the characters were established post crisis.

Oh, I should've added that this was an '87 update, not the standard Who's Who. It was PG's second bio, written after she was thought to be Atlantean.

Quote
Issue number for the wonder woman comparison?

I looked this up. It's in #1 of the PG limited series; she's fighting a superstrong villain called Force, who shoves a van into her with zero effect. PG says something like 'Try again, Force. I may not be in Wonder Woman's league for strength but you'll have to do better than that.'

Interestingly, I forgot that Force was eventually killed by Da Bomb in a bid to win PG's affections.

I also found yet another instance of PG looking well inferior to Black Adam in '52' when she tries to pursue Terra-Man into Kandahq airspace and Adam stops her.

It's not just Johns, it looks like all writers to date have put PG well below Adam. Their best scrap had PG wailing away on Adam but he just reaches up and grabs her by the throat and she's powerless against him. Reminded me a lot of an Avengers vs Count Nefaria fight where exactly the same thing happened with She-Hulk against Nefaria.

Interestingly, I found what looks to be the first meeting of Adam and Kara; they're trashing a giant robot probe together and Adam says 'Your ... strength impresses me, woman'. I bet he was going to compliment her on her bazoomas and thought better of it.

Commander

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2018, 05:35:58 AM »
You had me interested with your dual interests.

beatboks

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2018, 10:57:39 PM »
Atom smasher is getting way too much credit here.
most rankings of him bar maybe shadowknight are far too high.
Dont get me wrong Al Pratt has striking feats that someone class 80-85 could do bit it;s NOT purely because of strength.
Al has other powers. the powers of density and mass manipulation (his own that is)
he strikes hard because he can make his own mass increase or his body denser.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/4738787-mass+increase+for+blow.jpg

notice how he can shatter a wall by increasing his mass (not purely due to his strength)

Here

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2294109-holding_up_a_building_at_a_portion_of_his_full_size.jpg

he needed both mass AND size growing to increase his strength

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/4738788-still+alters+mass.+in+jsa+.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/4738786-increases+mass.jpg

increasing his mass is a go to move when he feels threatened.

Thanks for all that info, I don't know much about the character. I know he KOed PG with a stomp but he took her by surprise and looked to be at least 60 feet tall plus he could have been using his density powers. I also know he looked completely uncompetitive with Black Adam in an armwrestle.

In the same issue that he was unable to compete with BA (or maybe next issue) he punched BA and sent him flying thru tje JSA Brownestone's skylight and across a block or so.

His density powers would have negligible affect on arm wrestling but do significantly affect his striking power.

He does also seem stronger when in giant form than normal size. Strength appears to becomes comparative to size. Though nothing really confirms this definitively. It may also be due to taking on extra mass for the size.

Before he absorbed additional thorium radiation which added his molecular density, mass, size changing powers to his original Super Strength he certainly jad no feats even close to 40-50 ton. That radiation may have also ampes his strength but to this day he has no liftimg feats above the pre extra radiation, he only has better striking feats and as shown some specifically state due to his mass altering

There is also the fact that toward the end of the arc where je got the boost he struggled to lift something that his team mate Fury took over and did easily. Yet when he uses his mass altering powers in that hospital scan he clearly states he strikes as good as Fury. Pretty clear indication that his striking/ punching power 》》》 his strength
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 12:38:56 AM by beatboks »

shadowknight

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2018, 11:11:42 AM »
If people readthe JSA letter page a few issues after the PG comment, the Editor or  Geoff John the writer had answered it was just PG being a blowhard. As for MM he's never been the equal of WW let alone SM in STR lvl, that doesn't mean he isn't competitive it simply SM, CM, WW, BA an Orion are just much stronger. There are to many examples of this but the best well known are John Ostrander excellent series where he had to grow to do a strength feat that SM could have easily done with 1 hand tied behind his back, the other well known example is Maxwell Lord computer board that shows SM, WW and MM STR lvl. IIRC SM was rated 1A, WW1B and MM was rated 2B as clearly below them.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 11:24:53 AM by shadowknight »

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2018, 11:57:10 AM »
If people readthe JSA letter page a few issues after the PG comment, the Editor or  Geoff John the writer had answered it was just PG being a blowhard. As for MM he's never been the equal of WW let alone SM in STR lvl, that doesn't mean he isn't competitive it simply SM, CM, WW, BA an Orion are just much stronger. There are to many examples of this but the best well known are John Ostrander excellent series where he had to grow to do a strength feat that SM could have easily done with 1 hand tied behind his back, the other well known example is Maxwell Lord computer board that shows SM, WW and MM STR lvl. IIRC SM was rated 1A, WW1B and MM was rated 2B as clearly below them.

You say J'Onn has never been equal to Clark or Diana in strength, but only one of the two examples you referenced is actually in line with that, since there's no reason I'm aware of to think Diana was equal to J'Onn under Ostrander, never mind stronger. Ostrander's J'Onn was able to shove Diana and Orion off him at the same time.

You're also ignoring multiple statements putting J'Onn's strength at roughly Superman level, including one that clearly pegs J'Onn as being above Diana. No doubt, J'Onn is weaker than Clark most of the time, but there's more evidence from the post-Crisis era painting him as a strength peer to Clark than there is for Diana.

Panthergod

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2018, 01:04:15 PM »
If people readthe JSA letter page a few issues after the PG comment, the Editor or  Geoff John the writer had answered it was just PG being a blowhard. As for MM he's never been the equal of WW let alone SM in STR lvl, that doesn't mean he isn't competitive it simply SM, CM, WW, BA an Orion are just much stronger. There are to many examples of this but the best well known are John Ostrander excellent series where he had to grow to do a strength feat that SM could have easily done with 1 hand tied behind his back, the other well known example is Maxwell Lord computer board that shows SM, WW and MM STR lvl. IIRC SM was rated 1A, WW1B and MM was rated 2B as clearly below them.

You say J'Onn has never been equal to Clark or Diana in strength, but only one of the two examples you referenced is actually in line with that, since there's no reason I'm aware of to think Diana was equal to J'Onn under Ostrander, never mind stronger. Ostrander's J'Onn was able to shove Diana and Orion off him at the same time.

You're also ignoring multiple statements putting J'Onn's strength at roughly Superman level, including one that clearly pegs J'Onn as being above Diana. No doubt, J'Onn is weaker than Clark most of the time, but there's more evidence from the post-Crisis era painting him as a strength peer to Clark than there is for Diana.

"post Crisis era" as a term is meaningless here, since Superman's stat level drastically increased during this era.

Diana also has a pretty obvious upgrade in relative status under Byrne, and then an on panel overall power increase during the Eric Luke run.

shadowknight

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2018, 01:12:18 PM »
If people readthe JSA letter page a few issues after the PG comment, the Editor or  Geoff John the writer had answered it was just PG being a blowhard. As for MM he's never been the equal of WW let alone SM in STR lvl, that doesn't mean he isn't competitive it simply SM, CM, WW, BA an Orion are just much stronger. There are to many examples of this but the best well known are John Ostrander excellent series where he had to grow to do a strength feat that SM could have easily done with 1 hand tied behind his back, the other well known example is Maxwell Lord computer board that shows SM, WW and MM STR lvl. IIRC SM was rated 1A, WW1B and MM was rated 2B as clearly below them.

You say J'Onn has never been equal to Clark or Diana in strength, but only one of the two examples you referenced is actually in line with that, since there's no reason I'm aware of to think Diana was equal to J'Onn under Ostrander, never mind stronger. Ostrander's J'Onn was able to shove Diana and Orion off him at the same time.

You're also ignoring multiple statements putting J'Onn's strength at roughly Superman level, including one that clearly pegs J'Onn as being above Diana. No doubt, J'Onn is weaker than Clark most of the time, but there's more evidence from the post-Crisis era painting him as a strength peer to Clark than there is for Diana.
1. There's considerably more statements saying SM is DCU strongest being bar none than you'll ever find stating MM is SM equal.
 2. MM has never been above WW in STR, his only advantage over her has always been his versatility
 3. There's a big difference between being strong enough to push someone and being stronger than them or as strong as them.

4. I can easily give other examples, During the SM Rex storyline both WW and MM couldn't hold SM down, it took the suprise attack of Big Barda to temporarily knock SM down. Then who fought him at HTH later that issue it was Orion not MM. WM is a strenght peer to Thor and Hercules but that doesn't mean he's their equal in STR. Here's another example during the JLA vs Titans issue 3 pg 27 you see WW stopping a meteorite the size of a mountain from falling with ease, yet MM is giving his all to stop one who's basically the size  of a battleship from falling.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 01:18:31 PM by shadowknight »

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2018, 02:42:04 PM »
You say J'Onn has never been equal to Clark or Diana in strength, but only one of the two examples you referenced is actually in line with that, since there's no reason I'm aware of to think Diana was equal to J'Onn under Ostrander, never mind stronger. Ostrander's J'Onn was able to shove Diana and Orion off him at the same time.

You're also ignoring multiple statements putting J'Onn's strength at roughly Superman level, including one that clearly pegs J'Onn as being above Diana. No doubt, J'Onn is weaker than Clark most of the time, but there's more evidence from the post-Crisis era painting him as a strength peer to Clark than there is for Diana.

"post Crisis era" as a term is meaningless here, since Superman's stat level drastically increased during this era.

The term "post-Crisis era" serves a purpose, in so far as I'm deliberately not commenting on anything before or after that period.

Diana also has a pretty obvious upgrade in relative status under Byrne, and then an on panel overall power increase during the Eric Luke run.

Those two writers clearly intended Diana to be stronger than J'Onn, but others wrote scenes and statements that suggest the opposite.