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Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength

shadowknight

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2018, 11:15:37 AM »
The problem with ranking these people unlike SM, WW or CM  is some are all over the place strengthwise and some are tougher than they are strong. Having said that here is my estimation with some caveats.




Atom Smasher- Cl 55-80=most of the time operates at the low CL 70 lvl

Hippolyta as WW- has the most variance in her depictions she can be anywhere from Cl 30-90=most of the time operates at the high CL 60 lvl

Citizen Steel-this character is extremely dense and tough and appears to be stronger than he's Cl 60-85=most of the time operates at the high CL 80 lvl

Prince (only appeared at the end of JSA All Stars but seemed to be nearly as strong as Power Girl)-Don't know him

Knockout- very similar to AS Cl 60-80 the main difference she faster than AS and doesn't grow to activate her strength=most of the time operates at the high CL 75 lvl

Magog-Cl 70-95=most of the time operates at the high CL 80 lvl

Major Force-Cl 75-90==most of the time operates at the high CL 80 lvl



Sick Nick

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2018, 12:15:04 PM »
A lot of those figures are surprisingly low, Shadowknight. Wasn't Major Force about as strong as Captain Atom?

To me, Citizen Steel is probably Class 100 - I've seen claims on other boards that he was probably stronger than PG towards the end of JSA, taking into account that Gog example

Prince wasn't as strong as PG but was strong enough that it took some real effort for her to restrain him, so he's got to be at least 90 tons level. He only appeared in 2 issues though.

Sick Nick

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2018, 12:20:05 PM »
Barda beat the shit out of knock out....

She looked a bit stronger overall and would've won if it'd gone to a decision but this is a LONG way from one-sided:

https://imgur.com/a/9V5oO

Abhilegend

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2018, 12:37:09 PM »
Later he looked equal to PG who was at an all time high and black lantern Kal L said so too.


Hmmm, when did he look equal to PG? JSA or another title?
Kal L said he was a match for PG.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/A_es9PWpDZdYfoBYoTCdPHrhSgZj1lQEH_IYGaWlgjROOua4JGgvRxY6yJd3q1lReVi0r-da32OT=s1600
I just read that Kal L effortlessly knocked Steel aside when he tried to help PG against him, calling him 'a paperweight'. I need to find that issue.

Was Kal L stronger than Kal-El?
It's Blackest Night JSA 3.

No,they matched pretty equally in Infinite Crisis.

Thanks. To be fair, there's a difference between saying a character could give another character a run for their money and them actually being equal - an old Power Girl Who's Who profile essentially said she could give Superman a decent fight but that she definitely wasn't as strong as him.


That was after she lost most of her powers in JLE.

He looked stronger than her in most appearances under Johns.
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PG definitely did better than Steel against Kal L overall but I'd suggest Steel's proportionately more durable than strong - Magog could barely budge him with his blows but could knock PG around just fine.

I'd still say Steel's the strongest on my list though, apart from possibly Major Force.
Even then there is a huge contradiction. Mammoth knocked steel out and then PG koed Mammoth.





shadowknight

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2018, 03:24:38 PM »
A lot of those figures are surprisingly low, Shadowknight. Wasn't Major Force about as strong as Captain Atom?

To me, Citizen Steel is probably Class 100 - I've seen claims on other boards that he was probably stronger than PG towards the end of JSA, taking into account that Gog example

Prince wasn't as strong as PG but was strong enough that it took some real effort for her to restrain him, so he's got to be at least 90 tons level. He only appeared in 2 issues though.

1. If you notice I put a range in STR

2. Major Force is probably as strong as Cap Atom but Cap Atom is more consistent nevertheless I would put Cap Atom at CL 90 also IMO he's just below PG who's CL 92-95

3. As for Citizen Steel he's similar to Cage, he tougher, denser than strength. No way is he CL 100 at his best he's Thing lvl.

4. I remember Prince so I can't comment, nevertheless some heroes are tougher than they're STRONG.

Sick Nick

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2018, 05:55:03 AM »
That was after she lost most of her powers in JLE.

No, it wasn't. It was during the time when she believed she was Atlantean but it was before her stint on JLE, not long after her first solo series. The Who's Who was 1987 and I don't think Kara joined the JLE until 1989.

Also, much like when Hercules lost his immortality at Marvel, it seemed to vary massively from writer to writer how much strength PG had lost and how strong she was in the first place. Hell, during her first solo series and before her power loss, she said at one point that she wasn't in Wonder Woman's league strengthwise. However, right when Kara was smashed by the Gray Man, Captain Atom said she was stronger than Rocket Red and himself put together.

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He looked stronger than her in most appearances under Johns.


Oh, I've no doubt Supes has pretty much always been stronger than her. The most competitive she ever looked was against the Superclone in Stealing Thunder. I read that Blackest Night issue and Supes was convincingly stronger there.

On top of that, Black Adam's always looked noticeably stronger than PG, even with that weird note in World War 3 about there being stronger heroes than Adam present, with the main two contenders presumably being PG and J'onn.

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Even then there is a huge contradiction. Mammoth knocked steel out and then PG koed Mammoth.


Where did she KO Mammoth? To me, that's a pretty low showing for Steel, Mammoth ain't all that. It's also an insanely high showing for Kara in that storyline if Blue Moon truly was as strong as Superman.

Sick Nick

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2018, 05:58:20 AM »
1. If you notice I put a range in STR

2. Major Force is probably as strong as Cap Atom but Cap Atom is more consistent nevertheless I would put Cap Atom at CL 90 also IMO he's just below PG who's CL 92-95

On that scale, what Class are Thing and Thor IYO?

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3. As for Citizen Steel he's similar to Cage, he tougher, denser than strength. No way is he CL 100 at his best he's Thing lvl.

And yet he toppled Gog where everyone else failed.

Almighty Tallest

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2018, 01:28:35 AM »
Most of Steel's showings are when he's in his suit which restricts his strength by a huge margin as its over 280klbs per square inch to keep him from destroying the environment by moving.

He ripped the top half off to knock over Gog. So he was at most half strength when he did that.

The Mammoth fight was PIS. That was the issue where they heroes fought villains and had some sort of supposed advantage. Like Judomaster lost because her opponent had a snake lower body and that overcame her 1v1 unbeatability as she technically got attacked from multiple sides at once.

Sick Nick

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2018, 04:00:52 AM »
Most of Steel's showings are when he's in his suit which restricts his strength by a huge margin as its over 280klbs per square inch to keep him from destroying the environment by moving.

He ripped the top half off to knock over Gog. So he was at most half strength when he did that.

The Mammoth fight was PIS. That was the issue where they heroes fought villains and had some sort of supposed advantage. Like Judomaster lost because her opponent had a snake lower body and that overcame her 1v1 unbeatability as she technically got attacked from multiple sides at once.

I forgot Steel's suit dampened his strength. Makes you wonder how strong he truly is without it ... probably FAR beyond the likes of Power Girl.

You're right about the JSA fight with the villains, although I don't know what Achilles heel Mammoth was capitalising on with Steel. It looked like the writer just thought Mammoth was stronger.

Almighty Tallest

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2018, 04:17:04 AM »
Most of Steel's showings are when he's in his suit which restricts his strength by a huge margin as its over 280klbs per square inch to keep him from destroying the environment by moving.

He ripped the top half off to knock over Gog. So he was at most half strength when he did that.

The Mammoth fight was PIS. That was the issue where they heroes fought villains and had some sort of supposed advantage. Like Judomaster lost because her opponent had a snake lower body and that overcame her 1v1 unbeatability as she technically got attacked from multiple sides at once.

I forgot Steel's suit dampened his strength. Makes you wonder how strong he truly is without it ... probably FAR beyond the likes of Power Girl.

You're right about the JSA fight with the villains, although I don't know what Achilles heel Mammoth was capitalising on with Steel. It looked like the writer just thought Mammoth was stronger.

He was one of those characters who was super cool upon inception, but then they just didn't do much with him. Like, this guy is so strong Mr. Terrific has to smelt a suit of spaceship metal armor onto him so he doesn't kill everyone he touches and destroy the world around him by walking. And he gets like 2-4 cool showings over years.

Abhilegend

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2018, 12:34:25 PM »
That was after she lost most of her powers in JLE.

No, it wasn't. It was during the time when she believed she was Atlantean but it was before her stint on JLE, not long after her first solo series. The Who's Who was 1987 and I don't think Kara joined the JLE until 1989.


Who's who entries were published before the characters were established post crisis.

Atlantean power girl was nowhere near Superman level strength.
Quote


Also, much like when Hercules lost his immortality at Marvel, it seemed to vary massively from writer to writer how much strength PG had lost and how strong she was in the first place. Hell, during her first solo series and before her power loss, she said at one point that she wasn't in Wonder Woman's league strengthwise. However, right when Kara was smashed by the Gray Man, Captain Atom said she was stronger than Rocket Red and himself put together.


Yeah but Johns put doubt over her power and origins from get go when Dr Midnight said her powers were not magical and Arion said she wasn't his granddaughter in Princes of Darkness.

Issue number for the wonder woman comparison?

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He looked stronger than her in most appearances under Johns.


Oh, I've no doubt Supes has pretty much always been stronger than her. The most competitive she ever looked was against the Superclone in Stealing Thunder. I read that Blackest Night issue and Supes was convincingly stronger there.
[/quote]

I'm talking about Steel.
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On top of that, Black Adam's always looked noticeably stronger than PG, even with that weird note in World War 3 about there being stronger heroes than Adam present, with the main two contenders presumably being PG and J'onn.


Johns has a big hard on for Adam.

That issue was written by John Ostrander. PG was only one stronger as Adam kicked J'onn's ass without much trouble.

PG and Alan restrained Adam later.
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Even then there is a huge contradiction. Mammoth knocked steel out and then PG koed Mammoth.


Where did she KO Mammoth? To me, that's a pretty low showing for Steel, Mammoth ain't all that. It's also an insanely high showing for Kara in that storyline if Blue Moon truly was as strong as Superman.
Oh I forgot, it was Steel himself.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/dflZysI_MFSqYFIN0XqcV8Jm_Yg0ksdB83qkjrhSxtYu0EIBpeLa-fICJa5G3fWbLXZrm-U3HO5E=s1600

Not really, she was losing against Blue Moon.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2018, 05:16:59 PM »
Johns has a big hard on for Adam.

That issue was written by John Ostrander. PG was only one stronger as Adam kicked J'onn's ass without much trouble.

PG and Alan restrained Adam later.

Disagree about any suggestion that PG was stronger than J'Onn in WW3. PG was only shown helping Alan to restrain Adam in 52 #50, written by Johns.

In the WW3 mini itself (written by Ostrander), where J'Onn says that there was those among them who were stronger, faster or more powerful than Adam, it's mainly Alan who appears to be restraining Adam, with Geo-Force and the Natasha Irons Steel serving as additonal distractions, plus J'Onn attacking Adam telepathically. PG, when visible during that sequence, was some distance away.

And she does nothing of note in the mini. All we see of her fightwise is her getting bashed around alongside numerous other heroes. J'Onn was physically overpowered too, but unlike PG, he fought Adam one-on-one, and got in some effective attacks of his own. J'Onn was clearly presented as a bigger factor in the battle than PG under Ostrander, which should be little surprise, since Ostrander wrote J'Onn's solo title.

Commander

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2018, 07:28:55 PM »
Ostander wrote the best MM & Spectre. Even turning him as one of the people for leaving an impression on a very young Clark. Ostander respects characters. He was not interested in battle board powers (unlike writers nowadays). If his character has to go down only to rise up to the challenge he will write it in such a way it won't be an out of the blue plot. He did justice to his characters like W. Simonson did/does.

Abhilegend

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2018, 10:01:24 PM »
Johns has a big hard on for Adam.

That issue was written by John Ostrander. PG was only one stronger as Adam kicked J'onn's ass without much trouble.

PG and Alan restrained Adam later.

Disagree about any suggestion that PG was stronger than J'Onn in WW3. PG was only shown helping Alan to restrain Adam in 52 #50, written by Johns.

In the WW3 mini itself (written by Ostrander), where J'Onn says that there was those among them who were stronger, faster or more powerful than Adam, it's mainly Alan who appears to be restraining Adam, with Geo-Force and the Natasha Irons Steel serving as additonal distractions, plus J'Onn attacking Adam telepathically. PG, when visible during that sequence, was some distance away.

And she does nothing of note in the mini. All we see of her fightwise is her getting bashed around alongside numerous other heroes. J'Onn was physically overpowered too, but unlike PG, he fought Adam one-on-one, and got in some effective attacks of his own. J'Onn was clearly presented as a bigger factor in the battle than PG under Ostrander, which should be little surprise, since Ostrander wrote J'Onn's solo title.
Ah right, it was an odd line then.

J'onn wasn't stronger than Adam there. That only leaves Alan and PG.

Sick Nick

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Re: Rank the Post-Crisis characters in strength
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2018, 04:52:18 AM »
Who's who entries were published before the characters were established post crisis.

Atlantean power girl was nowhere near Superman level strength.


Well, before her powerdown in JLE, she was a powerhouse. Atlantean PG was no weaker than Kryptonian PG had been, she just believed her powers had a different origin. In #2 of JLE, she ended the battle with a team of Global Guardians with a single shot. Captain Atom said she was stronger than he and Rocket Red put together and over in 'Warlord', she was doing stuff like flying long distances carrying large ships and easily moving doors that weighed hundreds of tons.

The Who's Who entry doesn't say she's even near Superman level but she's strong enough to give him a decent workout. I could say the same for the Thing compared with Thor over at Marvel. Hell, in Possessor's bio in the Marvel Handbook, it said that 50 tons levels strength is enough to allow a character to have an extended scrap with Thor.

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Yeah but Johns put doubt over her power and origins from get go when Dr Midnight said her powers were not magical and Arion said she wasn't his granddaughter in Princes of Darkness.

Issue number for the wonder woman comparison?

I can't remember TBH but it's in the PG mini-series. I wanna say #2 when she first fights Force? He hits her and she says something like 'I may not be in Wonder Woman's league for strength but I can easily handle the likes of you'.

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I'm talking about Steel.


Odd what Kal L said then but he didn't realise how strong Steel was without the suit.

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On top of that, Black Adam's always looked noticeably stronger than PG, even with that weird note in World War 3 about there being stronger heroes than Adam present, with the main two contenders presumably being PG and J'onn.


I must've seen 5 PG/Adam fights in the past few days and in all but one, Adam absolutely crushes PG. The only one where he doesn't is in 'Stealing Thunder' where PG jumps a Black Adam clone and hurls him at Atom Smasher clone, KOing him. In most of those fights, Kara doesn't look close to Adam's league, with him choking her out effortlessly or repelling her with a clap.

I know Adam is a much better fighter and much fiercer but he's just flat out much more powerful in most of those fights.

TBF, I need to research Adam vs Captain Marvel because I'm starting to wonder whether Adam's generally stronger than Billy overall, unless CM combines strength from different gods. He certainly looked a damn sight stronger early on in new 52.

There's also that comment from PG in JSA around 'Stealing Thunder', stating that she's stronger than Captain Marvel. While Kara could be a braggart at times, I think writers Johns and David Goyer were honestly pushing her as the strongest member of the JSA at the time, given how she looked against the Superman clone. She didn't get a chance to do much more though, her big feats dried up soon after in that book. I wonder how Johns believes Adam compares with Captain Marvel?

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PG was only one stronger as Adam kicked J'onn's ass without much trouble.

PG and Alan restrained Adam later.


He kicked PG's arse without much trouble as well.

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Not really, she was losing against Blue Moon.

Didn't she eventually KO her? She was dominating her earlier on.