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What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?

Ditto

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2017, 07:36:23 PM »
I don’t think I would have minded if they’d started with a justice league movie and then split into standalone single outings, or even Dual starring movies.

Give us a justice league with the trinity and the other three to begin with, then split off to a Batman/ cyborg movie fighting some tech based criminal (makes it believable that bats would need cyborg), a Wonder Woman / aquaman movie against some Greek mythology shit, maybe Poseidon and hades are having a turf battle or who gives a shit, and then finally Superman and Flash against who the fuck cares and then keep going once you’ve built up good will.

Alternately give us JL and make us want to see each individual member.

But so far they did a standalone dark Superman that was shoehorned into a shared universe
Superman facing off against Batman in a fucking mess
A horrible team up movie of Harley and the d-listers no one knows because guardians did well
Wonder Woman which they managed to get right with help from the current feminist movement Hyping it the fuck up

Then justice league which was supposed to be two films and wound up with two directors

They have no consistency for their vision and it’s clear they have no fucking idea what they’re doing. They’re just doing a poor job of reacting to what works at marvel.

The best part about marvel is it’s like watching a comic book coming to life. It’s a fucking adventure. You get to know the character because they’re that character now. I’m absolutely not ready to lose a single avenger I’ve come to know and love whereas they could have killed the whole JL and I would have been like “well that’s different, I guess.”

In short, fuck Warner brothers. They need a Dark Kevin Feige.

Commander

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2017, 10:19:38 PM »
I agree. One factor they failed in is to make a consistent vision of their shared universe. Aside from that, fans were not thrilled with a doom & gloom Superman. The irony of the movie is depicting "S" that stood for hope when in fact the entire theme was built on despair including himself.
It is no different from a salesman telling you how great the hair-growing shampoo is yet the salesman is bald.

Pillow Biter

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2017, 01:06:17 AM »
I'm not sure they are the major factor, but I think people are too quickly discounting the impact of intrinsic differences in the source materials. I have a feeling they matter, and perhaps matter a lot.

Panthergod

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2017, 01:15:24 AM »
I'm not sure they are the major factor, but I think people are too quickly discounting the impact of intrinsic differences in the source materials. I have a feeling they matter, and perhaps matter a lot.

the intrinsic difference is that DC is about Messianic Utopianism and Marvel is much more cynical by nature, having pioneered the heroes with feet of clay trope. Snyder, being the DC hating edgelord that he is, reversed the traditional difference between the companies MYTHOS because he's an unsophisticated idiot who doesnt comprehend Moore and Miller's deliberate deconstruction of DC in the 80s via Watchmen and DKR.

Snake-eyes

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2017, 02:08:03 AM »
I'm not sure they are the major factor, but I think people are too quickly discounting the impact of intrinsic differences in the source materials. I have a feeling they matter, and perhaps matter a lot.

Explain in detail what you view as the intrinsic differences.

Commander

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2017, 02:25:40 AM »
As Panthergod stated. DC allowed Snyder to rape the DCU mythos.

Why do you think people smile whenever they hear the inspiring theme of the Donner Superman followed by a flying Christoper Reeve? Then you get him to make witty one liners.

"Hi there. Something wrong with the elevator?"
"Going down."

Then you have the Snyder Superman.

(Mute response = Life is so hollow...  :'(

Snyder even tried to have a forced scene of Superman being surrounded by the people who tried to touch him but there was nothing inspiring about it. He was like... "Jezaz Fuck... get me out of here!" face.

Again, Snyder missed the WOW factor in all of his DCEU movies. When I watch a movie about heroes, I want to be inspired & entertained. I want them to rise up to the challenge and in the end, the hero says, everything will be fine. Look at how WW glowed in the screen. Look at how Steve or Tony lit up the screen. How they banter. Look at how Thor has been shown and why he succeeds.

I did not come to a Superman movie to be reminded of how life is all about doom and gloom. I've had enough of that reading CNN, Yahoo News and life itself alone. I want 2 hours of fun and entertainment. To live in an alternate world for just 2 hours where hope means hope. Not dope. Seriously, I was hoping for them to capture the magic of the original JL animated (or even The Batman featuring the JLA) where you see them unite the 1st time... well, they still fared like sheit against a cartoon.

Snyder forgot about this and so did the rest of WB. Now they have paid the price with a projected loss of $60-70M and heads are rolling and more should roll.

Bran Mak Morn

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2017, 08:33:48 AM »
One of the biggest problems I had with JL was making all the characters obscure, fighting an obscure villain in an obscure location.

Supes was "dead" & the world was on it's way to forgetting him.
Bats was no longer focussing on petty street crime but obsessed with the Parademons....with zero detective skills at that.
WW came across as a part time hero.
Aquaman was content with being a small town hero.
Flash was completely unknown & unsure of the hero mantle.
And Cyborg was too busy feeling sorry for himself to do any good for anyone else.

Then you have a villain who doesn't actually reveals himself to the world...so basically no one actually knows their existence is in danger.
Or the fact the they need heroes to save them...

Then finally you have the end battle in some obscure part of the planet where only a handful of residents' lives are at stake but whether they live or die doesn't really matter...

Whereas Marvel...the heroes are out & proud to the entire world, the danger is obvious & the villain's plans pretty much affect everyone.

Basically with JL...no one knew they existed, no one knew they joined together & lastly no one knew they were actually in danger.

Pillow Biter

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2017, 11:29:41 AM »
I'm not sure they are the major factor, but I think people are too quickly discounting the impact of intrinsic differences in the source materials. I have a feeling they matter, and perhaps matter a lot.

Explain in detail what you view as the intrinsic differences.

That's tough. And I'm not about to throw out a huge monologue here if no one else seems to believe it's true. I do believe the names hurt, a bit. Marvel has their share of names to work around, but it's tougher on the DC side.
I think the DCEU material may be higher upside and downside than Marvel's. But definitely harder to do right. And there's a possibility that what the DC material aspires to is actually a bit beyond what the superhero-genre can really aspire to, especially for most, when real light is shone on it by making it into such widely-viewed movies. So while one could possibly (and possibly not) succeed in making a DC movie with transcendent themes that really moves us, there is the question of 'why do that with superheroes?' Why not do it with something more substantial.
What Marvel source material aspires to might be pitched at exactly the right level for what one should try to do with superheroes and big budget movies. Particularly when you aim to make a whole bunch of them. With more profound aims, you might manage to catch lightning in a bottle once, and maybe twice; but how could you aim for a MCU-like formula where you can crank out 20+ movies, all of the same caliber (roughly)?

Ditto

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2017, 03:19:08 PM »
Uhh, it wouldn’t be even slightly difficult if they’d remove their heads from their asses. They could do shot for shot remakes of their higher rated animated movies and every dc fan and a shit ton of general moviegoers would go and love it.

A lighthearted Superman who doesn’t bend from truth or justice no matter what?  A dark and brooding Batman who ultimately reveals a softer side to very few? A lovable and competent flash? A cocky green lantern who learns to be humble? A pure and virtuous Wonder Woman who goes from naive to well versed in the evils of mankind but remains a beacon? Cyborg because they need a black guy? An aquaman who has little respect for ground dwellers but comes to realie he should protect and care for all life?

Just try to be remotely close to the characters the audience is paying to see. It’s not like we’re demanding Oscar winning movies every outing.

DC has amazing and iconic characters that we all already know and love, just put those characters on screen. There’s your winning formula.

Dlbiininja

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2017, 02:09:34 AM »
They spent too much time focusing on Batman & Superman. 
Of late trying to make everything that is DC related Grim.  When in general most characters don't have a grim mind state like Batman.
And neglecting the potential for other characters.  There was so much they could have done with the Flash series starting as a base and expanding out for ther characters.

The tv shows show potential for what could be done for a big screen despite how limited they are budgetary compared to a big screen budget.
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AP

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2017, 02:58:44 AM »
Y'know the real tragedy is that Henry Cavill seems like a really charismatic guy who can play a great Superman if given a good script (Whedon's influence in Justice League make him really likable).  He could've worked.

Dlbiininja

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2017, 03:08:19 AM »
I totally agree with you there AP.  They just need to stop trying to make Dceu so dark and brooding.  Let the characters be who their supposed to be.
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Uhtceare

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2017, 03:43:02 AM »
I don't see it. Cavill needs to be recast. Just making him smile a bit aint turning his robotic ass into Reeves.

Fifthchild

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2017, 06:08:05 PM »
Assuming you mean "why hasnt WB been able to launch a succesful shared cinematic universe"

1 Its a crowded market. Just in terms of superhero films you have several Marvel films and a couple of Fox films coming out every year. These are all expensive movies, their are only so many opening weekends a year they can be placed at without hard competition.

2 DCs plan was probably too modelled on Marvels in retrospect. The focus on building up to Justice League, even in a brief way, is so obviously analogous to what Marvel did with The Avengers. The Fox/X-Universe felt different at least in that respect.

3 Process. Marvel has a very story driven, hands off, style thats pretty analogous to how Pixar used to work. They dont always make the right decisions and they dont always avoid fucking up the story with outside concerns about trying to set up some other movie but its largely about a balance between a few core people working across many films trying to make what they think is the best story and the input of the particular creatives on that film. Lately they seem to be trusting the people they hire to take more risks - I think the Marvel of today would be pretty happy for Edgar Wright to have made the Ant Man film he wanted to make.

DC chose/allowed the wrong guy to assume this position in their universe. While Marvel has been accused of being overly controlling WB seemed to outsource all their creative decisions to Snyder. By the time they realised this had backfired the executives just kind of began pushing and pulling in different directions.

4 Luck - The Avengers was almost filmed based on a script by Zak Penn (wrote the first Hulk movie). Nobody wanted RDJ for Iron Man but Favreau kept pushing for him.

5 Bad Movies - at the end of the day if MOS & BvS had been better received Justice League would have had a big opening weekend at least.

therock

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Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2017, 06:41:23 PM »
One of the biggest problems I had with JL was making all the characters obscure, fighting an obscure villain in an obscure location.

Supes was "dead" & the world was on it's way to forgetting him.
Bats was no longer focussing on petty street crime but obsessed with the Parademons....with zero detective skills at that.
WW came across as a part time hero.
Aquaman was content with being a small town hero.
Flash was completely unknown & unsure of the hero mantle.
And Cyborg was too busy feeling sorry for himself to do any good for anyone else.

Then you have a villain who doesn't actually reveals himself to the world...so basically no one actually knows their existence is in danger.
Or the fact the they need heroes to save them...

Then finally you have the end battle in some obscure part of the planet where only a handful of residents' lives are at stake but whether they live or die doesn't really matter...

Whereas Marvel...the heroes are out & proud to the entire world, the danger is obvious & the villain's plans pretty much affect everyone.

Basically with JL...no one knew they existed, no one knew they joined together & lastly no one knew they were actually in danger.

That makes since when you starting early in the universe. Beacuase the start of the universe. So it year 1 for a lot of these guys

That why I kind of like the orginal idea of starting with a good JLA movie..and then branching out. Basicly they already been i a superhero buisness for a while...people know about them.  Then you can start with the supehro madness. Because a lot of these guys you kind of dont need an orgin

But they wanted to make it this weird middle ground. Where at first superman was the first. But then they wanted to do Dark knight return for some reason then he wasnt. Then WW shock them when it made money.  So they want to do more of those..so got to figure out if the now want he around for decade superheroing.

The thing they should of done is JLA movie with a young flash or Cyborg as our audience surrogates. I mean incredible didnt have to do orgin stories.  This would make them different from Marvel enough.