Herochat

What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?

Pillow Biter

  • *****
  • 1749
  • +3/-0
    • View Profile
What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« on: December 14, 2017, 02:06:50 PM »
I see two major possible factors, that may be working in combination:

1) This stuff is really difficult to do, and Marvel simply just has a great team that has built a great formula. But it really is tough to duplicate--executive skillz and talent matter!

2) Marvel's characters and universe are intrinsically better suited to making great movies--the characters are less hokey. It's easier to make them funny. You don't have to work around their crazy names and/or weaknesses (Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, weak to YELLOW, etc.) Also, the DCU architecture has always been very 'Trinity' focused, which can cause problems.

Anything else?

MTL76

  • ********
  • 9630
  • +1113/-11
  • "What if I know all your secrets, Your Eminence?"
    • View Profile
Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2017, 02:24:18 PM »
I disagree with the second premise. DC's characters are no more hokey than Marvel's especially considering that the movie versions are a clean slate. Weakness to yellow? Ditch it, who cares. The names? Captain America is just as hokey. Irom Man is a cooler name than Aquaman? Nah.

But making a successful combined universe is very difficult to do. We know this because it's so rarely done successfully. You need a group of people to oversee the whole things who have a strong vision and who are willing to take risks. They also need to be patient and lay the groundwork with individual films of quality before bringing them all together. You need individual creators who are very talented but who are willing to make concessions and accept limitations on what they would otherwise do, in order to keep all the properties on the same page. You need a large group actors who are really good but who will commit to multi-movie deals on a specific timeframe, which may limit their other projects. You need writers who can make strong contained stories that also incorporate elements of the shared universe.

This is hard!

DC pinned their hopes on a small group of people who were just a bad fit for this kind of thing. Their individual movies eliminated the best parts of the characters they were using. They used actors that were boring and who were given roles written without charisma. Their movies are boring and bombastic. They made their two biggest characters fight each other in the first crossover movie! THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS WAS NOT MEANT TO BE MAINSTREAM.

But they had the resources to do what Marvel did. FORGET the cross-over movie for at least the first five-six years and concentrate on good, stand-alone movies. DON'T put your universe the hands of one or two prima donna creators like Snyder. Put out dope, stand-alone Superman and Batman films (and don't use a guy like Affleck who is too big a name to tie down for ten+ years.) This should be easy, as these are two of the most marketable characters in movies. Use the goodwill and trust earned from those to put out a Wonder Woman and Aquaman movie. Put out Superman and Batman sequels. Put out a Flash movie. THEN bring them all together. Patience. Don't just introduce every character in a cutscene and have the cross-over movie right away.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 02:29:28 PM by MTL76 »


Minority Shareholder, Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles (CHOAM)

The Create A Team / Power Set Combo Compendium

Panthergod

  • *******
  • 6859
  • +37/-74
    • View Profile
Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2017, 02:31:38 PM »
They hired Snyder, who doesnt believe in Superman or DC comics as a concept. Period.

therock

  • ********
  • 8094
  • +29/-63
    • View Profile
Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2017, 02:35:04 PM »
Well it help marvel came first. So they were judge on different levels.  Like not every one starting out had to make an insane amount of money. Also it had a great start. If Iron man shit the bed..we may of not had an mcu.

most of DCEU so far has made profits. Just not Billions upond billions. Part of that is of course marketing and orgnazation.  For instance the whole shooting one movie, stopping and shooting another totaly different movie hurts you profits.  Suicide Squad shouldnt be a movie that needs to make 700 million to make a profit. That just riddicolus and bad buisness model

Disney had be accuse of having a heavy hand with director on both Disney and star wars. But it WORKS sometimes. You got a deffintly formular that works. So you may not get Edgar wright movie you wanted...but the movie will still at least be decent.  You may not see Frank Castle, or Jessica Jones show up in the main movie...but he out on netflix doing his thing..so who cares. You may not get unique Han Solo movie. But still probally be good...and you know your going to see it. It will still make a Billion regardless. They have a clear course. While DC freaks out to much. If they do that reboot that a HORRIBLE idea.  It shows them freaking out to much,


Also DC need to control the leaks and news. Like everything leaks from them and everone talks shit. Some of because it their not doing as great, others just bad leadership. Some of this news is untrue and click baity.  Like the whole..batman wont be in DC continuty story. And some of that become a self fullfilling prophecy. Seem they were trying to make the ben leaving batman happen. And may of did

DC has some great properties that can make money if they get less superman and batman obssess

constantine
DC dark universe
Booster and beetle would be a great comedy. Deadpoolish
Specter- Good horror movie
Lot of vertigo properties- Unwritten or a real Human target movie or series would be FANTASTIC.

None of these will make a BILLION. So it involve not going insane on a budget

Then stuff that can make a big profit
Legion
Shazam
New Gods


CW shows what you can do with these character. If you take your time and have fun. Some of it dark..like arrow or lighting. Or Gotham.  Others are light like supergirl and Flash. Depends on the character. It just they known how to do it on budget. Their crossover was fantastic.

Splitting it from the movie universe at the start was a mistake.

Kallor

  • ******
  • 2246
  • +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2017, 02:38:44 PM »
The mainstream currently likes superhero films funnier, or at the very least less serious.  Comic fans want things like an inspirational Superman and a Batman who doesn’t wantonly kill, something closer to the essences of the characters they like.

Snake-eyes

  • *****
  • 1966
  • +6/-7
    • View Profile
Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2017, 02:44:06 PM »
The problem is DC doesn't know what it's doing. it takes a special kind of moron to think making Superman dark and gritty or that doing a Death of Superman arc for the second movie was a good idea. don't even get me started on the sh!t show that was JL.

Ditto

  • *****
  • 1008
  • +4/-4
    • View Profile
Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2017, 02:45:06 PM »
Iron Man is absolutely a cooler name than fucking aquaman. Are you high?

MTL76

  • ********
  • 9630
  • +1113/-11
  • "What if I know all your secrets, Your Eminence?"
    • View Profile
Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2017, 02:47:00 PM »
The mainstream currently likes superhero films funnier, or at the very least less serious.  Comic fans want things like an inspirational Superman and a Batman who doesn’t wantonly kill, something closer to the essences of the characters they like.

You don't need to go full Guardians of the Galaxy, though. Winter Soldier is one of Marvel's best films, and it's not a comedy. It just isn't gloomy. It's a gripping action-adventure movie with the occasional light-hearted moment (i.e. Cap lapping Falcon while running.)

Tonally, it's a great benchmark to shoot for. So is Thor 1, Iron Man 1, and Avengers 1.



Minority Shareholder, Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles (CHOAM)

The Create A Team / Power Set Combo Compendium

MTL76

  • ********
  • 9630
  • +1113/-11
  • "What if I know all your secrets, Your Eminence?"
    • View Profile
Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2017, 02:48:48 PM »
Iron Man is absolutely a cooler name than fucking aquaman. Are you high?

You probably think Ditto is a great name too.


Minority Shareholder, Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles (CHOAM)

The Create A Team / Power Set Combo Compendium

80sBaby

  • *******
  • 5098
  • +23/-6
    • View Profile
Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2017, 03:22:12 PM »
The problem is that WB doesn't have any faith in their characters and so, doesn't really know what to do with them. It's no coincidence that the most well-received DCEU film, Wonder Woman, was given more of a hands-off approach (because the suits didn't really care or think it'd sell, ironically.)

What they need to do, first and foremost, is make sure that the audience cares about the central characters. that's how franchises are built and what keeps fans coming back for sequel after sequel. If your main characters are unlikeable then who would come watch them a second, third or fourth time?

Ditto

  • *****
  • 1008
  • +4/-4
    • View Profile
Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2017, 03:50:24 PM »
Iron Man is absolutely a cooler name than fucking aquaman. Are you high?


Thanos6

  • *****
  • 1397
  • +14/-14
    • View Profile
Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2017, 04:42:18 PM »
One of the problems is the same problem that plagued Amazing Spider-Man 2.  Trying too hard to force the shared universe. You have to make the audience want it and look forward to it, not simply foist it on them right out the gate.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 12:11:47 AM by Thanos6 »
Truten forever!

Uhtceare

  • ****
  • 936
  • +12/-3
    • View Profile
Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2017, 04:56:03 PM »
They tend to go with whatever worked last time. Their last really successful superhero franchise was the Nolan Batman trilogy. So they ripped it off as much as they could, right down to turning Lex fucking Luthor into the Joker. Cuz hey, Ledger Joker was both a commercial and critical success.

The only reason Wonder Woman was good was because none of the executives gave a fuck about her, so the creative team was allowed to make her something other than Batman with tits.

AP

  • ********
  • 15623
  • +64/-50
    • View Profile
Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2017, 05:26:42 PM »
One of the problems is the same problem that plagued Amazing Spider-Man 2.  Trying to hard to force the shared universe. You have to make the audience want it and look forward to it, not simply foist it on them right out the gate.

Exactamundo.  If they paced themselves and planned things out, they could've easily had a shared universe to compete against Marvel.

Also not having Snyder is a good idea.

therock

  • ********
  • 8094
  • +29/-63
    • View Profile
Re: What, at core, is wrong with the DCEU?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2017, 06:58:45 PM »
Here the thing I like man of steal.  It was a good start for a stand alone. Not really forcing in continuty. But they were freaked out because of the critics. So instead of doing a sequel... they were

Batman does well...we got to do BATMAN!!!. So they skip the sequel. And didnt really have a full develop clark Kent...which you need for superman. You need the superman family...the lightnest to contrast with the batman

It made money..but they freak out again

So then they redid suicide Squad the one story that SHOULD be dark.  And soften them up to much and made it uneven...cutting out big plot lines. And made Harely and Joker the most loving and functional couple in any superman universe..instead of the mad love they are.  Joker and suicide squad really going at it would be good. They did in the cartoon movie and it was great. But nope.

But Harely was popular...so FOUR FUCKING harley movie...four of them. Thats insane.


They leave WW alone because they didnt give a fuck. Make a fortune. Instead of learning..maybe leave the creators alone...they redo a lot of JLA...recutting the movie.  And because it was late reshoots...they had to deal with mustage gate.   And they have to make money and profit for two movies combined that actully run

Now they freaking out again with a confusing reboot.

I get the idea of not doing a orgin story for every character.  That was there plan for when Common was green lantern. To start with a team movie..and branch out. Back when Mad max miller was directing. But this middle ground a little odd.

They should of ran their own race and not think they going to be marvel so quick. Maybe you wont make a billion. But a couple of 600 to 800 million dollar movies..good. Just dont make movies where 700 million only breaking evne