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Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman

Abhilegend

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Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2017, 09:49:55 PM »
Like Shuruku suggests, he looked like a real force early Post-Crisis during his time in JLI but has anyone ever called him 'second only to Superman in strength' as has been done with WW?

Well, that's the thing. Diana's stock has been on the rise for 20-odd years now, but while the "second only to Superman" helped to kick that off, it also reinforced the idea that even on her best day she's still a step below Clark. As much as some writers want to push her, none of them seem willing to go that one step further and say she's actually equal to or more powerful than him, perhaps in part because she's a woman.

J'Onn isn't held down by a (possibly sexist) glass ceiling in that way. His pushes have been much more short-lived than Diana's, due to his lack on an ongoing solo title, but during the post-Crisis years, he was occasionally spoken of as Superman's equal or better in a way Diana wasn't.















That last one was backed up by actions as well as words. Circe empowered a new male Cheetah, who easily defeated Superman and was said to have a punch like Diana or Captain Marvel.









He didn't fare half as well against J'Onn though.







There were writers who suggested Diana was stronger than J'Onn. This letters column from a Byrne Wonder Woman issues makes it clear that Diana was stronger than J'Onn as far as that book's creative team were concerned (although they resorted to a loophole regarding Captain Marvel).





And this scene from another Wonder Woman issue shortly after Byrne's run clearly backs up Diana's "second only" status.





I'm not 100% certain, but I have a feeling Gail Simone may have ranked Diana a step above J'Onn on a message board at some point, and I suspect Kurt Busiek would've ranked Diana over J'Onn too, based on how he wrote her. So it's a mixed picture, like I said.

Have we ever seen their strength directly compared?

In a practical sense? Not really. They sort of fought a couple of times post-Crisis, but those didn't involve enough of a physical exchange to draw any useful comparison from.
If you are talking about WW 175 Jiminez had Circe weaken Superman.

Quote
quote:
Re: The Male Cheetah vs. Superman
Just as a behind the scenes note, I remember how difficult it was to even get that scene in the book. It was an enormous hurdle to convince the editors of the notion that the Cheetah, even god-powered, fast enough to fight Wonder Woman, and magical in nature, could sneak up on Superman and tackle him. I remember having to layer in Circe's magic sphere to help deaden Superman's senses and powers even further, and it was understood that this was a one time deal. They basically held their nose at the idea and let me do it, although I think my own editor at the time understood what such an attack could do for Cheetah, in terms of raising the character's viability as a high-level villain.
For what it's worth, I think it helped that it was a male villain. I don't think the editors ever would have approved of a successful attack on Superman if it was the Barbara Minerva Cheetah, or another female version of her.
Just my memories on the topic.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?296775-Wonder-Woman-s-FOES-Most-Amazing-Feats/page3

The link is dead as the forum was rebooted.

Commander

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Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2017, 12:49:13 AM »
Well, Diana has been pushed hard to be the only one who can stop Superman and vice-versa in case they go rogue.

Even in the DCA, Capt Marvel was defeated by Superman however, he could not take down Wonder Woman until he saw through the illusion and allowed himself to get pummeled.

Another push given was Batman himself stating that WW is the greatest melee fighter on the planet.

There have been multiple times they have been pushed by DC as the Yin and Yang. While WW has yet to take down Superman in the current universe, DC pushed the envelope in the Injustice universe where she beat the crap out of Superman. However, Batman has indicated that there will be a time Diana will kill him and he won't have the heart to kill her.

So where does that leave Martian Manhunter? Probably just like in the DCA, as the heart of the JLA. When it comes to beings like Preus or Zod. You don't call Capt Marvel or Martian Manhunter. You look for Superman or Wonder Woman.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2017, 10:23:09 AM »
If you are talking about WW 175 Jiminez had Circe weaken Superman.

Quote
quote:
Re: The Male Cheetah vs. Superman
Just as a behind the scenes note, I remember how difficult it was to even get that scene in the book. It was an enormous hurdle to convince the editors of the notion that the Cheetah, even god-powered, fast enough to fight Wonder Woman, and magical in nature, could sneak up on Superman and tackle him. I remember having to layer in Circe's magic sphere to help deaden Superman's senses and powers even further, and it was understood that this was a one time deal. They basically held their nose at the idea and let me do it, although I think my own editor at the time understood what such an attack could do for Cheetah, in terms of raising the character's viability as a high-level villain.
For what it's worth, I think it helped that it was a male villain. I don't think the editors ever would have approved of a successful attack on Superman if it was the Barbara Minerva Cheetah, or another female version of her.
Just my memories on the topic.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?296775-Wonder-Woman-s-FOES-Most-Amazing-Feats/page3

The link is dead as the forum was rebooted.

I'm not sure how to take that. It's clear from the story that Circe's magic was shielding areas of that building from Superman's senses. Superman being weakened in general though wasn't even vaguely hinted at, which is strange if it was Jimenez's intent. I also sense some possible variance between Jimenez and his editor in that quote, like maybe Jimenez told the editor that Superman was weakened to get it printed, but deliberately left that detail out of the story.

Either way, Superman does specifically compare the strength of the male Cheetah to Diana and Captain Marvel. That, combined with how decisively J'Onn dealt with this Cheetah, and the statement that J'Onn was arguably the most powerful member of the JLA, strongly suggests that J'Onn was above Diana as far as Jimenez was concerned.

Interesting that the quote does suggest there's some ingrained sexism preventing female characters from upstaging Superman though.

fangirl101

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Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2017, 01:40:07 PM »
If you are talking about WW 175 Jiminez had Circe weaken Superman.

Quote
quote:
Re: The Male Cheetah vs. Superman
Just as a behind the scenes note, I remember how difficult it was to even get that scene in the book. It was an enormous hurdle to convince the editors of the notion that the Cheetah, even god-powered, fast enough to fight Wonder Woman, and magical in nature, could sneak up on Superman and tackle him. I remember having to layer in Circe's magic sphere to help deaden Superman's senses and powers even further, and it was understood that this was a one time deal. They basically held their nose at the idea and let me do it, although I think my own editor at the time understood what such an attack could do for Cheetah, in terms of raising the character's viability as a high-level villain.
For what it's worth, I think it helped that it was a male villain. I don't think the editors ever would have approved of a successful attack on Superman if it was the Barbara Minerva Cheetah, or another female version of her.
Just my memories on the topic.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?296775-Wonder-Woman-s-FOES-Most-Amazing-Feats/page3

The link is dead as the forum was rebooted.

I'm not sure how to take that. It's clear from the story that Circe's magic was shielding areas of that building from Superman's senses. Superman being weakened in general though wasn't even vaguely hinted at, which is strange if it was Jimenez's intent. I also sense some possible variance between Jimenez and his editor in that quote, like maybe Jimenez told the editor that Superman was weakened to get it printed, but deliberately left that detail out of the story.

Either way, Superman does specifically compare the strength of the male Cheetah to Diana and Captain Marvel. That, combined with how decisively J'Onn dealt with this Cheetah, and the statement that J'Onn was arguably the most powerful member of the JLA, strongly suggests that J'Onn was above Diana as far as Jimenez was concerned.

Interesting that the quote does suggest there's some ingrained sexism preventing female characters from upstaging Superman though.
Then New 52 happens and Female Cheetah Easily pierces Supermans' skin. And it is even stated because she is so strong that she can do that. Nothing to do with magic. They got over their sexism. And with WW being the only good DC movie, they better really get over it fast.

Abhilegend

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Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 09:43:25 PM »
If you are talking about WW 175 Jiminez had Circe weaken Superman.

Quote
quote:
Re: The Male Cheetah vs. Superman
Just as a behind the scenes note, I remember how difficult it was to even get that scene in the book. It was an enormous hurdle to convince the editors of the notion that the Cheetah, even god-powered, fast enough to fight Wonder Woman, and magical in nature, could sneak up on Superman and tackle him. I remember having to layer in Circe's magic sphere to help deaden Superman's senses and powers even further, and it was understood that this was a one time deal. They basically held their nose at the idea and let me do it, although I think my own editor at the time understood what such an attack could do for Cheetah, in terms of raising the character's viability as a high-level villain.
For what it's worth, I think it helped that it was a male villain. I don't think the editors ever would have approved of a successful attack on Superman if it was the Barbara Minerva Cheetah, or another female version of her.
Just my memories on the topic.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?296775-Wonder-Woman-s-FOES-Most-Amazing-Feats/page3

The link is dead as the forum was rebooted.

I'm not sure how to take that. It's clear from the story that Circe's magic was shielding areas of that building from Superman's senses. Superman being weakened in general though wasn't even vaguely hinted at, which is strange if it was Jimenez's intent. I also sense some possible variance between Jimenez and his editor in that quote, like maybe Jimenez told the editor that Superman was weakened to get it printed, but deliberately left that detail out of the story.


Maybe.
Quote


Either way, Superman does specifically compare the strength of the male Cheetah to Diana and Captain Marvel. That, combined with how decisively J'Onn dealt with this Cheetah, and the statement that J'Onn was arguably the most powerful member of the JLA, strongly suggests that J'Onn was above Diana as far as Jimenez was concerned.


Not really, J'onn punched Cheetah and he wasn't shown to be koed. Diana did the same to Cheetah.

Further, Superman did not compare Cheetah's strength to J'onn. He compared it to Cap or Diana and Cap was a historical rival to Superman.

There is nothing to indicate J'onn was stronger than Superman in that story.
Quote


Interesting that the quote does suggest there's some ingrained sexism preventing female characters from upstaging Superman though.
Eh, Jiminez is hypocrite like that. Dude retconned Lex Luthor's entire history as a sham so that he could prop his sister.

Sick Nick

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Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2017, 02:44:28 PM »
I think the post-Crisis period was sort of a transition from how they compared pre-Crisis, to what we have now. Diana seemed lower down the totem pole early on, but she gradually rose in stature under writers like Byrne, Rucka and Simone in particular, whereas J'Onn stagnated, or maybe even fell back a bit. There were mixed signals all over the place though, with J'Onn periodically being described as a peer to Superman, or occasionally more powerful than him. It'd probably be fair to say that post-Crisis J'Onn had a wider range than Diana, falling above and below her tat various points.

I’m not so sure about Diana rising through the ranks later actually ... Action 600 appeared very soon after WW’s debut and the fight she had with Supes was reminiscent of their dCAU fight, very even. Of course Supes became more powerful over time but Diana’s not the only character who struggled with Byrne Superman. Orion did, even Darkseid. What’s interesting is that Diana took a degree in badass power just in the first few issues under Perez. She went from just barely beating the other Amazons in boulder rolling and nearly getting her arm ripped out catching a bomb with her lasso to KOing a cat the size of an Antarctosaurus with one punch just 3 issues later. It’s like Perez was purposefully keeping her power down early on (perhaps in line with Pre Crisis WW) but then changed his mind. Maybe he and Byrne decided on the Supes fight and took the decision to beef her up.

shadowknight

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Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2017, 04:07:11 PM »
Here's a few things to think about.

1. SM was caught by surprise by the male Cheetah

2. Depending on the writer Supernatural or Magic creatures gives SM fits, MM doesn't suffer from that weakness

3.  I remember we dissecting that issues several yrs ago ad-naseum. SM was weakened by  Circle's magic period.

4. Like I said b4 MM will occasionally gets props. But SM will by at least a 20-1 margin will get more and unlike MM his statement is almost always backed up by feats.

5. All the examples of MM use caveats, "like almost as strong or arguably the most powerful". If someone gets a 100(SM) on a test and someone else get a 95(MM) it can be argued he did almost as well. That doesn't mean there isn't someone who didn't do even better 97 (WW or CM)

6. As for the statement of "MM being almost as strong as SM". To an outside observer someone who can lift 100,000 tons MM will look almost as strong as someone who can lift in excess of 100 trillions SM if they both take turns lifting the Empire State Building. But have them take turns trying to affect the Moon the strength difference becomes readily apparent. 

7. Here's a another  example to deal with "arguably the most powerful hero". Hercules is among the strongest Marvel Hero there's  but Phoenix b/c of her versatility is arguably  the most powerful hero or heroine but that doesn't mean she's stronger than Hercules.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2017, 04:51:03 PM »
I’m not so sure about Diana rising through the ranks later actually ... Action 600 appeared very soon after WW’s debut and the fight she had with Supes was reminiscent of their dCAU fight, very even. Of course Supes became more powerful over time but Diana’s not the only character who struggled with Byrne Superman. Orion did, even Darkseid. What’s interesting is that Diana took a degree in badass power just in the first few issues under Perez. She went from just barely beating the other Amazons in boulder rolling and nearly getting her arm ripped out catching a bomb with her lasso to KOing a cat the size of an Antarctosaurus with one punch just 3 issues later. It’s like Perez was purposefully keeping her power down early on (perhaps in line with Pre Crisis WW) but then changed his mind. Maybe he and Byrne decided on the Supes fight and took the decision to beef her up.

You're putting way more stock in the Action #600 fight than I do. It was made clear that Clark and Diana never fought in earnest there; they were immediately suspicious as soon as their imposters ducked out of sight, and only tested each other's level of power initially, after which they staged the rest of the fight in order to make their way over to where Darkseid was.
















fangirl101

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Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2017, 05:00:24 PM »
I’m not so sure about Diana rising through the ranks later actually ... Action 600 appeared very soon after WW’s debut and the fight she had with Supes was reminiscent of their dCAU fight, very even. Of course Supes became more powerful over time but Diana’s not the only character who struggled with Byrne Superman. Orion did, even Darkseid. What’s interesting is that Diana took a degree in badass power just in the first few issues under Perez. She went from just barely beating the other Amazons in boulder rolling and nearly getting her arm ripped out catching a bomb with her lasso to KOing a cat the size of an Antarctosaurus with one punch just 3 issues later. It’s like Perez was purposefully keeping her power down early on (perhaps in line with Pre Crisis WW) but then changed his mind. Maybe he and Byrne decided on the Supes fight and took the decision to beef her up.

You're putting way more stock in the Action #600 fight than I do. It was made clear that Clark and Diana never fought in earnest there; they were immediately suspicious as soon as their imposters ducked out of sight, and only tested each other's level of power initially, after which they staged the rest of the fight in order to make their way over to where Darkseid was.
















Do you want me to post WW 101 which recollect this fight and it is made clear that Superman MIGHT be the only mortal more powerful than  she?

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2017, 05:15:47 PM »
Do you want me to post WW 101 which recollect this fight and it is made clear that Superman MIGHT be the only mortal more powerful than  she?

That statement doesn't change the fact that the battle itself was bogus, and therefore meaningless as evidence. The statement is evidence, but that statement was only made in WW #102, published in 1995, not in ACTION #600, published in 1988.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2017, 06:56:48 PM »
Either way, Superman does specifically compare the strength of the male Cheetah to Diana and Captain Marvel. That, combined with how decisively J'Onn dealt with this Cheetah, and the statement that J'Onn was arguably the most powerful member of the JLA, strongly suggests that J'Onn was above Diana as far as Jimenez was concerned.

Not really, J'onn punched Cheetah and he wasn't shown to be koed. Diana did the same to Cheetah.

Cheetah wasn't shown to be KOed by J'Onn's punch, but he was sent flying and wasn't seen again for the rest of the story. His "Oh dear god..." comment also suggests he knew he was screwed against J'Onn.

Cheetah didn't show any fear of Wonder Woman, and took repeated blows from her without looking anywhere near KOed.

Further, Superman did not compare Cheetah's strength to J'onn. He compared it to Cap or Diana and Cap was a historical rival to Superman.

But what's true under other writers isn't necessarily true under Jimenez. Diana clearly looked weaker than Superman in that story, and if Diana and CM were equal in Jimenez's mind, that'd make Jimenez's CM weaker than Clark too.

There is nothing to indicate J'onn was stronger than Superman in that story.

Nothing clear-cut, but J'Onn dealt with Cheetah better than Superman did, and the way Cheetah went flying suggests he was on the receiving end of a punch, i.e. J'Onn's strength.

Abhilegend

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Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2017, 09:40:00 PM »
Either way, Superman does specifically compare the strength of the male Cheetah to Diana and Captain Marvel. That, combined with how decisively J'Onn dealt with this Cheetah, and the statement that J'Onn was arguably the most powerful member of the JLA, strongly suggests that J'Onn was above Diana as far as Jimenez was concerned.

Not really, J'onn punched Cheetah and he wasn't shown to be koed. Diana did the same to Cheetah.

Cheetah wasn't shown to be KOed by J'Onn's punch, but he was sent flying and wasn't seen again for the rest of the story. His "Oh dear god..." comment also suggests he knew he was screwed against J'Onn.


Maybe because he was hyped as most powerful of League but Cheetah was never shown to be koed.
Quote


Cheetah didn't show any fear of Wonder Woman, and took repeated blows from her without looking anywhere near KOed.


Likewise from J'onn.
Quote


Further, Superman did not compare Cheetah's strength to J'onn. He compared it to Cap or Diana and Cap was a historical rival to Superman.

But what's true under other writers isn't necessarily true under Jimenez. Diana clearly looked weaker than Superman in that story, and if Diana and CM were equal in Jimenez's mind, that'd make Jimenez's CM weaker than Clark too.


What does that tells you about J'onn? J'onn was stated to be the most powerful but he wasn't stated to be stronger than Diana.
Quote


There is nothing to indicate J'onn was stronger than Superman in that story.

Nothing clear-cut, but J'Onn dealt with Cheetah better than Superman did, and the way Cheetah went flying suggests he was on the receiving end of a punch, i.e. J'Onn's strength.
Because Superman was weakened as per the writer.

If Cheetah was only as strong as Diana who looked significantly weaker than Superman next issue, it's really inconsistent with Cheetah overpowering Superman unless he was weakened.

I know you don't miss any chance of propping J'onn over Superman but this is just ridiculous.