Herochat

Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman

Sick Nick

  • **
  • 484
  • +5/-0
    • View Profile
Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« on: December 05, 2017, 05:27:11 PM »
Who wins an arm wrestle, assuming J’onn isn’t shapeshifting?

1. Pre-crisis - neither really came close to Superman but J’onn was at least able to knock the Man of Steel around a bit in the Warworld storyline. He also got a smidge more reaction out of Mongul with his punch than WW did, even if it was the difference between being hit by a three year old and a two year old.

2. Post- Crisis ... I wanna say WW but mainly because of all the ‘second only to Superman’ statements rather than anything concrete. J’onn did OK against Gray Man- possessed Cap Marvel so it should be open to debate.

3. DCAU - veering more towards WW. I think the creators said they purposefully played down MM’s muscles and stressed his other abilities, whereas WW was probably the strongest hero on the show after Superman, Lobo and maybe CM

3. Nu-52 - no idea.

The Shuruku Demon

  • ******
  • 2015
  • +16/-5
    • View Profile
Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2017, 07:57:31 PM »
I think the post-Crisis period was sort of a transition from how they compared pre-Crisis, to what we have now. Diana seemed lower down the totem pole early on, but she gradually rose in stature under writers like Byrne, Rucka and Simone in particular, whereas J'Onn stagnated, or maybe even fell back a bit. There were mixed signals all over the place though, with J'Onn periodically being described as a peer to Superman, or occasionally more powerful than him. It'd probably be fair to say that post-Crisis J'Onn had a wider range than Diana, falling above and below her at various points.

Commander

  • **
  • 374
  • +16/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2017, 11:40:10 PM »
All WW.

Sick Nick

  • **
  • 484
  • +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2017, 04:42:27 AM »
I know this topic has been done to death and resurrected and then killed again many times over the years but what evidence is there? I've seen very little of J'onn's abilities Pre-Crisis outside of that Warworld story. Like Shuruku suggests, he looked like a real force early Post-Crisis during his time in JLI but has anyone ever called him 'second only to Superman in strength' as has been done with WW? Have we ever seen their strength directly compared? And how are things nowadays?

Almighty Tallest

  • *****
  • 1867
  • +2/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2017, 05:18:45 AM »
I remember Black Lantern Manhunter got in his feels and stated people kept forgetting he was just as strong as Superman...before he hit a building with another building.

MPagar

  • *
  • 164
  • +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2017, 07:33:41 AM »
Like Shuruku suggests, he looked like a real force early Post-Crisis during his time in JLI but has anyone ever called him 'second only to Superman in strength' as has been done with WW?

I’d go as far as to say that J’onn has probably had more verbal wank than Wonder Woman for a long while, though as mentioned earlier, much more fluctuating displays.

Abhilegend

  • *******
  • 5577
  • +21/-25
    • View Profile
Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2017, 11:26:34 AM »
Yeah, in one WW story, J'onn was stated to be as strong as Superman and Daxamites.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111151571/4964990-5727019304-49649.jpg


fangirl101

  • ********
  • 11460
  • +36/-51
  • Didn't see Wonder Woman yet so no spoilers BITCHES
    • View Profile
Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2017, 11:33:18 AM »
Yeah, in one WW story, J'onn was stated to be as strong as Superman and Daxamites.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111151571/4964990-5727019304-49649.jpg
no. The daxamites werr STRONGER than Superman at that point. Fuck face. And that wasn't even Diana talking. She still won that fight.

fangirl101

  • ********
  • 11460
  • +36/-51
  • Didn't see Wonder Woman yet so no spoilers BITCHES
    • View Profile
Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2017, 12:01:08 PM »
During the DoomsdayWars, MM got one shot by Doomsday. While it took several shots from Doomsday to down Diana. And she still wasn't Ko'd. Her blows Actually affected Doomsday while Orion and MM together couldn't last a minute against DD.

WW>MM.

Sick Nick

  • **
  • 484
  • +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2017, 12:07:53 PM »
Yeah, in one WW story, J'onn was stated to be as strong as Superman and Daxamites.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111151571/4964990-5727019304-49649.jpg

Man, that's some mediocre art.

Abhilegend

  • *******
  • 5577
  • +21/-25
    • View Profile
Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2017, 12:10:00 PM »
Yup

fangirl101

  • ********
  • 11460
  • +36/-51
  • Didn't see Wonder Woman yet so no spoilers BITCHES
    • View Profile
Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2017, 12:22:20 PM »
Yeah, in one WW story, J'onn was stated to be as strong as Superman and Daxamites.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111151571/4964990-5727019304-49649.jpg

Man, that's some mediocre art.
No. It was plain awful art.

shadowknight

  • *****
  • 1657
  • +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2017, 12:42:11 PM »
I remember Black Lantern Manhunter got in his feels and stated people kept forgetting he was just as strong as Superman...before he hit a building with another building.
MM does get occasionally jocked verbally, but unfortunately feats don't back it up. B/C he's usually the first to fall to the big bad of the month just in time for SM to come in and save the day the next month. The thing is SM is by far the most jocked character  in the DCU and for him the feats back it up. MM suffers from 4  problems.

1. SM is by far more popular and well known than him. I would go as far to say  were DC to lose SM to Marvel for example you would subtract 25%-30% of the DCU titles, history, fan base and money generation. Were DC to lose MM to Marvel at most you'd  subtract 1% of DCU history, fan base, no titles would be lost and no money generation. It's a know fact that a world champion race horse or stud bull will get the  best treatment possible no matter the cost while an also ran will get the leftovers. SM is DCU Secretariat while MM is the also ran.

2. MM has very few fans compared to SM, DC not going to alienate SM fans by having MM outshine their favorite

3. While MM is the swiss army knife of the SH world, in many ways his very versatility is his  downfall. He's very good at a lot of things but outside of Shape-shifting and TP he isn't great at anything. Look at most of the popular SH and you'll notice they all have a particular hook that makes them unique. Hulk is the strongest 1 there's, Flash is the fastest hero there's, Batman is the best  SH you can be without powers as well as a bada*s detective and MA, Dr Strange & Dr Fate are the best mages bar none. But you ask an average SH fan about MM and the usual answer with be a Green SM wannabe with Shape shifting and TP add insult to injury he's also the last survivor of his race and he also a great detective. When you add it all up makes him a Gestalt SM and Batman, in which Batman can arguably be described as DCU number 2 stud horse. To me that was lazy writing in the extreme to turn him after Crisis into another last of his race, this was a nail in his coffin as a unique character. Which further reminded  people of his resemblance to SM.

4. There's no handbook on how to write MM and make him unique or important in the DCU. Gods get uppity call WW,  need a problem solved call Batman, an interstellar race happens to want to Invade the Earth call SM. Want a tragic hero who has  problems relating with people call Batman, want a hero that a godlike being who pretends to be normal call SM, want a demi-god with a self impose mission to improve humanity call WW. MM has been written by various writers into all of the those various interpretations, the problem is those interpretations are already being filled by more popular heroes.

So this is my long winded way of saying MM is doomed to be a distant 4 after SM, WW and Cap Marvel  in the DCU pantheon of SH in STR, Durability and Formabilty. Orion who's a God isn't really a SH but  more of a warrior first and foremost.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 12:49:44 PM by shadowknight »

The Shuruku Demon

  • ******
  • 2015
  • +16/-5
    • View Profile
Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2017, 05:39:54 PM »
Like Shuruku suggests, he looked like a real force early Post-Crisis during his time in JLI but has anyone ever called him 'second only to Superman in strength' as has been done with WW?

Well, that's the thing. Diana's stock has been on the rise for 20-odd years now, but while the "second only to Superman" helped to kick that off, it also reinforced the idea that even on her best day she's still a step below Clark. As much as some writers want to push her, none of them seem willing to go that one step further and say she's actually equal to or more powerful than him, perhaps in part because she's a woman.

J'Onn isn't held down by a (possibly sexist) glass ceiling in that way. His pushes have been much more short-lived than Diana's, due to his lack on an ongoing solo title, but during the post-Crisis years, he was occasionally spoken of as Superman's equal or better in a way Diana wasn't.















That last one was backed up by actions as well as words. Circe empowered a new male Cheetah, who easily defeated Superman and was said to have a punch like Diana or Captain Marvel.









He didn't fare half as well against J'Onn though.







There were writers who suggested Diana was stronger than J'Onn. This letters column from a Byrne Wonder Woman issues makes it clear that Diana was stronger than J'Onn as far as that book's creative team were concerned (although they resorted to a loophole regarding Captain Marvel).





And this scene from another Wonder Woman issue shortly after Byrne's run clearly backs up Diana's "second only" status.





I'm not 100% certain, but I have a feeling Gail Simone may have ranked Diana a step above J'Onn on a message board at some point, and I suspect Kurt Busiek would've ranked Diana over J'Onn too, based on how he wrote her. So it's a mixed picture, like I said.

Have we ever seen their strength directly compared?

In a practical sense? Not really. They sort of fought a couple of times post-Crisis, but those didn't involve enough of a physical exchange to draw any useful comparison from.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 05:45:15 PM by The Shuruku Demon »

shadowknight

  • *****
  • 1657
  • +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Martian Manhunter vs Wonder Woman
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2017, 06:14:55 PM »
IIRC Gail came on the DC Drone site once several yrs ago when it was Superhero-chat  and pretty much said WW is second to SM in STR, CM is 3rd and MM is 4th. MY only complaint is the fact CM  has always been shown closer to SM strenghtwise than WW. On the other hand Gail could simply be of the opinion this is CM  showing after he shares his powers with his sister and CM jr, it could be the times CM has fought SM or arm wrestled him his sister or CM jr aren't calling on his power. This is just an educated guess but it might explain John Byrne belief that SM has become much more powerful because in his mind Black Adam should be  more powerful than SM since he doesn't share his powers.