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Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge

Abhilegend

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2017, 09:42:05 PM »
Good pick-up but that's a major outlier for Skurge. The whole point of that storyline was to show how useless the Thor Corps were, compared with the real deal. Thor himself has never struggled against Skurge like that, and as Imp said, much weaker characters than Thor have beaten the Executioner fairly easily. I remember Giant Man tossing him around in an early Avengers issue. Skurge was historically Wonder Man's punching bag as well and the Hulk had no problems with him.


I don't recall any fights between Simon and Skurge. Hercules fought Skurge and won but it was back and forth unlike Ares who gets overpowered as soon as Hercules gets serious.

Hulk would bend over Ares any day of the week.
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Ares has had some shocking showings over the years, against the likes of Thor (with his strength magnified) and Ikaris but he's had a few decent showings in more recent years.
Like? He got overpowered by Venom symbiote in Dark Avengers. He was given a lot of lip service but failed spectacularly as always.

Sick Nick

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2017, 04:11:13 AM »
I don't recall any fights between Simon and Skurge.

Wondy's own ongoing.

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Hercules fought Skurge and won but it was back and forth unlike Ares who gets overpowered as soon as Hercules gets serious.

After Ares was rebooted, he and Herc had a relatively decent scrap. It was clear Herc was a lot stronger but Ares held his own.

Ares also had Namor on the ropes in Olympus, until Namor took the fight underwater.

Didn't Ares also have a reasonably decent showing against the upgraded Hippolyta? Again, it was clear she was stronger but there's no shame in that ... Hippolyta's at least as strong as She-Hulk.

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Hulk would bend over Ares any day of the week.
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As badly as he did Skurge?

Abhilegend

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2017, 09:30:28 AM »
I don't recall any fights between Simon and Skurge.

Wondy's own ongoing.


No, it was Avengers 10 where Simon was first introduced. And Stan Lee wrote Skurge as punching bag mostly. His later showings had him more formidable.
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Hercules fought Skurge and won but it was back and forth unlike Ares who gets overpowered as soon as Hercules gets serious.

After Ares was rebooted, he and Herc had a relatively decent scrap. It was clear Herc was a lot stronger but Ares held his own.


Not really. Herc was weakened by Hydra's venom and still overpowered Ares completely when he was pushed.
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Ares also had Namor on the ropes in Olympus, until Namor took the fight underwater.


Yes, weakened Namor. Skurge oneshotted Namor on land in Defenders IIRC.
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Didn't Ares also have a reasonably decent showing against the upgraded Hippolyta? Again, it was clear she was stronger but there's no shame in that ... Hippolyta's at least as strong as She-Hulk.


I highly doubt Skurge was ever shown weaker than Jen.
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Hulk would bend over Ares any day of the week.


As badly as he did Skurge?
Skurge has reasonably good showings against Hulk in Hulk 102 and Defenders.

Ares would get molested by Hulk in any incarnation. Even mindless Hulk who was straight up said to be matched by Thor basically manhandled Ares in Hulk/Hercules.

Mightily Oats

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2017, 05:39:10 PM »
Also I don't think Ares has ever been given this kind of showing.



Skurge has also defeated Namor in Defenders who always had Ares' number even in modern days.
That the same group of guys that Loki made look like assholes that everyone thinks was a great showing for Loki?

Not sure why it should be dismissed as “well Skurge got lucky”

Abhilegend

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2017, 09:50:55 PM »
Yeah.

Red Exodus

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2017, 10:34:00 PM »
Its a great showing for Skurge, but a TERRIBLE one for Beta Ray Bill and
Eric Masterson.

Kallor

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2017, 11:08:20 PM »
Also I don't think Ares has ever been given this kind of showing.



Skurge has also defeated Namor in Defenders who always had Ares' number even in modern days.
That the same group of guys that Loki made look like assholes that everyone thinks was a great showing for Loki?

Not sure why it should be dismissed as “well Skurge got lucky”

I don't think it should be, it's consistent with Defalco's view on the Executioner powers.  Much like Ares being somewhat re-invented during his last modern run, Defalco did some renovating with Skurge and the Bloodaxe throughout his Thor series that has pretty much stuck through the following writers in the rare appearances of Skurge or his weapon. 

Kallor

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2017, 11:11:55 PM »
Its a great showing for Skurge, but a TERRIBLE one for Beta Ray Bill and
Eric Masterson.

I don't think it is.  It might feel that way if you're of the opinion that Skurge's norm is losing to Balder (it's not), but it looks pretty plausible to me for a guy almost as strong as Thor with a comparable weapon.

Note that Beta Ray Bill, the only one of that group who should rightly have little trouble with Skurge is blindsided from behind after making the point that experience is important.  Skurge then goes on to have a good showing against the two inexperienced rookie Thors before getting beat by them.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2017, 03:21:17 PM »
I think DeFalco had a high-end view of Skurge compared to most other writers. If you look at the OHOTMU strength rankings of Skurge and Bloodaxe (Jackie Lukus), Jackie was rated Class 100, while Skurge was down at 65 tons. That could be taken to mean that the Bloodaxe made Jackie stronger than it's original owner, but that's not very intuitive, and considering how impressive Skurge himself looked under DeFalco, I think he probably intended both of them to be near Thor-level in strength. As Kallor intimated, DeFalco also pumped up the Bloodaxe itself quite a bit. It had some good showings before that, but he really solidified it as a Mjolnir-class weapon. So what you're basically looking at with those Thor Corps scans is Skurge at the very top of his game.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 03:25:34 PM by The Shuruku Demon »

pittfox

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2017, 12:43:04 AM »
This was a good match up. Went Skurge.

Sick Nick

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2017, 05:08:42 PM »
No, it was Avengers 10 where Simon was first introduced. And Stan Lee wrote Skurge as punching bag mostly. His later showings had him more formidable.


They fought again in Wondy's ongoing and Simon dominated. I don't think Skurge's later showings have been much more impressive, the DeFalco one aside - Thor never really had problems with the Executioner.

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Not really. Herc was weakened by Hydra's venom and still overpowered Ares completely when he was pushed.


Skurge is stronger than Ares, as I've stated all the way along, but he's not really achieved much more, despite having an incredibly powerful axe.

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Yes, weakened Namor. Skurge oneshotted Namor on land in Defenders IIRC.


He'd been on land for a while but he wasn't all that weak. How wet was he when Skurge knocked him out and was it a sucker shot? Skurge one-shot KOed Thor but it was from behind.

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I highly doubt Skurge was ever shown weaker than Jen.


I think Skurge was probably stronger than She-Hulk overall but I know when he fought the Thing, they looked to be in the same ballpark.

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Skurge has reasonably good showings against Hulk in Hulk 102 and Defenders.

I've not read the second but in the first one, didn't Hulk basically block Skurge's axe swing with the palm of his hand and then flatten him?

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Ares would get molested by Hulk in any incarnation. Even mindless Hulk who was straight up said to be matched by Thor basically manhandled Ares in Hulk/Hercules.

And he'd probably manhandle Skurge too.

Yes, that DeFalco showing's pretty good but DeFalco went to a lot of effort to show Eric Masterson and the others struggling with guys who were Thor's bread-and-butter opponents, guys like Loki, Ulik, Uroc and Skurge. He was making a point about how tough the original Thunder God was and how appalled his classic foes were at the Thor Corps' perceived insolence. Loki never physically dominated Thor like he did Eric Masterson. Ulik looked better against Masterson than he had in decades against Thor. Skurge himself never looked anywhere near as strong against the Odinson as he did against Eric and his compadres.

I agree with Shuruku that there's no rhyme or reason why Bloodaxe should've been physically superior to Skurge. Bloodaxe was the same size as Skurge, 7'2'' and 1100lbs, and when she first turned up, she was even wearing the Executioner's old togs. If you'd taken off her helmet, you'd have probably seen the same Road Warrior Hawk face. I've no problem with Skurge operating at such a physically high level but he was always portrayed as being a step behind Thor in brute strength and probably a step behind Ulik as well ... more on a par with Wrecker's better showings, low-end Class 100. And all of that doesn't take away the lacklustre showings Skurge has had over the years either.

Yes, the Bloodaxe is amazingly powerful but I've not convinced Skurge ever used it to its full potential.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 05:11:39 PM by Sick Nick »

Abhilegend

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2017, 09:49:25 PM »
No, it was Avengers 10 where Simon was first introduced. And Stan Lee wrote Skurge as punching bag mostly. His later showings had him more formidable.


They fought again in Wondy's ongoing and Simon dominated. I don't think Skurge's later showings have been much more impressive, the DeFalco one aside - Thor never really had problems with the Executioner.


Can't find the issue. Issue number?

Eh, I wouldn't say so.
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Not really. Herc was weakened by Hydra's venom and still overpowered Ares completely when he was pushed.


Skurge is stronger than Ares, as I've stated all the way along, but he's not really achieved much more, despite having an incredibly powerful axe.


Just like Ares.
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Yes, weakened Namor. Skurge oneshotted Namor on land in Defenders IIRC.


He'd been on land for a while but he wasn't all that weak. How wet was he when Skurge knocked him out and was it a sucker shot? Skurge one-shot KOed Thor but it was from behind.


It wasn't a suckerpunch. Skurge sent Hulk flying, koed Namor and was beaten by both Hulk and Namor punching him together.



I forgot it was an energy blast.


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I highly doubt Skurge was ever shown weaker than Jen.


I think Skurge was probably stronger than She-Hulk overall but I know when he fought the Thing, they looked to be in the same ballpark.


In FF annual? Yes, but it was a lower end portrayal in Fantastic Four in general.
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Skurge has reasonably good showings against Hulk in Hulk 102 and Defenders.

I've not read the second but in the first one, didn't Hulk basically block Skurge's axe swing with the palm of his hand and then flatten him?


Not quite.
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Ares would get molested by Hulk in any incarnation. Even mindless Hulk who was straight up said to be matched by Thor basically manhandled Ares in Hulk/Hercules.

And he'd probably manhandle Skurge too.


Maybe, maybe not.
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Yes, that DeFalco showing's pretty good but DeFalco went to a lot of effort to show Eric Masterson and the others struggling with guys who were Thor's bread-and-butter opponents, guys like Loki, Ulik, Uroc and Skurge. He was making a point about how tough the original Thunder God was and how appalled his classic foes were at the Thor Corps' perceived insolence. Loki never physically dominated Thor like he did Eric Masterson. Ulik looked better against Masterson than he had in decades against Thor. Skurge himself never looked anywhere near as strong against the Odinson as he did against Eric and his compadres.

I agree with Shuruku that there's no rhyme or reason why Bloodaxe should've been physically superior to Skurge. Bloodaxe was the same size as Skurge, 7'2'' and 1100lbs, and when she first turned up, she was even wearing the Executioner's old togs. If you'd taken off her helmet, you'd have probably seen the same Road Warrior Hawk face. I've no problem with Skurge operating at such a physically high level but he was always portrayed as being a step behind Thor in brute strength and probably a step behind Ulik as well ... more on a par with Wrecker's better showings, low-end Class 100. And all of that doesn't take away the lacklustre showings Skurge has had over the years either.

Yes, the Bloodaxe is amazingly powerful but I've not convinced Skurge ever used it to its full potential.

And then he went and had Masterson stalemate Thor for a whole issue and when a lightning backlash happened it stunned both of them equally.

It was their lack of experience which hindered Thor corps IMO.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 10:00:12 PM by Abhilegend »

Strange

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2017, 02:01:20 AM »
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Ares would get molested by Hulk in any incarnation. Even mindless Hulk who was straight up said to be matched by Thor basically manhandled Ares in Hulk/Hercules.

The same comic where Zeus was worried by Hulk? Yeah...

No, it was Avengers 10 where Simon was first introduced. And Stan Lee wrote Skurge as punching bag mostly. His later showings had him more formidable.


They fought again in Wondy's ongoing and Simon dominated. I don't think Skurge's later showings have been much more impressive, the DeFalco one aside - Thor never really had problems with the Executioner.


Can't find the issue. Issue number?

Eh, I wouldn't say so.
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Not really. Herc was weakened by Hydra's venom and still overpowered Ares completely when he was pushed.


Skurge is stronger than Ares, as I've stated all the way along, but he's not really achieved much more, despite having an incredibly powerful axe.


Just like Ares.
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Yes, weakened Namor. Skurge oneshotted Namor on land in Defenders IIRC.


He'd been on land for a while but he wasn't all that weak. How wet was he when Skurge knocked him out and was it a sucker shot? Skurge one-shot KOed Thor but it was from behind.


It wasn't a suckerpunch. Skurge sent Hulk flying, koed Namor and was beaten by both Hulk and Namor punching him together.



I forgot it was an energy blast. 

So... Ares getting manhandled by Valkyrie is an epic showing now, eh?

Also, since we are bringing up old showings, Ares looked fucking great against Namor underwater in one of his original appearances.

Pak was also asked way back when if Herc was weakened for his fight with Ares and Pak shot that down like whoa.

Sick Nick

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2017, 05:41:02 AM »
And then he went and had Masterson stalemate Thor for a whole issue and when a lightning backlash happened it stunned both of them equally.

It was their lack of experience which hindered Thor corps IMO.

It was absolutely lack of experience that hindered the Thor Corps, especially Dargo and Eric. That arc was all about their infighting and rashness.

DeFalco couldn't keep straight on where he put Eric. In the earlier issues, like the Gladiator and Ulik fights, Eric looked every bit as strong as the real deal but then Tom called that into question when he had Loki claim that Eric wielded only a fraction of the Thunder God's strength. Eric really struggled with Ulik and others but he handled Annihilus much more easily than Thor himself did.

Later, a big portion of Eric's strength was taken away, I think when he went to Mephisto's realm and battled Sif ... Shuruku would be able to confirm. That said, he was still able to go toe-to-toe handily with the 30 tons level Sif. Even later, when he fought Thor, he looked fairly even with him, although he said he assumed Thor was stronger than him.

So Eric's strength was all over the place as Thor after the very early days, which is why it's so hard to rank him as Thunderstrike. Shuruku used to estimate 'Strike as about as strong as an Asgardian with Thor's heroic build, so maybe 40-45 tons level but there are showings where he looks a lot higher.

Abhilegend

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Re: Battle of the Week: Marvel Ares vs Skurge
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2017, 08:33:34 AM »
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Ares would get molested by Hulk in any incarnation. Even mindless Hulk who was straight up said to be matched by Thor basically manhandled Ares in Hulk/Hercules.

The same comic where Zeus was worried by Hulk? Yeah...


And lost to a spear from a titan? Pak did an 180 at Zeus. It was a terrible showing for him.

Hercules had Hulk on his knees at the end of the fight and Hulk was said to be matched by Thor by narrative.

No, it was Avengers 10 where Simon was first introduced. And Stan Lee wrote Skurge as punching bag mostly. His later showings had him more formidable.


They fought again in Wondy's ongoing and Simon dominated. I don't think Skurge's later showings have been much more impressive, the DeFalco one aside - Thor never really had problems with the Executioner.


Can't find the issue. Issue number?

Eh, I wouldn't say so.
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Not really. Herc was weakened by Hydra's venom and still overpowered Ares completely when he was pushed.


Skurge is stronger than Ares, as I've stated all the way along, but he's not really achieved much more, despite having an incredibly powerful axe.


Just like Ares.
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Yes, weakened Namor. Skurge oneshotted Namor on land in Defenders IIRC.


He'd been on land for a while but he wasn't all that weak. How wet was he when Skurge knocked him out and was it a sucker shot? Skurge one-shot KOed Thor but it was from behind.


It wasn't a suckerpunch. Skurge sent Hulk flying, koed Namor and was beaten by both Hulk and Namor punching him together.



I forgot it was an energy blast. 

So... Ares getting manhandled by Valkyrie is an epic showing now, eh?
[/quote]

He is said to be taken aback by her strength and it was Enchantress in disguise.

And he was not manhandled by her.

Not Barbara Morris.
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Also, since we are bringing up old showings, Ares looked fucking great against Namor underwater in one of his original appearances.


Yes, Sub-mariner 54. Namor has destroyed him completely on other occasions though.
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Pak was also asked way back when if Herc was weakened for his fight with Ares and Pak shot that down like whoa.
Maybe. But it's hinted in the comic though.