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If Venom never existed.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2017, 11:16:19 PM »
His first appearances had him as a slobbering psychopath with his human side only being used to integrate into society unnoticed.

Eddie's humanity was absolutely central to the character from ASM #300 (his first full appearance) onwards; Venom's personality and motivations were virtually all Eddie's, with the alien providing the power. Eddie was also literally the face of the character much of the time, as he often appeared either unmasked, or fully in civilian attire, even in his interactions with Peter.

Around the time of Lethal Protector, they explored Eddie Brock's history a bit more, but the miniseries that followed were all about how cool and badass Venom was.  I mean, part of his whole shtick was his desire to eat brains.

That was all talk, apart from one Venom mini where he did it for real.

AP

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2017, 11:23:09 PM »
His first appearances had him as a slobbering psychopath with his human side only being used to integrate into society unnoticed.

Eddie's humanity was absolutely central to the character from ASM #300 (his first full appearance) onwards; Venom's personality and motivations were virtually all Eddie's, with the alien providing the power. Eddie was also literally the face of the character much of the time, as he often appeared either unmasked, or fully in civilian attire, even in his interactions with Peter.

As I said, he would hide himself in public by showing his normal face.  How is that central to his character or evidence of humanity?  As for motivation, his entire villainous turn was that he was a shitty journalist who got fired because Spider-Man did his job, so he was out to kill him.  That was it.  Later, we found out that he had an emotionally abusive father and other things that explained his drive, but for the first bulk of his appearances, he didn't have much more going for him than that.

Around the time of Lethal Protector, they explored Eddie Brock's history a bit more, but the miniseries that followed were all about how cool and badass Venom was.  I mean, part of his whole shtick was his desire to eat brains.

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That was all talk, apart from one Venom mini where he did it for real.

Yes.  And?

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2017, 12:22:22 PM »
Eddie's humanity was absolutely central to the character from ASM #300 (his first full appearance) onwards; Venom's personality and motivations were virtually all Eddie's, with the alien providing the power. Eddie was also literally the face of the character much of the time, as he often appeared either unmasked, or fully in civilian attire, even in his interactions with Peter.

As I said, he would hide himself in public by showing his normal face.  How is that central to his character or evidence of humanity?

That wasn't the only reason he revealed his human face. He repeatedly did it when he and Peter were alone, or when he was otherwise making no attempt to conceal his identity. Those scenes were about expressing his humanity, enabling the characters he was talking to (and the readers) to connect with him in a way they couldn't with something fundamentally inhuman.

As for motivation, his entire villainous turn was that he was a shitty journalist who got fired because Spider-Man did his job, so he was out to kill him.  That was it.  Later, we found out that he had an emotionally abusive father and other things that explained his drive, but for the first bulk of his appearances, he didn't have much more going for him than that.

You can knock Venom's motivations for coming after Peter, and I agree they weren't very very logical. But the point is those motivations were Eddie's, not the alien's. Remove the human component, and you'd have a very different character, one much harder to relate to.

That was all talk, apart from one Venom mini where he did it for real.

Yes.  And?

You said brain eating was his schtick, but he never actually did it outside of one mini.

AP

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2017, 07:33:39 PM »
You can knock Venom's motivations for coming after Peter, and I agree they weren't very very logical. But the point is those motivations were Eddie's, not the alien's

The motivation of the alien was basically that of a jilted lover, which is actually more of a human reaction than "he got me fired when he exposed how dumb I am".  I'm not knocking Eddie's motivation, btw.  I'm pointing out that he was batshit insane.  It's not a tragic backstory in which someone feels sorry for the villain.  It's not very human.  Very few people can relate to that because most people are psychopaths.

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You said brain eating was his schtick, but he never actually did it outside of one mini.

I said his desire for brain eating was his shtick.  Shtick is slang for a routine or a gimmick.  So you pointing out that he wasn't serious about it for the most part proves my point.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2017, 05:46:07 PM »
You can knock Venom's motivations for coming after Peter, and I agree they weren't very very logical. But the point is those motivations were Eddie's, not the alien's

The motivation of the alien was basically that of a jilted lover, which is actually more of a human reaction than "he got me fired when he exposed how dumb I am".  I'm not knocking Eddie's motivation, btw.  I'm pointing out that he was batshit insane.  It's not a tragic backstory in which someone feels sorry for the villain.  It's not very human.  Very few people can relate to that because most people are psychopaths.

So your point is that the alien's motivation was more relatable than Eddie's? In a way yes, in a way no. I think most of us could relate to feeling resentment over being rejected by a loved one, even if we haven't experienced it personally. But most of us wouldn't want to kill someone over it. That's just as psychotic as wanting to kill someone for ruining your career. And while Eddie had no moral right to feel aggrieved about Spidey ruining his career, it's still understandable that he felt that way, all the same. Emotions aren't rational, and it's very human to project blame onto others when the fault lies within oneself.

All that said, it wasn't really the alien who wanted Peter dead. In fact, the alien had previously risked it's own death to save Peter in WOSM #100. So while the alien's resentment was an influence in Venom's grudge against Peter, it was really Eddie's anger that was the driving force.

You said brain eating was his schtick, but he never actually did it outside of one mini.

I said his desire for brain eating was his shtick.  Shtick is slang for a routine or a gimmick.  So you pointing out that he wasn't serious about it for the most part proves my point.

Splitting hairs perhaps, but it wasn't really a gimmick in practice. More of a catchphrase. His actual schtick IMO was being a more vicious, musclebound, evil twin of Spidey's.

AP

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2017, 06:20:35 PM »
You can knock Venom's motivations for coming after Peter, and I agree they weren't very very logical. But the point is those motivations were Eddie's, not the alien's

The motivation of the alien was basically that of a jilted lover, which is actually more of a human reaction than "he got me fired when he exposed how dumb I am".  I'm not knocking Eddie's motivation, btw.  I'm pointing out that he was batshit insane.  It's not a tragic backstory in which someone feels sorry for the villain.  It's not very human.  Very few people can relate to that because most people are psychopaths.

So your point is that the alien's motivation was more relatable than Eddie's? In a way yes, in a way no. I think most of us could relate to feeling resentment over being rejected by a loved one, even if we haven't experienced it personally. But most of us wouldn't want to kill someone over it. That's just as psychotic as wanting to kill someone for ruining your career. And while Eddie had no moral right to feel aggrieved about Spidey ruining his career, it's still understandable that he felt that way, all the same. Emotions aren't rational, and it's very human to project blame onto others when the fault lies within oneself.

All that said, it wasn't really the alien who wanted Peter dead. In fact, the alien had previously risked it's own death to save Peter in WOSM #100. So while the alien's resentment was an influence in Venom's grudge against Peter, it was really Eddie's anger that was the driving force.

That just further proves my point.

You said brain eating was his schtick, but he never actually did it outside of one mini.

I said his desire for brain eating was his shtick.  Shtick is slang for a routine or a gimmick.  So you pointing out that he wasn't serious about it for the most part proves my point.

Splitting hairs perhaps, but it wasn't really a gimmick in practice. More of a catchphrase. His actual schtick IMO was being a more vicious, musclebound, evil twin of Spidey's.
[/quote]

Again, that proves my point.

Eddie was a product of 90’s exxxtreme.  It doesn’t make him a bad character.  The fact that Venom is still around is a testament to his staying power but to say that he was popular due to his humanity is bogus.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2017, 04:24:10 PM »
So your point is that the alien's motivation was more relatable than Eddie's? In a way yes, in a way no. I think most of us could relate to feeling resentment over being rejected by a loved one, even if we haven't experienced it personally. But most of us wouldn't want to kill someone over it. That's just as psychotic as wanting to kill someone for ruining your career. And while Eddie had no moral right to feel aggrieved about Spidey ruining his career, it's still understandable that he felt that way, all the same. Emotions aren't rational, and it's very human to project blame onto others when the fault lies within oneself.

All that said, it wasn't really the alien who wanted Peter dead. In fact, the alien had previously risked it's own death to save Peter in WOSM #100. So while the alien's resentment was an influence in Venom's grudge against Peter, it was really Eddie's anger that was the driving force.

That just further proves my point.

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure which point you have in mind.

(And just to correct myself on the point I made previously, the symbiote risked it's life to save Peter in WOSM #1, not #100. As you'll know, AP, but others reading this may not, this would've been the last interaction between the symbiote and Peter prior to it joining with Eddie.)

Splitting hairs perhaps, but it wasn't really a gimmick in practice. More of a catchphrase. His actual schtick IMO was being a more vicious, musclebound, evil twin of Spidey's.

Again, that proves my point.

Eddie was a product of 90’s exxxtreme.  It doesn’t make him a bad character.  The fact that Venom is still around is a testament to his staying power but to say that he was popular due to his humanity is bogus.

I didn't strictly say he was popular because of his humanity. I certainly wouldn't single that out that as his main or unique selling point. I'm just not sure he would've been as popular, or would've received the push he did at all, without the human component. With the exception of Morlun, Spidey doesn't have any major villains that aren't essentially human (at least in part if not in whole, in cases like that of the Lizard). And Morlun was never an arch villain, more of a Doomsday-like occasional event villain.

AP

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2017, 07:00:46 PM »
Could you elaborate? I'm not sure which point you have in mind.

My point in that Eddie has mostly been a psycho his entire existence.  An incident where a psychotic alien symbiote shows more sympathy for him further proves that point.

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I didn't strictly say he was popular because of his humanity. I certainly wouldn't single that out that as his main or unique selling point. I'm just not sure he would've been as popular, or would've received the push he did at all, without the human component. With the exception of Morlun, Spidey doesn't have any major villains that aren't essentially human (at least in part if not in whole, in cases like that of the Lizard). And Morlun was never an arch villain, more of a Doomsday-like occasional event villain.

You mean just being a human in general?  Flesh and blood?  I don't see that as all that important.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2017, 06:19:01 PM »
Could you elaborate? I'm not sure which point you have in mind.

My point in that Eddie has mostly been a psycho his entire existence.  An incident where a psychotic alien symbiote shows more sympathy for him further proves that point.

Shows more sympathy than him, you mean? Eh. The alien showed more sympathy for Peter because it was in love with him. That naturally made it more sympathetic to Peter than Eddie, but the alien wasn't as human as Eddie in general. Not even close. And Eddie wasn't that psychotic until he joined with the alien (the whole brain-eating thing came from it, not him). It had a bad influence on him, and vice versa.

I didn't strictly say he was popular because of his humanity. I certainly wouldn't single that out that as his main or unique selling point. I'm just not sure he would've been as popular, or would've received the push he did at all, without the human component. With the exception of Morlun, Spidey doesn't have any major villains that aren't essentially human (at least in part if not in whole, in cases like that of the Lizard). And Morlun was never an arch villain, more of a Doomsday-like occasional event villain.

You mean just being a human in general?  Flesh and blood?  I don't see that as all that important.

So in your mind, it's just a coincidence that Marvel has never pushed a non-human villain as a major, regular foe for Spidey? You don't see a pattern there? A sense that they prefer to keep Spidey more grounded in terms of what he fights than the likes of the FF or Superman?

AP

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2017, 06:31:57 PM »
I never considered Venom, Carnage, or other symbiotes as fully human, personally.

As for why Spider-Man has few non-human villains in his rogues gallery, the answer is obvious.  He is a street level hero.  He doesn’t go into space very often, nor does he go after super natural threats very much.  You might as well ask why the Fantastic Four don’t go around fighting mob bosses.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2017, 09:29:46 PM »
I never considered Venom, Carnage, or other symbiotes as fully human, personally.

They're not fully human, obviously. They're a human/alien pairing, with the human component providing most of the personality.

As for why Spider-Man has few non-human villains in his rogues gallery, the answer is obvious.  He is a street level hero.  He doesn’t go into space very often, nor does he go after super natural threats very much.  You might as well ask why the Fantastic Four don’t go around fighting mob bosses.

That only addresses the question from an in-universe perspective. I'm asking you to look at this from the POV of the writers. Do you think writers are just as inclined to push fully non-human characters as arch foes for Spidey, as they are human or part-human ones?

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2017, 12:48:23 AM »
Spidey’s rogues usually have an animal theme to them, and as time goes on, more animalistic tendencies


Jabroniville

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2017, 07:27:06 AM »
If Venom hadn't been around, the writers would have found some other way to make "Bad-Ass Evil Spider-Man" a thing. It was the '90s. It just wouldn't have happened as... organically?