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If Venom never existed.

AP

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2017, 05:49:18 PM »
When it comes to fan appeal, there was a time in the 80's and even some parts of the 90's in which Ock was seen as kind of cheesy to both fans and writers.  Larsen took Ock out of his green spandex, but you have guys like Peter David who put him right back in them.  These aren't my views, mind you, as I've always liked him, but it took a while for people to shake this idea of a goofy Doc Ock.  Like I said, they even tried to kill him off.  I don't see those same writers building Ock up just because they don't have an arch foe.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2017, 10:02:52 PM »
^^^Doppleganger.

Considering Venom started from scratch on the points you cited, doing the same for Doppy wouldnt have been impossible.
I'm not gonna write fan fic here, but giving him a higher IQ (which like i said is easily done/has been done in comics numerous times) would give him the credible motivation to hate on Spidey for a variety of reasons.

As for fan appeal, if the readers got behind a murderous fang mouthed version of Spidey, they'd likely get behind......a murderous fang mouthed version of Spidey.

The Doppelganger we know doesn't tick the credibility or fan appeal boxes. What you're really saying is that he could tick all the boxes if he was written very differently than he actually was. And we're talking a deepy fundamental change here, i.e. inventing a whole new personality for him from scratch.

I'll grant you this: if Marvel were hell bent on having a Venom-like arch villain, Doppelganger is the closest non-symbiote-related substitute, superficially at least. But I'm not sure he would've worked as Spidey's arch foe even with intelligence and speech, because he still would've been a newly-spawned alien monster with no back story to flesh out his character, and no place in human society. Doomsday is similar in that respect, but I don't think Doomsday was conceived as an ongoing arch villain, nor would he have worked as one IMO.





When it comes to fan appeal, there was a time in the 80's and even some parts of the 90's in which Ock was seen as kind of cheesy to both fans and writers.  Larsen took Ock out of his green spandex, but you have guys like Peter David who put him right back in them.

That was one cameo in a HULK issue. In the Spidey books, the '90s depiction of Ock consistently wore business suits, not just under Michelinie/Larsen, but Conway/Buscema and DeFalco/Bagley/Frenz as well. And I think the Michelinie/Larsen depiction of Ock was an effective example of how he could work in the '90s, which went down well with the fans.

These aren't my views, mind you, as I've always liked him, but it took a while for people to shake this idea of a goofy Doc Ock.  Like I said, they even tried to kill him off.  I don't see those same writers building Ock up just because they don't have an arch foe.

I'm not sure there was a genuine intention to write Ock out of the books permanently; he was brought back a couple of years later by the same writer who killed him off. Also, the lay of the land would've been a very different had Venom not existed, which could lead to different creative decisions. We're all making stabs in the dark here really; I don't think there's any way to be remotely sure how Spidey continuity would have unfolded in Venom's absence.

Riv1

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2017, 01:17:13 AM »
Quote
The Doppelganger we know doesn't tick the credibility or fan appeal boxes. What you're really saying is that he could tick all the boxes if he was written very differently than he actually was. And we're talking a deepy fundamental change here, i.e. inventing a whole new personality for him from scratch.
Exactly.
I'm not re-inventing the wheel with that concept. Happens all the time in comics.

And this wouldnt be the Doppy we know.
It'd be the Doppy that was pretty much a blank slate back then, but had the nineties appeal potential (darker edgier version of the hero) i mentioned, and could have been used creatively if anyone had taken the time to work on him.
With Venom around there was no need to.
But in this scenario Venom never existed.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 01:21:39 AM by Riv1 »
Thats not a bat. This...is a bat.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2017, 07:50:20 AM »
You don't think Doppel being a hideous, six-armed alien monster (i.e., someone who couldn't blend in with normal people, like Eddie Brock could), with no human identity and no life history prior to INFINITY WAR, are further problems for him as a prospective arch foe for Spidey?

Riv1

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2017, 08:08:55 AM »
Not really.
Personally if i were a hideous, six-armed alien monster with no human identity and no life history and suddenly developed self awareness, i'd be mad as fuck at the person i'd been modeled after.

I understand your point(s), but as i said its nothing that couldnt be addressed by a decent writer.

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AP

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2017, 11:28:57 AM »
Let’s face it, Venom was popular because he was badass, not for the human side.

Uhtceare

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2017, 01:29:03 PM »
And badass in the most oozing-testosterone fashion, which is what the nineties were about. Ock just doesn't fit that. That's not a knock against him. The nineties were shit. The things that played well in that era were shit.

Riv1

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2017, 03:45:34 PM »
^^^yes...
Let’s face it, Venom was popular because he was badass, not for the human side.
...and yes.
A lot of the characters i listed earlier that Venom fell in with were extremely meh.   
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MTL76

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2017, 06:27:22 PM »
For some reason this thread is making me nostalgic for the original Hobgoblin. He was a GREAT nemesis for Spider-Man. It's too bad his character went off the rails.


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AP

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2017, 10:24:21 PM »
For some reason this thread is making me nostalgic for the original Hobgoblin. He was a GREAT nemesis for Spider-Man. It's too bad his character went off the rails.

I thought I was the only one who loved Macendale.

MTL76

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2017, 12:01:37 AM »
I was referring to the original Hobgoblin... though TBH I preferred Hobgoblin when the readers weren't aware ofhis identity, and once he was revealed to be the relatively boring Kingsley, it was a letdown for me.

But those early issues of the Hobgoblin, when we didn't know who he was, were gold.


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AP

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2017, 01:51:44 AM »
Ah, you did say original.  I see that now.  We were mostly talking about Macendale in this thread since he had that 90's edginess at the time, so I missed it the first time.

The original Hobby storyline was solid gold, though.  It's a classic.

MTL76

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2017, 02:10:26 AM »
Yeah, I liked how Hobgoblin was originally presented because unlike Spidey's other villains, he really didn't have any crippling neuroses or personality defects (aside from being an amoral criminal.)



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The Shuruku Demon

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2017, 10:41:09 PM »
Not really.
Personally if i were a hideous, six-armed alien monster with no human identity and no life history and suddenly developed self awareness, i'd be mad as fuck at the person i'd been modeled after.

Yeah, but you're speaking as someone who knows what it's like to be human. As an actual alien, Doppel probably wouldn't want to look human, any more than your average Klingon does. And sure, he'd still hate Spidey, but he'd be an awkward character to write as an ongoing arch foe, since he couldn't blend in among normal folk, and would lack emotional depth as a being with no life history, or reason for existing aside from being a Spidey foe.

I understand your point(s), but as i said its nothing that couldnt be addressed by a decent writer.

Maybe. But I have trouble imagining Spidey writers wanting to use an alien with no human aspect as Spider-Man's main foe. Doesn't really fit that whole friendly neighbourhood vibe.





Let’s face it, Venom was popular because he was badass, not for the human side.

I'm not sure about that. Venom's human side is fundamental to how he was written. It provided a depth to the character, beyond simply being a super villain. It allowed him to interact with normal folk without necessarily being recognised as a super villain. And it allowed Eddie and Peter to relate as people.

Without that human side, he clearly would've been a very different character, and not necessarily one who would've been received as well as he was, or pushed in the way that he was to begin with.

AP

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2017, 10:51:50 PM »
Let’s face it, Venom was popular because he was badass, not for the human side.

I'm not sure about that. Venom's human side is fundamental to how he was written. It provided a depth to the character, beyond simply being a super villain. It allowed him to interact with normal folk without necessarily being recognised as a super villain. And it allowed Eddie and Peter to relate as people.

Without that human side, he clearly would've been a very different character, and not necessarily one who would've been received as well as he was, or pushed in the way that he was to begin with.

His first appearances had him as a slobbering psychopath with his human side only being used to integrate into society unnoticed.  Around the time of Lethal Protector, they explored Eddie Brock's history a bit more, but the miniseries that followed were all about how cool and badass Venom was.  I mean, part of his whole shtick was his desire to eat brains.