Herochat

If Venom never existed.

The Shuruku Demon

  • *****
  • 1963
  • +14/-4
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2017, 07:58:12 PM »
Ock has always been a major villain, though even if he wasn’t THE archvillain.

True, but you didn't stipulate that the alternative villain had to be someone who wasn't a big time foe already. You just asked who'd be the major villain of that period if Venom hadn't existed, and I think Ock is the mostly likely candidate to have assumed the top spot.

AP

  • ********
  • 14897
  • +50/-48
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2017, 08:14:52 PM »
I'm not making any stipulations.  I'm just not seeing Ock rising in the ranks.  After Green Goblin died, they brought in Kingpin, then Jackal, then the Hobgoblin to be Spidey's arch foe.  They even brought up two other Green Goblins.  Doc Ock was always there as the runner up.  If he didn't become the #1 bad guy from the 60's on up through the late 80's, then I don't think it would've happened in the 90's regardless if Venom was around or not.

The Shuruku Demon

  • *****
  • 1963
  • +14/-4
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2017, 09:06:36 PM »
He's risen in the ranks more recently; you can make a strong case for him being the numero uno Spidey foe now, or on level pegging with Norman at least, so the notion that he hit a glass ceiling he could never break through decades ago doesn't ring true for me. And sure, other villains had their moments in the Sun, but Ock was always the bedrock villain you could rely on when those other upstarts had run out of steam.

You could say the same of Lex Luthor and Superman, or Joker and Batman. Villains like Doomsday and Bane may have temporarily eclipsed them in prominence, but they had more staying power, and rank higher overall as a result.

Red Exodus

  • ******
  • 2390
  • +7/-19
  • The one you've been smashing for!
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2017, 09:11:09 PM »
I could Macendale Hobgoblin getting the push. he was a very constant 90's enemy of Peter's.

Gree

  • ********
  • 7502
  • +37/-6
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2017, 10:17:54 PM »
Scorpion has name and costume potential

Uhtceare

  • ****
  • 772
  • +8/-3
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2017, 10:24:05 PM »
He's risen in the ranks more recently; you can make a strong case for him being the numero uno Spidey foe now, or on level pegging with Norman at least, so the notion that he hit a glass ceiling he could never break through decades ago doesn't ring true for me. And sure, other villains had their moments in the Sun, but Ock was always the bedrock villain you could rely on when those other upstarts had run out of steam.

You could say the same of Lex Luthor and Superman, or Joker and Batman. Villains like Doomsday and Bane may have temporarily eclipsed them in prominence, but they had more staying power, and rank higher overall as a result.

One wonders why he never has quite made the top spot. I suspect because arch-enemies are usually either evil versions of the hero, or complete opposites, and Otto isn't really either.

Parker's opposite is someone like Norman Osborn; a rich asshole to Parker's working class schlub. Parker's evil versions are any of the working joes like Venom.

The Shuruku Demon

  • *****
  • 1963
  • +14/-4
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2017, 11:36:41 PM »
One wonders why he never has quite made the top spot. I suspect because arch-enemies are usually either evil versions of the hero, or complete opposites, and Otto isn't really either.

As I said, I think Ock has a strong claim to the top spot right now. He's been very busy in the last decade, launching more ambitious schemes than ever before. Norman's done likewise, heading H.A.M.M.E.R. and whatnot, but that branching out has made him less Spidey-focused than he used to be; he doesn't even know Spidey's civilian ID anymore, whereas Ock does.

And I think knowledge of Spidey's ID is the main thing that gave Osborn the edge over Ock in the past. Brock had the same edge, along with a greater physical threat, and enormous popularity, which shouldn't be overlooked. The likes of Puma, Scorpion and Morbius could never have been as big as Venom was back then, because they weren't anywhere near as over with the fans. Ock wasn't as over either, but he was still more popular than those three.

Parker's opposite is someone like Norman Osborn; a rich asshole to Parker's working class schlub. Parker's evil versions are any of the working joes like Venom.

Ock sort of is an evil version of Peter now. He currently has Peter's powers; his new body is a clone with elements of Peter's DNA mixed with his own. He and Peter are both science nerds, one who uses his talents for criminal purposes, the other to combat crime and save lives. And they've effectively been the same person in a sense, sharing the same body and life for a while.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 11:38:12 PM by The Shuruku Demon »

Riv1

  • ************
  • 21131
  • +20/-867
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2017, 12:10:56 AM »
^^^But he wouldnt have been a nineties villain.
We have to keep in mind the era, and what was being pushed, ppl.

Marvel actually tried to nineties up the concept with Lady Octopus in 1995. Didn't work.
Thats not a bat. This...is a bat.

AP

  • ********
  • 14897
  • +50/-48
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2017, 02:16:34 AM »
They also tried to kill Doc Ock off for good in the 90's.  Erik Larsen tried to make him a massive threat, but most writers and editors at Marvel just weren't having it then.

Riv1

  • ************
  • 21131
  • +20/-867
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2017, 05:52:06 AM »
They also tried to kill Doc Ock off for good in the 90's.  Erik Larsen tried to make him a massive threat, but most writers and editors at Marvel just weren't having it then.
Was it Larsen that dud the adamantium arms?

Thats not a bat. This...is a bat.

AP

  • ********
  • 14897
  • +50/-48
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2017, 06:45:51 AM »
Yup

Uhtceare

  • ****
  • 772
  • +8/-3
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2017, 09:41:36 AM »
^^^But he wouldnt have been a nineties villain.
We have to keep in mind the era, and what was being pushed, ppl.



Exactly.

Riv1

  • ************
  • 21131
  • +20/-867
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2017, 05:01:55 PM »
^^^But he wouldnt have been a nineties villain.
We have to keep in mind the era, and what was being pushed, ppl.



Exactly.
Thanks.
Thats not a bat. This...is a bat.

The Shuruku Demon

  • *****
  • 1963
  • +14/-4
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2017, 05:12:12 PM »
I'm not forgetting the era. I just don't think the '90s-ness (for want of a better term) of a villain is the only consideration, or even the most important one, necessarily. Other important factors are...

1) Credibility: a credible arch foe for Spidey needs to present a serious threat to him, and in most cases, they need to be an intellectual rival.

2) Motivation: they need to be someone who's driven enough to be Spidey's arch villain, either due to the ambitiousness of their criminal exploits, or due to a sufficiently strong personal grudge.

3) Fan appeal: they have to be someone the fans care about enough to want to read stories with them as the arch villain.

Who among Ock's competition ticks all these boxes, while also being more '90s than he is?

Riv1

  • ************
  • 21131
  • +20/-867
    • View Profile
Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2017, 05:48:17 PM »
^^^Doppleganger.

Considering Venom started from scratch on the points you cited, doing the same for Doppy wouldnt have been impossible.
I'm not gonna write fan fic here, but giving him a higher IQ (which like i said is easily done/has been done in comics numerous times) would give him the credible motivation to hate on Spidey for a variety of reasons.

As for fan appeal, if the readers got behind a murderous fang mouthed version of Spidey, they'd likely get behind......a murderous fang mouthed version of Spidey.
Thats not a bat. This...is a bat.