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If Venom never existed.

AP

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If Venom never existed.
« on: October 23, 2017, 11:34:32 PM »
I did this little experiment with Batman and Joker a long time ago and I wanna explore it with Spider-Man.

Venom's creation has its genesis back during the first Secret Wars miniseries when Jim Shooter mandated that Spider-Man should get a black costume.  Let's look at a hypothetical situation in which Shooter didn't make that decision, so the black costume never existed, thus Venom was never created down the line.  Who would've been the major Spidey villain in the 90's if there was no Venom (assuming some non-existent bad guy wasn't thought up instead)?

Uhtceare

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2017, 12:29:20 AM »
Hmm, that era loved wrestling, guns, and feral imagery. I suppose they might have upgraded some older villains to fit in with what was then modern themes. Kraven might have come back demonic and feral with a maw of giant werewolf fangs and demonic machine gun from his time in hell after killing himself. Or Sandman might have started using sand to form a maw of fangs and made himself steroidally muscular. Regardless, I think they would have found some way to combine the big three images of the day, and pitted them against Spidey, because that's just what they did in that era.

Riv1

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2017, 12:29:37 AM »
If 90s Marvel creative were consciously or subconsciously looking to popularize a darker, edgier Spidey knock off, they could have gone with Doppleganger:







He came out of their INFINITY WAR event, and stuck around, much like the black costume and SECRET WARS.
Tweaked a bit, he could have fit that murderous brain eating vibe they were going for.
After his inevitable face turn, he would have made a particularly gruesome 'Lethal Protector'.
Bagley even drew him quite a bit, so the hot artist angle would have been covered. 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 12:32:31 AM by Riv1 »
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AP

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2017, 01:11:34 AM »
Yeah, I was thinking about the Doppleganger too.  He is already sort of a poor man's Venom.

Hmm, that era loved wrestling, guns, and feral imagery. I suppose they might have upgraded some older villains to fit in with what was then modern themes. Kraven might have come back demonic and feral with a maw of giant werewolf fangs and demonic machine gun from his time in hell after killing himself. Or Sandman might have started using sand to form a maw of fangs and made himself steroidally muscular. Regardless, I think they would have found some way to combine the big three images of the day, and pitted them against Spidey, because that's just what they did in that era.

During this time, Sandman was a good guy.

Although Hobgoblin during the 90's fits that bill, perfectly.  For a time, Jason Macendale was fused with a demon and had the fangs and everything.  Marvel seemed to be trying to make him the latest thing for a while there.  He showed up during both Todd McFarlane and Erik Larsen's stints and also showed up in Darkhawk (who Marvel was trying to make popular) and Ghost Rider (who was super popular at the time).

Morbius might've been a contender as well.  He was brought back in the 90's and was a part of the Midnight sons stuff.  He was a bit of an anti-hero during this era, but Marvel probably would've just made him an out-and-out bad guy.

I'm also wondering about Harry Osborn, who relapsed into the Green Goblin during this time.  He knew Peter's secret identity and played head games, much like Venom during his early years.

Riv1

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2017, 06:23:58 AM »
Without a Venom for comparison Doppy would have been the middle class Doppy.  :P

There have been some interesting suggestions, though i obviously prefer my choice.
Doppy captures the 90s era penchant for seeing darker versions of heroes (to name a few there were: Jean Paul Valley Batman, cyborg Superman/Eradicator, Artemis WW, and dont forget Vengeance-a darker edgier version of the already dark and edgy Ghost Rider ::) )
The other choices really dont have that in their favor, being their own characters. Somehow giving Sandman fangs just isnt the same.

Just stating my case for the Dopper.
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Red Exodus

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2017, 12:50:12 PM »
Doppel was fucking stupid. The fact he lasted longer than the event
he was created for did made little sense. He was just an 8-armed
Spider-Man that had claws and teeth. How creative.  ::)

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 01:58:26 PM »
I can see Scorpion getting a 90s edgy update. They basically did that when they made him Venom.

MTL76

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 02:43:45 PM »
I can see Scorpion getting a 90s edgy update. They basically did that when they made him Venom.

Yeah, Scorpion seems to have gotten the shaft over the years. He started out stronger than Spider-Man, had a cool name and look... He gradually got turned into a joke.


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Whiskeyclone

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 11:50:02 PM »
I could see Kraven working, yeah, played up for maximum edginess. Ditto Morbius. Maybe Puma?

AP

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2017, 12:03:45 AM »
Puma might be a really good choice.  He debuted in the exact same year as the symbiote costume and only a few years before Venom came around.

He was a really powerful villain for Spidey and had all the cool shit the 90's loved (claws, animal instincts, edginess) and has the anti-villain  stuff going for him.

Riv1

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2017, 12:14:11 AM »
Doppel was fucking stupid. The fact he lasted longer than the event
he was created for did made little sense. He was just an 8-armed
Spider-Man that had claws and teeth. How creative.  ::)
And thats exactly how i felt/feel about Venom, word for word, minus the 8 arms. :P

So...spot on casting.
Thats not a bat. This...is a bat.

The Shuruku Demon

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2017, 03:12:37 PM »
Boring answer, but I think Doc Ock is the most likely of Spidey's villains at the time to have stepped up as his arch foe in Venom's absence.

I doubt Puma would have filled in, since he wasn't created to be an out and out villain in the true sense.

The original Kraven was explicitly dead, and I doubt they would've resurrected him that early -- the Last Hunt storyline was still too fresh, occurring just before Venom debuted.

I think Morbius and Scorpion had missed the boat, in the sense that they'd been around too long without ever showing the desire/ability to become an arch villain. To suddenly make either one of them an arch foe circa 1990 would be like asking a woman out years after you've already been friendzoned.

And an arch villain needs dialogue scenes, which rules Doppelganger out, since he couldn't speak.

Ock aside, the only two existing, living villains that had a serious shot as an arch foe were Macendale Hobby and Harry Osborn, but I don't think either one fills that role as naturally as Octavius.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 03:16:09 PM by The Shuruku Demon »

Uhtceare

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 04:47:31 PM »
Otto would have needed a savagery upgrade to work as an arch-villain in that era. Maybe give his tentacles fangs and machine guns, and steroid up the man himself.

Riv1

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2017, 05:32:01 PM »
Quote
Puma would have filled in, since he wasn't created to be an out and out villain in the true sense.
I thought of and opted away from Puma for the same reason.

Quote
an arch villain needs dialogue scenes, which rules Doppelganger out, since he couldn't speak.
Totally agree, which is why i said he'd need tweaking.
Raising his IQ (to a cunning animalistic level, and giving him an appetite for brains) wouldn't have been a problem.
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AP

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Re: If Venom never existed.
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2017, 07:08:32 PM »
Boring answer, but I think Doc Ock is the most likely of Spidey's villains at the time to have stepped up as his arch foe in Venom's absence.

I doubt Puma would have filled in, since he wasn't created to be an out and out villain in the true sense.

The original Kraven was explicitly dead, and I doubt they would've resurrected him that early -- the Last Hunt storyline was still too fresh, occurring just before Venom debuted.

I think Morbius and Scorpion had missed the boat, in the sense that they'd been around too long without ever showing the desire/ability to become an arch villain. To suddenly make either one of them an arch foe circa 1990 would be like asking a woman out years after you've already been friendzoned.

And an arch villain needs dialogue scenes, which rules Doppelganger out, since he couldn't speak.

Ock aside, the only two existing, living villains that had a serious shot as an arch foe were Macendale Hobby and Harry Osborn, but I don't think either one fills that role as naturally as Octavius.

Ock has always been a major villain, though even if he wasn’t THE archvillain.