Herochat

ANTIFA: smash or trash?

scourge

  • ********
  • 9237
  • +26/-9
  • Just be pleasant
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2017, 09:46:50 AM »

Well yeah, this is essentially my argument.  Obviously Antifa hasn't done anything as bad as legit Nazis.  That goes with out saying.  And I'm not concerned about the skinhead who got his teeth punched out after he called a black guy a nigger.  My concern is escalation and them going after the wrong people, both of which, has happened.

The thing we mostly disagree on is that you seem to think most legit racist people will eventually be too afraid to go out and march.  I think the exact opposite will happen.  People will start dying soon.

I think the efforts to oppose them at all costs has paid off. Look at Boston. Now granted, most of that has not been Antifa, but those w/ less violent means. But I think many (not all but many) of these racists are for the most part cowards. Ready to denounce and go after minorities when it's safe for them and there is no risk. As soon as they have to face consequences they show their true colors and run. Of course, I also see your point and worry that some will be motivated and that it will escalate. People are diverse in their behavior etc. So not sure. For now Antifa hasn't gone too far. That's all been on the other side. The ones they oppose do the killing. But they must not sink to the level of those they oppose. Not to make too light of all of this, but it's almost like they're all going at it w/ Daredevil methods, but must be careful not to go Punisher. Not to cross that line.

scourge

  • ********
  • 9237
  • +26/-9
  • Just be pleasant
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2017, 09:47:18 AM »
Scourge, what happens when Antifa attack people who aren't white nationalists or Fascists? What happens when they attack police officers, or journalists, or Trump supporters?  Is that considered a necessary evil?

There's too much presumption in these questions, but Antifa is no doubt playing a dangerous game. Hopefully, as I said, they won't go down these paths. I fully denounced (on here) those kids who kid-napped that Trump supporter and tortured him. Those people are monstrous in my mind. Very distinct from the person who popped Richard Spencer in the face though. So a universal mindset devoid of subtle analysis isn't my approach. You're right, most of those things would be very bad, and I can think of much worse things Antifa can do. Hence what I said about the slippery slope.

Keep in mind that the kid in that video was never confirmed to be a Trump supporter.  They just grabbed a mentally handicapped kid they assumed was a Trump supporter.

Wether he was a Trump supporter or not, it's disgusting.

NeoGreenLantern

  • ********
  • 14329
  • +59/-17
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2017, 10:08:18 AM »
One point that seems pretty universal is the idea that "facists/nazis" don't listen to anything else. Hence the violence. Hence this debate in the first place. Personally I'm of two minds:

1) there's the violence doesn't solve anything/only serves to escalate the tension -- let's call that the AP argument
2) when I see a video of a guy going around saying kill em all, etc (em meaning non-whites) one day, and then the next crying into the camera how scared he is for his safety, I'm like "fuck yes." -- let's call that the Neo argument

The thing is, I don't think I want to/need to reconcile these two seemingly opposing internal feelings. Instead I think it makes me want some kind of balance. I think Antifa should continue to make those people scared who build up organizations that devote their lives to burning crosses and rounding up/lynching those that don't look/think like them.

Antifa has never killed anyone. The organizations they often oppose, KKK, Neo-nazis definitely have. MANY people. Until they kill someone/take the violence too far, I think they're maybe okay? BUT, I fear the slippery slope, I just don't know how much I fear it. Now, they've managed to be able not to slide down it. But that potential that they might gives my a lot of concern. Just don't take it too far, Antifa. Don't incite the opposition anymore than you already have. That's where the real danger lies. That's the part that personally scares me.

It's this balance. I don't want the KKK/neo-nazis/white supremacists thinking they can get away with their shit. And it's not like they wouldn't have a scapegoat if the Antifa didn't exist. But I don't want the Antifa to inadvertently rally more people to those causes. Be careful not to go after the wrong people. I don't like the big banks anymore than the next guy, I took my money out of BoA, but smashing their windows just means some underpaid poor SoB will have to clean it up. You're not fight club.

Well yeah, this is essentially my argument.  Obviously Antifa hasn't done anything as bad as legit Nazis.  That goes with out saying.  And I'm not concerned about the skinhead who got his teeth punched out after he called a black guy a nigger.  My concern is escalation and them going after the wrong people, both of which, has happened.

The thing we mostly disagree on is that you seem to think most legit racist people will eventually be too afraid to go out and march.  I think the exact opposite will happen.  People will start dying soon.

I agree with you but the problem as I see it is that its easier to get accidentally get lumped in with the worst of Antifa than it is to get lumped in with White Supremacist. For example if I hear about a anti-Trump rally even if I'm just holding my sign doing the standard chants then you don't really know if your going to get lumped in with violent left wing assholes until some shit goes down. IMHO as long as you're staying out of the violence then your not condoning it.

On the other end if you show up to protest the removal of a confederate monument and there a dudes in swastikas and talking about white power and taking back the country, even if you don't necessarily agree with them, if you stay your kinda taking a stance on supporting them because at that point the rally isn't just about the statue.

NeoGreenLantern

  • ********
  • 14329
  • +59/-17
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2017, 10:09:19 AM »
To put it another way if I was to go protest Trump and when I got their The New Black Panther party was running the show talking about killing whitey I would GTFO.

AP

  • ********
  • 14940
  • +51/-48
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2017, 10:22:19 AM »
Scourge, what happens when Antifa attack people who aren't white nationalists or Fascists? What happens when they attack police officers, or journalists, or Trump supporters?  Is that considered a necessary evil?

There's too much presumption in these questions, but Antifa is no doubt playing a dangerous game. Hopefully, as I said, they won't go down these paths. I fully denounced (on here) those kids who kid-napped that Trump supporter and tortured him. Those people are monstrous in my mind. Very distinct from the person who popped Richard Spencer in the face though. So a universal mindset devoid of subtle analysis isn't my approach. You're right, most of those things would be very bad, and I can think of much worse things Antifa can do. Hence what I said about the slippery slope.

Keep in mind that the kid in that video was never confirmed to be a Trump supporter.  They just grabbed a mentally handicapped kid they assumed was a Trump supporter.

Wether he was a Trump supporter or not, it's disgusting.

It speaks of the mindset of some of these people.  They react out of raw emotion instead of being rational.

scourge

  • ********
  • 9237
  • +26/-9
  • Just be pleasant
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2017, 10:26:13 AM »
Scourge, what happens when Antifa attack people who aren't white nationalists or Fascists? What happens when they attack police officers, or journalists, or Trump supporters?  Is that considered a necessary evil?

There's too much presumption in these questions, but Antifa is no doubt playing a dangerous game. Hopefully, as I said, they won't go down these paths. I fully denounced (on here) those kids who kid-napped that Trump supporter and tortured him. Those people are monstrous in my mind. Very distinct from the person who popped Richard Spencer in the face though. So a universal mindset devoid of subtle analysis isn't my approach. You're right, most of those things would be very bad, and I can think of much worse things Antifa can do. Hence what I said about the slippery slope.

Keep in mind that the kid in that video was never confirmed to be a Trump supporter.  They just grabbed a mentally handicapped kid they assumed was a Trump supporter.

Wether he was a Trump supporter or not, it's disgusting.

It speaks of the mindset of some of these people.  They react out of raw emotion instead of being rational.

That wasn't Antifa though. And I don't think it speaks to the mind of any particular group of people. I think you can take any group of people and make that statement. Antifa, the police, politicians, white supremacists, etc.

scourge

  • ********
  • 9237
  • +26/-9
  • Just be pleasant
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2017, 10:26:46 AM »
To put it another way if I was to go protest Trump and when I got their The New Black Panther party was running the show talking about killing whitey I would GTFO.

QFT

AP

  • ********
  • 14940
  • +51/-48
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2017, 10:28:27 AM »
Scourge, what happens when Antifa attack people who aren't white nationalists or Fascists? What happens when they attack police officers, or journalists, or Trump supporters?  Is that considered a necessary evil?

There's too much presumption in these questions, but Antifa is no doubt playing a dangerous game. Hopefully, as I said, they won't go down these paths. I fully denounced (on here) those kids who kid-napped that Trump supporter and tortured him. Those people are monstrous in my mind. Very distinct from the person who popped Richard Spencer in the face though. So a universal mindset devoid of subtle analysis isn't my approach. You're right, most of those things would be very bad, and I can think of much worse things Antifa can do. Hence what I said about the slippery slope.

Keep in mind that the kid in that video was never confirmed to be a Trump supporter.  They just grabbed a mentally handicapped kid they assumed was a Trump supporter.

Wether he was a Trump supporter or not, it's disgusting.

It speaks of the mindset of some of these people.  They react out of raw emotion instead of being rational.

That wasn't Antifa though. And I don't think it speaks to the mind of any particular group of people. I think you can take any group of people and make that statement. Antifa, the police, politicians, white supremacists, etc.

I know it wasn't Antifa, but with all this might makes right nonsense, this sort of shit is bound to happen.  Antifa is not the cause but a symptom of this way of thinking.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 10:54:56 AM by Toilet Bunny »

therock

  • ********
  • 7903
  • +23/-63
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2017, 01:21:43 PM »
Scourge, what happens when Antifa attack people who aren't white nationalists or Fascists? What happens when they attack police officers, or journalists, or Trump supporters?  Is that considered a necessary evil?

There's too much presumption in these questions, but Antifa is no doubt playing a dangerous game. Hopefully, as I said, they won't go down these paths. I fully denounced (on here) those kids who kid-napped that Trump supporter and tortured him. Those people are monstrous in my mind. Very distinct from the person who popped Richard Spencer in the face though. So a universal mindset devoid of subtle analysis isn't my approach. You're right, most of those things would be very bad, and I can think of much worse things Antifa can do. Hence what I said about the slippery slope.

Keep in mind that the kid in that video was never confirmed to be a Trump supporter.  They just grabbed a mentally handicapped kid they assumed was a Trump supporter.

Wether he was a Trump supporter or not, it's disgusting.

It speaks of the mindset of some of these people.  They react out of raw emotion instead of being rational.

That wasn't Antifa though. And I don't think it speaks to the mind of any particular group of people. I think you can take any group of people and make that statement. Antifa, the police, politicians, white supremacists, etc.

I know it wasn't Antifa, but with all this might makes right nonsense, this sort of shit is bound to happen.  Antifa is not the cause but a symptom of this way of thinking.


thing is most black group and left groups called that out. Anifita , BLM, cant control every dumb shit a black or left wing group person might do in America. They can only contorl themselves and say they dont support it. And people are more willing to lump them all together

Know right wing guys dont like to get lump it with hate groups. But here how to avoid it. I am against Israel taking over settlements.  If I was at a rally I would speak against it. But if someone in that rally was like "DEATH TO ALL jews"  I be smart enough to back away from that. And the death of all jews guys always pop up in that coversation So you back away from them and speak out against immedtedly.


Like Tea partiers, White surpemisct, and west baptist, Bundys, briberty, Fox news. are assholes. But I seperate them as different flavors of assholes at least. There not all the same. So I expect the same fairness when people talk about the left

Here the differnce I see in how Right wing asshole and left wing assholes are treated. Katy Griffin does her thing. People say WTF Kathy...you dumb stupid bitch and she fired.  Ted nugent does his thing..get invited to the white house dinner to watch the man he threaten to kill, rnc, later the white house

Right wings groups talking about free speech right now speech is the most  safe. Outside of college, most of the sjw groups cant do anything.

While anti trump groups getting their information taken by the full weight of the government. Right wing groups can have an armed taken over of places and not been convited

White suprmancy where the hatred on thier sleeve. BLM least have the decency not to call thier groups KILL whitie.

If they did doubt they get a permit. Doubt they would allowed to be armed. Doubt you can stand out a trump Rally being anti armed with guns like you could obama.  Let people like Occupy Wall street get pepper spray. And dont get me wrong this under dems and republicans. They united in their hatred of Hippies and drum circles apparently. Left wing groups treat like shit under most presidents. And right wing groups treated with kid gloves.

So if anything pushes left wing groups to being extreme..that shit does

MTL76

  • ********
  • 9416
  • +1111/-11
  • "What if I know all your secrets, Your Eminence?"
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2017, 01:31:38 PM »
Left wing groups treat like shit under most presidents. And right wing groups treated with kid gloves.

I've lost count as to how many times Antifa has trashed urban centers en masse with minimal to no consequences. It's happened multiple times in Berkeley alone. The most recent one was one week ago, where they attacked a “No to Marxism” rally advertised as saying “no extremists will be allowed in. No Nazis, Communists, KKK, Antifa, white supremacists .  .  . or white nationalists.” They've had multiple write-ups in mainstream media over the last few weeks that have airbrushed their image. How exactly are they being treated like shit?

Ben Shapiro is due to speak in Berkeley in two weeks. He is not a white nationalist, or a fascist, or a radical. He's a mainstream conservative. But he's had to pony up $15,000 to pay for private security. Why is that?



Minority Shareholder, Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles (CHOAM)

The Create A Team / Power Set Combo Compendium

therock

  • ********
  • 7903
  • +23/-63
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2017, 02:28:57 PM »
Left wing groups treat like shit under most presidents. And right wing groups treated with kid gloves.

I've lost count as to how many times Antifa has trashed urban centers en masse with minimal to no consequences. It's happened multiple times in Berkeley alone. The most recent one was one week ago, where they attacked a “No to Marxism” rally advertised as saying “no extremists will be allowed in. No Nazis, Communists, KKK, Antifa, white supremacists .  .  . or white nationalists.” They've had multiple write-ups in mainstream media over the last few weeks that have airbrushed their image. How exactly are they being treated like shit?

Ben Shapiro is due to speak in Berkeley in two weeks. He is not a white nationalist, or a fascist, or a radical. He's a mainstream conservative. But he's had to pony up $15,000 to pay for private security. Why is that?

And law enforment  tend to arrest arrest them when they do. And as of why he has 15,000 dollar worth of security. Probally because he feel threten. Not saying they arent radical left groups.  It just Anifita tends to get lump in with every time some left wing protestor does something bad. But maybe I am wrong. What incidents happen where there were no arrest.  If the one you talking about was the recent Berkley one there were multiple arrest. Which how it should be.

When I talk about kids gloves talk about how protesters general treated by law enforcments compared to right wing guys. Not the media. I am talking about non violent protestors like occupy who get taze. People who get tear gas tossed at them..sand bags shot at them

I am talking about on the other hand someone can have an ARMED take over ..points guns at police...and not a single conviction. Then do it a SECOND time. And handle it smoothly. Not that they shouldnt have handle it smoothly. But they should do the same thing when its a left group

You want to talk about Anifa. Lets say Aniftfa did the same thing. Do you honestly think it be handled the same way. Now if your answer is YES they would...or no they would be treated better...I get your statment. Disagree with it but get it

but if you answer is no...they be treated worst...then that the type of double standard I am talking about with law enforcement

MTL76

  • ********
  • 9416
  • +1111/-11
  • "What if I know all your secrets, Your Eminence?"
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2017, 02:41:27 PM »
Quote
It just Anifita tends to get lump in with every time some left wing protestor does something bad.

So Antifa are moderate? Which more radical Leftist group are they getting lumped in with?


Minority Shareholder, Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles (CHOAM)

The Create A Team / Power Set Combo Compendium

XerxesTWD

  • *****
  • 5001
  • +54/-17
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2017, 02:45:41 PM »
He's saying every time a left-wing protestor does something stupid, bad, or violent, they're almost immediately called "Antifa" when they might just be stupid and have no association with the group.


This is something very different from the other end of the spectrum with the white nationalists.

MTL76

  • ********
  • 9416
  • +1111/-11
  • "What if I know all your secrets, Your Eminence?"
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2017, 03:03:58 PM »
Steve Scalise's shooter was, to my knowledge, never labeled as Antifa. He was a lone wolf nutjob.

The driver who ran the woman over in Charlottesville is directly associated with far Roght/white supremacy groups. The guy in Portland who tried to stab some Muslims in Portland? Lone wolf nutjob.

Far Left agitators get labeled as Antifa when they assemble at events with other Antifa members, come dressed in black clothing and masks as other Antifa members do, and engage in acts of violence and mayhem that are routinely endorsed by Antifa websites and spokespeople. Is Antifa a formal organization with membership dues, rolls, and so on? No. That doesn't allow them to disavow anyone who engages in the activities listed above as not being "real" Antifa.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 03:09:20 PM by MTL76 »


Minority Shareholder, Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles (CHOAM)

The Create A Team / Power Set Combo Compendium

therock

  • ********
  • 7903
  • +23/-63
    • View Profile
Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2017, 03:10:56 PM »
Quote
It just Anifita tends to get lump in with every time some left wing protestor does something bad.

So Antifa are moderate? Which more radical Leftist group are they getting lumped in with?

When did I say that


Thier bad...but they dont represent every bad thing a lefist happen. I wouldnt blame them for that mental handicap kid getting beating up for example

just like I am not going to to blame Bribert..Alt right group for every hate crime. . or blame the west baptist for every anti gay crime.  Their should be bad enough where I dont have the invent shit