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ANTIFA: smash or trash?

therock

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2017, 07:14:58 PM »
in fact got a great example

Remember when Trump argued that Muslims were celberating 911 in NJ. That was bullshit. But no one made the argument...

"Even if they did that wouldnt justify change laws of who come in. As long as they were citezens they DO have the right to do so. Freedom of speech and all that. It sucked but if they want to celebrate 911 publicly it well with in there right. Hell depending on there state they have the right doing it while armed to the teeth."


No one said that. Which why I knew that never happen. Because if that did  happen the ass whuppin that would follow of them would be epic and ripple through the generations. They be pepper spray, tazering and the like

Toilet Bunny

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2017, 10:07:15 PM »
As others have said, I'm in favor of free speech, even if it's some assholes promoting their own race as superior.  If we're talking about extreme right wingers stockpiling weapons and taking over a ranch by force or something, then we have a problem and the authorities need to take them out pronto.  Some dumbasses carrying tiki torches is not something I'm too concerned with.

The thing about Antifa and similar groups, is they tend to lump actual Nazis in with simple conservatives, or liberals who criticize identity politics, or anyone else they disagree with.  I legit saw a person once describe Bernie Sanders supporters at Nazi sympathizers.  Sometimes they attack people who have nothing to do with what they're pissed about or they start destroying property or blocking roads, which does more harm than good for their cause.  In fact, Chomsky wrote a brilliant piece about how these groups are playing into the hands of right wingers.  Radicalizing themselves will only embolden them and possibly make their numbers grow.  On top of that, the current administration will use this as an opportunity to crack down harder on protests, peaceful or otherwise.  At their best, Antifa just gets into some fist fights with rednecks in the street and nothing is solved.

therock

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2017, 10:41:23 PM »
to me it always the sane left wings guy just got to learn to be louder then the crazy people that say they represent them. they will always be those crazy people there so you got to learn how to dismount when they get that way.

This means calling out the people. Like during Trump vs Clinton...and the whole election. Didnt like the blocking of roads, the graffiti, tossing chairs and shit.  Said that would come back to bite us in the ass. Didnt evne like the "NOT my president" rants that hapen when he one. Or tossing eggs at trump suporters. He sucks but unforutnly by law he our president.

But not downplaying actully racism either. Even if it may hurt you temporary in the polls


Like if you dress as a neo nazi..going to call you one. Since it a statment of fact. It one of the few times Godwin law doesnt work. I just wont punch you in the face over it is all. if someone talks about saying going after people wives and children as a target. Going to say...naaa you cant do that. That terroisim. might piss off some voters saying that.  They may go...it not terroism when AMERICA  does.  But fuck  it if you might lose them...we lost a lot of voters for decades fighting for the cival rights movment too


all about picking you battles. Dont overplay trigger words..but dont downplay racism either.


Toilet Bunny

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2017, 11:02:01 PM »
to me it always the sane left wings guy just got to learn to be louder then the crazy people that say they represent them. they will always be those crazy people there so you got to learn how to dismount when they get that way.

This means calling out the people. Like during Trump vs Clinton...and the whole election. Didnt like the blocking of roads, the graffiti, tossing chairs and shit.  Said that would come back to bite us in the ass. Didnt evne like the "NOT my president" rants that hapen when he one. Or tossing eggs at trump suporters. He sucks but unforutnly by law he our president.

We do.  We're called Nazi sympathizers and racists when that happens.

therock

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2017, 11:29:27 PM »
to me it always the sane left wings guy just got to learn to be louder then the crazy people that say they represent them. they will always be those crazy people there so you got to learn how to dismount when they get that way.

This means calling out the people. Like during Trump vs Clinton...and the whole election. Didnt like the blocking of roads, the graffiti, tossing chairs and shit.  Said that would come back to bite us in the ass. Didnt evne like the "NOT my president" rants that hapen when he one. Or tossing eggs at trump suporters. He sucks but unforutnly by law he our president.

We do.  We're called Nazi sympathizers and racists when that happens.


which oddly enough with in there freedom of speech to do

But fortunly freedom of speech also allows us to call anyone right or left a raving asshole or fucking moron. Something that people got to learn with freedom of speech


It only so much one can do about the asshole of your group. Beside call them that...any behave the best way you yourself think is the best way to represent your cause. Which is hard since the crazy people always get more headlines
You just got to keep running your race.

So whenever some thing bad happens on one side and someone bring

"But what about when your side did this"

Go

"Yea that was wrong...I have a history of pointing that out when my side does it. Can YOU say the same> if so clearly what happening now is wrong and you should be fighting with me to stop it. Did you come out against that when it happen on the other side. If so and your not now..your a fucking full of shit not me""

Thay why I always see no issue with someone being fired for saying racist shit

because if i was a boss of a big company and one of my employee went publicly talking about "Kill whitie"  I be like
"Shit man got to let you go"


Also beware of false equivancy as well. A comedian or herochat poster saying something unpc vs someone with actual power saying it..is 2 different things.

Toilet Bunny

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2017, 01:38:13 AM »
to me it always the sane left wings guy just got to learn to be louder then the crazy people that say they represent them. they will always be those crazy people there so you got to learn how to dismount when they get that way.

This means calling out the people. Like during Trump vs Clinton...and the whole election. Didnt like the blocking of roads, the graffiti, tossing chairs and shit.  Said that would come back to bite us in the ass. Didnt evne like the "NOT my president" rants that hapen when he one. Or tossing eggs at trump suporters. He sucks but unforutnly by law he our president.

We do.  We're called Nazi sympathizers and racists when that happens.


which oddly enough with in there freedom of speech to do

I never said it wasn't.  The problem comes from the fact that Antifa justifies its own violent actions just by throwing those labels around.  Essentially, unless you agree 100% with everything they do, say, and think, they get to assault you.  That's the mindset.

scourge

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2017, 07:55:20 AM »
But there's not even just one Antifa with a unified policy. Beyond the "oppose fascists thing" they seem to be a pretty loose collection. So any claims that they're all communists(first time I've heard this claim btw) or they all assault you if you disagree rings false. Sounds like we're talking about all of them based on the potential worst of them.

I suspect among Antifa supporters you'd find a majority who make a distinction between people w/ anti-PoC & anti-Semitic viewpoints who say "get rid of/kill them all" and those who say "well I may not like it but by law he is technically our president". The first seems very different than the second and seems much more likely to get labeled a Nazi, and kind of understandably so. Meeting that sort w/ strong opposition isn't necessarily wrong IMHO.

One question: if one wanted to hold a "kill the president" march would that be protected under freedom of speech? BC if we're painting Antifa with a large brush based on its worst members, those marching in these white-nationalist events are basically marching to gain support to exterminate non-straight, white, Christians.

Toilet Bunny

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2017, 08:01:03 AM »
But there's not even just one Antifa with a unified policy. Beyond the "oppose fascists thing" they seem to be a pretty loose collection. So any claims that they're all communists(first time I've heard this claim btw) or they all assault you if you disagree rings false. Sounds like we're talking about all of them based on the potential worst of them.

I suspect among Antifa supporters you'd find a majority who make a distinction between people w/ anti-PoC & anti-Semitic viewpoints who say "get rid of/kill them all" and those who say "well I may not like it but by law he is technically our president". The first seems very different than the second and seems much more likely to get labeled a Nazi, and kind of understandably so. Meeting that sort w/ strong opposition isn't necessarily wrong IMHO.

If there are any opposing factions, I haven't seen any.

scourge

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2017, 08:16:11 AM »
No one officially says "we're this type of Antifa" as official separate factions but there is no central leadership. I've seen interviews w/ people who are in it for a wide variety of reasons w/ very different views and goals. There're no opposing factions because there are no specific factions period.

Tangentially related: http://www.salon.com/2017/08/31/the-media-is-busy-creating-a-left-wing-threat-to-balance-out-the-awful-racist-right-wing-hordes-who-threaten-civil-society_partner/

Basically I hope no-Antifa members do anything extreme or that no-one pretending to be Antifa does. White supremacists can drive into a crowd of people and still not get denounced by the president w/o false equivalence but if Antifa associated people do, that shit would be really bad. That's what I see as the main danger bc there is no central leadership to denounce or direct.

Here's a snippet of the article, it seems a little long and unwieldy to post the whole thing, but that's the link above should you want to read more

Quote

Hitler’s rise to power was largely on the backs of the labor and communist movements.  They were his “enemies” first and foremost (although anti-Semitism had been part of his shtick from the beginning: his main attack was that the labor and communist movements were filled with Jews).  And he largely destroyed them when he successfully sold the German people on the idea that “the left” were responsible for burning down the Parliament building, the 9/11 event of that day.

There’s little doubt in my mind — having lived through the era of COINTELPRO and the PATRIOT Act — that somewhere out there is a person who’s planning to commit an act of terrorism.  It may be a dedicated but deluded left-winger, or, more likely, it’s a right-winger hoping to stir things up by pretending to be a left-winger. And Trump and his friendly “news” outlets are ready to use it.

Perhaps apocryphally, Mark Twain once noted that, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it rhymes.”

There’s no shortage of examples of that rhyme, and given all the “mainstream” press now being thrown at the Antifa movement, it’s a sure thing that they’re going to be the Administration’s and the media’s next big boogeyman.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 08:18:18 AM by scourge »

Toilet Bunny

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2017, 08:33:46 AM »
No one officially says "we're this type of Antifa" as official separate factions but there is no central leadership. I've seen interviews w/ people who are in it for a wide variety of reasons w/ very different views and goals. There're no opposing factions because there are no specific factions period.

What I mean is, they all seem pretty much the same to me.  I have yet to see Antifa not supporting violence, nor have I seen them decry violent methods of the people who share their name.  I have seen footage of a few Antifa protests where they weren't violent or disrupting traffic or anything, but that's about it.

scourge

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2017, 09:11:56 AM »
One point that seems pretty universal is the idea that "facists/nazis" don't listen to anything else. Hence the violence. Hence this debate in the first place. Personally I'm of two minds:

1) there's the violence doesn't solve anything/only serves to escalate the tension -- let's call that the AP argument
2) when I see a video of a guy going around saying kill em all, etc (em meaning non-whites) one day, and then the next crying into the camera how scared he is for his safety, I'm like "fuck yes." -- let's call that the Neo argument

The thing is, I don't think I want to/need to reconcile these two seemingly opposing internal feelings. Instead I think it makes me want some kind of balance. I think Antifa should continue to make those people scared who build up organizations that devote their lives to burning crosses and rounding up/lynching those that don't look/think like them.

Antifa has never killed anyone. The organizations they often oppose, KKK, Neo-nazis definitely have. MANY people. Until they kill someone/take the violence too far, I think they're maybe okay? BUT, I fear the slippery slope, I just don't know how much I fear it. Now, they've managed to be able not to slide down it. But that potential that they might gives my a lot of concern. Just don't take it too far, Antifa. Don't incite the opposition anymore than you already have. That's where the real danger lies. That's the part that personally scares me.

It's this balance. I don't want the KKK/neo-nazis/white supremacists thinking they can get away with their shit. And it's not like they wouldn't have a scapegoat if the Antifa didn't exist. But I don't want the Antifa to inadvertently rally more people to those causes. Be careful not to go after the wrong people. I don't like the big banks anymore than the next guy, I took my money out of BoA, but smashing their windows just means some underpaid poor SoB will have to clean it up. You're not fight club.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 09:14:33 AM by scourge »

MTL76

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2017, 09:22:52 AM »
Scourge, what happens when Antifa attack people who aren't white nationalists or Fascists? What happens when they attack police officers, or journalists, or Trump supporters?  Is that considered a necessary evil?

I completely agree with your Reichstag comparison. A tolerance for low-grade political violence will lead to more extreme political violence. Allowing Antifa to riot and assault people not only encourages them to do so in the future, it encourages white nationalist/Fascist groups to respond in a more extreme way. It is a losing philosophy.

If a far Left or far Right group wants to peacefully protest, let them. The second - the very second - that they engage in violent activity, they need to be stop-checked with the full authority of the law and the judicial system, in an objective and surgical manner, every single time. It is better for society in the long run.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 09:29:17 AM by MTL76 »


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Toilet Bunny

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2017, 09:29:14 AM »
One point that seems pretty universal is the idea that "facists/nazis" don't listen to anything else. Hence the violence. Hence this debate in the first place. Personally I'm of two minds:

1) there's the violence doesn't solve anything/only serves to escalate the tension -- let's call that the AP argument
2) when I see a video of a guy going around saying kill em all, etc (em meaning non-whites) one day, and then the next crying into the camera how scared he is for his safety, I'm like "fuck yes." -- let's call that the Neo argument

The thing is, I don't think I want to/need to reconcile these two seemingly opposing internal feelings. Instead I think it makes me want some kind of balance. I think Antifa should continue to make those people scared who build up organizations that devote their lives to burning crosses and rounding up/lynching those that don't look/think like them.

Antifa has never killed anyone. The organizations they often oppose, KKK, Neo-nazis definitely have. MANY people. Until they kill someone/take the violence too far, I think they're maybe okay? BUT, I fear the slippery slope, I just don't know how much I fear it. Now, they've managed to be able not to slide down it. But that potential that they might gives my a lot of concern. Just don't take it too far, Antifa. Don't incite the opposition anymore than you already have. That's where the real danger lies. That's the part that personally scares me.

It's this balance. I don't want the KKK/neo-nazis/white supremacists thinking they can get away with their shit. And it's not like they wouldn't have a scapegoat if the Antifa didn't exist. But I don't want the Antifa to inadvertently rally more people to those causes. Be careful not to go after the wrong people. I don't like the big banks anymore than the next guy, I took my money out of BoA, but smashing their windows just means some underpaid poor SoB will have to clean it up. You're not fight club.

Well yeah, this is essentially my argument.  Obviously Antifa hasn't done anything as bad as legit Nazis.  That goes with out saying.  And I'm not concerned about the skinhead who got his teeth punched out after he called a black guy a nigger.  My concern is escalation and them going after the wrong people, both of which, has happened.

The thing we mostly disagree on is that you seem to think most legit racist people will eventually be too afraid to go out and march.  I think the exact opposite will happen.  People will start dying soon.

scourge

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2017, 09:36:47 AM »
Scourge, what happens when Antifa attack people who aren't white nationalists or Fascists? What happens when they attack police officers, or journalists, or Trump supporters?  Is that considered a necessary evil?

There's too much presumption in these questions, but Antifa is no doubt playing a dangerous game. Hopefully, as I said, they won't go down these paths. I fully denounced (on here) those kids who kid-napped that Trump supporter and tortured him. Those people are monstrous in my mind. Very distinct from the person who popped Richard Spencer in the face though. So a universal mindset devoid of subtle analysis isn't my approach. You're right, most of those things would be very bad, and I can think of much worse things Antifa can do. Hence what I said about the slippery slope.

Toilet Bunny

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2017, 09:39:20 AM »
Scourge, what happens when Antifa attack people who aren't white nationalists or Fascists? What happens when they attack police officers, or journalists, or Trump supporters?  Is that considered a necessary evil?

There's too much presumption in these questions, but Antifa is no doubt playing a dangerous game. Hopefully, as I said, they won't go down these paths. I fully denounced (on here) those kids who kid-napped that Trump supporter and tortured him. Those people are monstrous in my mind. Very distinct from the person who popped Richard Spencer in the face though. So a universal mindset devoid of subtle analysis isn't my approach. You're right, most of those things would be very bad, and I can think of much worse things Antifa can do. Hence what I said about the slippery slope.

Keep in mind that the kid in that video was never confirmed to be a Trump supporter.  They just grabbed a mentally handicapped kid they assumed was a Trump supporter.