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ANTIFA: smash or trash?

scourge

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ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« on: September 01, 2017, 10:53:06 AM »
Lots of discussion about them in other threads so I wanted to have a central place to gauge others opinions. I'm still not fully formed on my take, open to hearing others. And I know they're not one thing, lots of people with dif ideas of how to proceed under one general banner.

That said we more or less know what they stand for and I support that part. I obviously like them a hell of a lot more than the groups they oppose but that's not saying much. Of course the right wing media denounces them and Trump too but that only makes them more laudable in my eyes. Still some of their means are questionable, and while I think they show more restraint than many members of groups they oppose, those means are still extreme in the eyes of many.

So enough from me, you get what I'm saying, I want to know your take. Universally denounce? Universally support? Or something in between?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 12:18:25 PM by scourge »

XerxesTWD

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2017, 12:11:12 PM »
Jesus, put in some line breaks.

scourge

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2017, 12:17:30 PM »
I was on a cell-phone and deleted the whole damn message when the thing reset on me. Hence the block o text just to get it out there. I'll go ahead and make it easier on your eyes tho.

XerxesTWD

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2017, 01:16:44 PM »
Fighting against fascism, ____ power groups, Nazis and other shit is good. Fighting for equality is not the same as fighting for supremacy, regardless of how it gets distorted by extremists online or Fox News.

Everybody deserves the right to peaceful protest, including racist shitheads. That's the problem and advantage with freedom of speech, assembly and petition.

Shit like ANTIFA exists because of shit like racist secessionist morons taking over a federal building while armed and not getting convicted, Storm____ websites, and the absolute dumbest people coming out of the woodwork with their shithead racist views because Trump got elected. It also exists because for whatever reason, racists seem to overwhelmingly be extremely confused 2nd Amendment supporters, so they show up armed to "peaceful" events.

It's a complex issue, but like I said before, everybody deserves the right to actual peaceful protest. If they want to protest against American citizens getting treated like humans, that's their own stupid, shithead prerogative. That's how we protect those rights, by ensuring everybody gets to have them. We can't start shutting up groups because we dislike what they have to say. Power will inevitably shift and then what YOU have to say will be silenced.

scourge

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2017, 02:13:07 PM »
I generally agree w/ all of that, however I saw a (and this is a little stupid but wahatever) cartoon that had me considering the case that maybe we can't allow universal free speech. It summed up the views of a philosopher who I wish I could recall the name of who said universal free speech that the various hate groups call for inevitably leads to them gaining power and then shutting down opposition, and as much as we want to respect free speech that is too dangerous to allow. This cartoon was much more eloquent so I wish I could find it, for now, all I have is this:


XerxesTWD

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2017, 03:05:12 PM »
“Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech.” -- Noam Chomsky

We'll just have to prevent them from gaining power.

therock

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2017, 03:43:38 PM »
yea I am again violence in most sitiations.  That why I am against Saying punching people in the face even though their a nazi shit head

Hell even against basic acts of vandalism

But also for people rights to be shit heads. So if I am going to allow white suprmeicit their shit heady belief..the counter ones should be allowed theirs even when they get shiity.  Also freedom of speech only protects you from goverment intervention into your speech.  It does not protect you from being fired. This has always been the case. But people dont see to understand how social media works. or hell even how recordings work. For instance I cant go around calling people Honkies and keep my Job. The To Build the Bear orgnazation dont put up with that shit. So how white supremancy groups think they can do similar...shows an insane sense of entilement.

They only coming up now because their embolden. Because the goverment had let some shit like the bundy stuff slide, and we have the horrid president now. So they think now is the time to where their racism on their sleeve and people are cool with it. Sadly that not the case


And it seem to be a double standard on the right. Least how protestors are treated. Seen left wing protestors get pepper sprayed. tazed, or hose off. Dont see to do the same with right wing. Now this could be because The right has a tendacy to march with big ass guns, but  that just makes the cops look like bigger pussies when they pepper spray some unarmed hipster with a man bun

XerxesTWD

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2017, 03:50:17 PM »

And it seem to be a double standard on the right. Least how protestors are treated. Seen left wing protestors get pepper sprayed. tazed, or hose off. Dont see to do the same with right wing. Now this could be because The right has a tendacy to march with big ass guns, but  that just makes the cops look like bigger pussies when they pepper spray some unarmed hipster with a man bun
Definitely going to firmly agree with this final statement.

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2017, 04:32:55 PM »
I agree with their base message. I don't agree with some of their methods.

MTL76

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2017, 04:36:12 PM »
And it seem to be a double standard on the right. Least how protestors are treated. Seen left wing protestors get pepper sprayed. tazed, or hose off. Dont see to do the same with right wing. Now this could be because The right has a tendacy to march with big ass guns, but  that just makes the cops look like bigger pussies when they pepper spray some unarmed hipster with a man bun

This is HIGHLY situational. When Antifa marches in Berkeley, they are treated with the softest of kid gloves, which only serves to encourage them. They tend to avoid marching in places where they won't get preferential treatment.

Antifa bills themselves as "anti-fascist" but they are in support of Marxism/communism. These are ideologies that are just as totalitarian as Fascism. So no, they don't get a pass, they're shitheads of the same order as white supremacists/fascists. Depending on where you are in the country, they're more of an immediate threat, especially because they are given tacit support by mainstream media sources. They act like a cult. They have recognized that the worst thing to be called in America today is a Nazi, so label anyone who disagrees with them as a Nazi, thus making them a target for violence. Ben Shapiro and Dave Rubin are "Nazis" according to Antifa. Anyone who believes in a regulated border is a Nazi. Anyone who thinks transgenderism is not just another gender is a Nazi. Anyone who believes in free-market capitalism or a limitation to the welfare state is a Nazi. Anyone who voted for Trump is a Nazi. It's amusing that the media has recently compared them to Allied soldiers in WWII, as they would consider these soldiers to be akin to Nazis based on their beliefs.

No one ever said freedom of speech or expression is 100% safe. NOTHING is 100% safe. But it's a hell of a lot safer to have freedom of speech and expression than it is to jury rig the system to repress some ideas and not others. Repressing speech drives dangerous ideologies underground where they can grow. Repressing speech gives government a tool that may become unpredictable once the administration changes. Repressing speech weakens our other rights. Guess what was used against Hitler and the Nazis in their early days? Their speech and expression was repressed, and they were fought in the streets by Antifa-like groups. How'd that work out? It made people long for a stronger, more authoritarian government that would clamp down on street violence.

At the end of the day, you either trust your fellow Americans or you don't. You trust them to hear fringe ideas like ethnic supremacy and to reject them, or you don't. If you don't... you've got much bigger problems than some guy giving a speech on a college campus. People with idiotic ideas generally are idiots. Let them speak and allow normal people to recognize them for what they are. Every time a white supremacist like Richard Spencer or an Antifa spokesperson is given a microphone, they demonstrate their incompetence. So let them. And let the police and other authorities do their job objectively and prevent street violence from all sources on the political spectrum.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 04:40:14 PM by MTL76 »


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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2017, 04:41:43 PM »
I'm sorry, its one thing to not agree with marxist or communist beliefs but to say they are "shitheads of the same order as white supremacists" is bullshit. You can't get a worst ideology than one where the whole goal is the elimination of whole other races.

MTL76

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2017, 04:49:25 PM »
If the best defense of Communism is "Sure, it's a totalitarian regime, but it's got better optics than Fascism"... That's not saying much.

Fortunately, I don't have to choose between the two, which is like choosing between lung cancer and liver cancer.  You don't think there was severe ethnic-based discrimination and ethnic cleansing under most Communist regimes? Not to mention the mass starvation, degradation of basic human rights, and a complete loss of personal autonomy? Fuck Communism. And fuck Fascism too.


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NeoGreenLantern

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2017, 05:10:55 PM »
I'm not talking about just fascism. I'm talking about white supremacy. I also never said bad stuff never happened under communist regimes. The thing is their isn't anything inherent about communism that involves wiping out specific groups. You can't say the same thing about White Supremacy.


therock

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Re: ANTIFA: smash or trash?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2017, 07:06:23 PM »
And it seem to be a double standard on the right. Least how protestors are treated. Seen left wing protestors get pepper sprayed. tazed, or hose off. Dont see to do the same with right wing. Now this could be because The right has a tendacy to march with big ass guns, but  that just makes the cops look like bigger pussies when they pepper spray some unarmed hipster with a man bun

This is HIGHLY situational. When Antifa marches in Berkeley, they are treated with the softest of kid gloves, which only serves to encourage them. They tend to avoid marching in places where they won't get preferential treatment.

Antifa bills themselves as "anti-fascist" but they are in support of Marxism/communism. These are ideologies that are just as totalitarian as Fascism. So no, they don't get a pass, they're shitheads of the same order as white supremacists/fascists. Depending on where you are in the country, they're more of an immediate threat, especially because they are given tacit support by mainstream media sources. They act like a cult. They have recognized that the worst thing to be called in America today is a Nazi, so label anyone who disagrees with them as a Nazi, thus making them a target for violence. Ben Shapiro and Dave Rubin are "Nazis" according to Antifa. Anyone who believes in a regulated border is a Nazi. Anyone who thinks transgenderism is not just another gender is a Nazi. Anyone who believes in free-market capitalism or a limitation to the welfare state is a Nazi. Anyone who voted for Trump is a Nazi. It's amusing that the media has recently compared them to Allied soldiers in WWII, as they would consider these soldiers to be akin to Nazis based on their beliefs.

No one ever said freedom of speech or expression is 100% safe. NOTHING is 100% safe. But it's a hell of a lot safer to have freedom of speech and expression than it is to jury rig the system to repress some ideas and not others. Repressing speech drives dangerous ideologies underground where they can grow. Repressing speech gives government a tool that may become unpredictable once the administration changes. Repressing speech weakens our other rights. Guess what was used against Hitler and the Nazis in their early days? Their speech and expression was repressed, and they were fought in the streets by Antifa-like groups. How'd that work out? It made people long for a stronger, more authoritarian government that would clamp down on street violence.

At the end of the day, you either trust your fellow Americans or you don't. You trust them to hear fringe ideas like ethnic supremacy and to reject them, or you don't. If you don't... you've got much bigger problems than some guy giving a speech on a college campus. People with idiotic ideas generally are idiots. Let them speak and allow normal people to recognize them for what they are. Every time a white supremacist like Richard Spencer or an Antifa spokesperson is given a microphone, they demonstrate their incompetence. So let them. And let the police and other authorities do their job objectively and prevent street violence from all sources on the political spectrum.

Yes when they march in Berkly they get kid gloves, because that a liberal place. But they arent going to pepper spray right wing groups either.  They law general behave in a sensable manner.  Not like this



Thing is seen that shit happen to Occupy wall street, but never say seen it done to the right by law enforment..like say the West Baptist Church or tea partiers. Hell at the trump Rally that one dude punch some dude in the face, and the guy who got punch in the face was the one who got in trouble.  That not to say they arent crazies on both sides. Or they dont have people on both sides that are super annoying where you want to tazed them.  But how the police treat said crazies is different.  And that make one sides crazy feel more enpowered to do crazy shit

Ok lets look at the arguments that its a situational basis. Lets look at each sitatution

Couple of black dude, armed up take over a a factory or farm land. Proceeed to aim guns at law enforcement. How do you think that would end. Do you think they will be convictied. Lets called the lead tryone Bundy


Let says a couple of isis symphthaizer, decided to march while armed...would they get a permit

Let say they run over someone..would they be all like "both sides you guys"


Lets say a group GOD HATES COCKS. Decided to do shit like interfear with an army funderal...you dont think one of them would get at ass whupping. Some cop would taze one of those hippies..and we probally laugh about it


Now this could be because of bias
or that the right wing guys more likely to shoot back
Or they dont want the bias again hate groups play into so they over correct

But they clearly treated different. That not to say Cops should start tazing every right wing asshole...saying how about you taze none of them on either side unless their a threat.

Also if you where the swatzkas...actully choose to put that one. You cant be surprise when people think your nazis or racist.


I for one would never march screaming Kill whitie and expect to keep my Job. I dont have that sense of entilement
I would never walk into a store brandishin a gun cassully..because I not only is it a dick move..but I expect  to be drench in Bullets

I would never be part of a group that high caliber guns at cops becuase I would assume I be dead if said stuff happen
I beleave in trangeder rights but I wouldnt say protest a police man funeral screaming that because I assume someone would Tazed the shit out of me

So to me it no contradiciton when calling out the other side when they do that shit.