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Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent

therock

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2017, 10:39:23 AM »
White Nationalists on social media have been pleased with Trump's reaction, noting that he is blaming both sides for the hate.

They also like he didnt mention their groups by name. Which is odd since we were told by a certain orange monster that, doing that is important.

MTL76

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2017, 10:54:04 AM »
Trump is correct in blaming both "sides", though that word seems like it's making the situation more trivial than it is. Political violence is unfortunately becoming more and more acceptable across the entire political spectrum. Each episode enables the next, by giving people the desire for revenge, desensitizing people to the outcome, or making people think the consequences won't be that bad for them if they do commit an act. It needs to be stop-checked, every single time, by people from all ideological backgrounds. If there are "sides", it's people who think political violence is acceptable, and people who think it isn't. That means not aligning yourself with people who you may agree with politically, but who engage in violence.

Anyone who thinks what happened in Charlottesville is deplorable, but who thinks Antifa attacking people in Berkeley is warranted, is a hypocrite and is part of the problem. Anyone who made a joke about the shooting of Steve Scalise is part of the problem. Anyone who laughs when people who are peacefully protesting Trump are attacked is part of the problem. Yes, that includes Trump himself. Everyone across the ideological spectrum needs to take a long, hard look at themselves.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 11:09:33 AM by MTL76 »


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therock

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2017, 11:31:59 AM »
Trump is correct in blaming both "sides", though that word seems like it's making the situation more trivial than it is. Political violence is unfortunately becoming more and more acceptable across the entire political spectrum. Each episode enables the next, by giving people the desire for revenge, desensitizing people to the outcome, or making people think the consequences won't be that bad for them if they do commit an act. It needs to be stop-checked, every single time, by people from all ideological backgrounds. If there are "sides", it's people who think political violence is acceptable, and people who think it isn't. That means not aligning yourself with people who you may agree with politically, but who engage in violence.

Anyone who thinks what happened in Charlottesville is deplorable, but who thinks Antifa attacking people in Berkeley is warranted, is a hypocrite and is part of the problem. Anyone who made a joke about the shooting of Steve Scalise is part of the problem. Anyone who laughs when people who are peacefully protesting Trump are attacked is part of the problem. Yes, that includes Trump himself. Everyone across the ideological spectrum needs to take a long, hard look at themselves.


Think the difference is your will to name names of the people you think responbill in each examples

If it was the other way around. Like if a muslim guy ran over these people..he would be talking about radical islam..not just both sides. Hell you can say both sides. Radical islman..and white supremist. The fact he didnt mention them, make me think he didn't want to pissed off some of his base

And the issue is  what Donald trump has more of a effect then your average blogger or message board poster. That why people who make Jokes about shooting scalete, (or  laugh of a Trump protester getting attack tend not to be people in postion of power politcal power.). Because they fucking know better.  He not the "Lets dial the rhetroic down" type of guy. He ok for doing it for a day or two but this asshole will be back on twitter saying crazy shit.

It cant be ignored this dude got into republican eyes, doing the Obama is a muslim immigrant, he didnt really go to college, and I have a team of investigators that found evidence. He did this well passed the point of Sanity. Talked about a fake black crimes against white crime statistics, That muslims were celebrating 911 in Jersey. He had the immigrant were rapist and murders

if your a Trump person who think this is all true...the SANE choice is to do something crazy. Then it appointing Bannon and Bribert guys. Bribert with a black crime section.  Which would be ok...statistics is good but that would apply there a white crime section

Now one might say

"Of course Rock. I know the president words has more of an affect then some Random asshole on the net. Your strawmanning me"

I know you know that to makes things clear. But the question is does TRUMP know that. Because it appear he doesnt know what the president says has impact. It had impact when he was nominee. He not just some random asshole. He a very important asshole.

scourge

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2017, 11:41:46 AM »
TL;DR of Rock's statement:
Think the Scalia shooting and the vehicular manslaughter in this case are very different than punching Spencer. You could say it's all violence and a slippery slope etc, but mace or a fist (used once or twice) is very different than a bullet or a car. So I agree in part but I think the gulf btwn this or the Scalia shooting and making jokes about Spencer getting punched is a wide one. Clearly I'm one who took pleasure in the Spencer punch but it certainly isn't the only punch or comupence for a bully  that I found satisfying. That chubby kid body slamming the kid who was tormenting him for example? I could watch that all day. In short this is terrorism, as it is when a Muslim extremist acts, or a cop killer, however there aren't as many caviotes or people saying "well it happens from other groups too" when it's a Muslim. In fact, when it's a Muslim you have guys like Riv and ProjectCornDog advocating killing every single one of them.

tl;dr of my statement: violence has degrees of awfulness, and when there's death of an innocent person involved? That's awful and inexcusable regardless of the motivation, but don't play down some motivations while playing up others. (which for the record, I don't think anyone here is doing)

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2017, 11:47:24 AM »
Trump is correct in blaming both "sides", though that word seems like it's making the situation more trivial than it is. Political violence is unfortunately becoming more and more acceptable across the entire political spectrum. Each episode enables the next, by giving people the desire for revenge, desensitizing people to the outcome, or making people think the consequences won't be that bad for them if they do commit an act. It needs to be stop-checked, every single time, by people from all ideological backgrounds. If there are "sides", it's people who think political violence is acceptable, and people who think it isn't. That means not aligning yourself with people who you may agree with politically, but who engage in violence.

Anyone who thinks what happened in Charlottesville is deplorable, but who thinks Antifa attacking people in Berkeley is warranted, is a hypocrite and is part of the problem. Anyone who made a joke about the shooting of Steve Scalise is part of the problem. Anyone who laughs when people who are peacefully protesting Trump are attacked is part of the problem. Yes, that includes Trump himself. Everyone across the ideological spectrum needs to take a long, hard look at themselves.

From a methodology and a general sense? Yeah Antifa has got to knock off with the instigating violence shit.

Strictly speaking from these events? I haven't seen or heard of evidence that the counter protest instigated the violence. We do know at least one white nationalist murdered and hurt a bunch of people so I'm gonna put most of the blame on the white nationalist.

From a ideological stand point? I'm gonna side with the anti fascist than with the people flying swastikas and the confederate flag.   

LiquidSailor

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2017, 11:49:17 AM »
My bad, guys.  I mistook the brake pedal for the gas pedal for a brief moment.

DIGUSTING

MTL76

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2017, 12:06:26 PM »
Scourge - There are degrees of violence, sure. But you're mistaken if you think that the danger of a slippery slope isn't very real, or that a trivial act of violence, when normalized, won't lead to a climate that allows further acts of violence. We're seeing this play out in real time, right now.

Neo - I've seen clips of street fighting between the two groups from Charlottesville. "Who started it" is irrelevant. It's very much in line with Antifa's past rhetoric and behavior. It's very much in line with white nationalist past rhetoric and behavior. The cops should have immediately moved in and dealt with both sides objectively. As they should every time. This is where a broken windows crime prevention philosophy comes into play. Keep these two groups separated.5

Liquid - As soon as I saw it was an American muscle car, I started praying it didn't have Michigan plates.


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NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2017, 12:14:48 PM »
Who started it is absolutely relevant. No matter what the argument is, if someone takes a swing at you you're always justified to take a swing back.

And, like I said, Antifa isn't completely innocent. The side that resorted to vehicular manslaughter should get most of the blame though.

scourge

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2017, 12:18:09 PM »
re: the slippery slope of violence. I don't know. School yard fights have been around for however long there have been schools. It's normalized, usually uncalled for/inappropriate, but that level of violence is somewhat normalzied just the same. Killings at school though are no more normalized than they were since Columbine. Not saying that slippery slope is impossible, but I compare a punch to weed and a gun to heroine. Both illegal drugs, but the lack of concern about one does not instantly mean a lack of concern about the other. Gateway theory be damned.

MTL76

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2017, 12:23:16 PM »
Yes, but the people who engage in the schoolyard fights still get detention. They don't get punished as harshly as if they killed someone, but they get a proportional punishment. And that deters more extreme behavior.

So no, punching a political opponent isn't nearly as bad as running them over with a car, and shouldn't be punished nearly as harshly. But both should be punished, and both should be condemned by all people. The less extreme behavior shouldn't be glorified as harmless fun.

I'm not theorizing here. We are seeing the results of what happens when this isn't done right now.



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therock

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2017, 12:28:04 PM »
TL;DR of Rock's statement:
Think the Scalia shooting and the vehicular manslaughter in this case are very different than punching Spencer. You could say it's all violence and a slippery slope etc, but mace or a fist (used once or twice) is very different than a bullet or a car. So I agree in part but I think the gulf btwn this or the Scalia shooting and making jokes about Spencer getting punched is a wide one. Clearly I'm one who took pleasure in the Spencer punch but it certainly isn't the only punch or comupence for a bully  that I found satisfying. That chubby kid body slamming the kid who was tormenting him for example? I could watch that all day. In short this is terrorism, as it is when a Muslim extremist acts, or a cop killer, however there aren't as many caviotes or people saying "well it happens from other groups too" when it's a Muslim. In fact, when it's a Muslim you have guys like Riv and ProjectCornDog advocating killing every single one of them.

tl;dr of my statement: violence has degrees of awfulness, and when there's death of an innocent person involved? That's awful and inexcusable regardless of the motivation, but don't play down some motivations while playing up others. (which for the record, I don't think anyone here is doing)


basicly shorter version. Most people on the other side who say "hahaha wouldnt it be totes hillarious people shot people at the trump rally"  tends not to be in position of political power like donald trump. Since they tend to know better

And trump needs to learn his words, what he does, who he hires, matters now.

scourge

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2017, 12:30:08 PM »
Yes, but the people who engage in the schoolyard fights still get detention. They don't get punished as harshly as if they killed someone, but they get a proportional punishment. And that deters more extreme behavior.

So no, punching a political opponent isn't nearly as bad as running them over with a car, and shouldn't be punished nearly as harshly. But both should be punished, and both should be condemned by all people. The less extreme behavior shouldn't be glorified as harmless fun.

I'm not theorizing here. We are seeing the results of what happens when this isn't done right now.



You can't with any kind of certainty say that punching by antifa/white supremecists and some level of general acceptance of that behavior is what lead to the actions of the driver. So theorizing is exactly what you're doing.

Also note that despite the level of acceptance of that punching, there doesn't seem to be any acceptance of the car incident.

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2017, 12:30:55 PM »
Yes, but the people who engage in the schoolyard fights still get detention. They don't get punished as harshly as if they killed someone, but they get a proportional punishment. And that deters more extreme behavior.

So no, punching a political opponent isn't nearly as bad as running them over with a car, and shouldn't be punished nearly as harshly. But both should be punished, and both should be condemned by all people. The less extreme behavior shouldn't be glorified as harmless fun.

I'm not theorizing here. We are seeing the results of what happens when this isn't done right now.



oh yeah if you get caught as part of the violence you should be punished. This is more about the whole "both sides of are to blame" argument. Simply stating that give the impression that this is a 50/50 split and it completely negates the ideological stances of the sides which is extremely important to the discussion.

scourge

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2017, 12:42:11 PM »
Just want to follow up and for the most part say violence is not something I'm a fan of, despite the few exceptions of it being of a minor level and to someone who from my world view deserves it. I'd watch someone pelting Kim Jong Um with a shoe with a big damn smile on my face for example.

MTL76

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Re: Who would have guessed a white nationalist protest would turn violent
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2017, 12:43:41 PM »
Yes, but the people who engage in the schoolyard fights still get detention. They don't get punished as harshly as if they killed someone, but they get a proportional punishment. And that deters more extreme behavior.

So no, punching a political opponent isn't nearly as bad as running them over with a car, and shouldn't be punished nearly as harshly. But both should be punished, and both should be condemned by all people. The less extreme behavior shouldn't be glorified as harmless fun.

I'm not theorizing here. We are seeing the results of what happens when this isn't done right now.



You can't with any kind of certainty say that punching by antifa/white supremecists and some level of general acceptance of that behavior is what lead to the actions of the driver. So theorizing is exactly what you're doing.

Also note that despite the level of acceptance of that punching, there doesn't seem to be any acceptance of the car incident.

I'm sure there are plenty of white nationalists who are perfectly fine with what the driver did. "Hey, those Antifa fucks were attacking us. Fuck 'em."

I'm sure there are plenty of Antifas who will use this as motivation to commit acts of violence. "Hey, they drove a car into us. They have it coming."

And if some random guy in a MAGA hat or some woman with a gay rights shirt gets caught up in it, well, there's always collateral damage in War.

But let's just let it play out and see how it goes.


« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 12:52:22 PM by MTL76 »


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