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Sanctions against Russia, good or bad?

AP

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Sanctions against Russia, good or bad?
« on: August 02, 2017, 05:36:22 PM »
Do you support Russian sanctions?  Or sanctions against any country for that matter?

MTL76

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Re: Sanctions against Russia, good or bad?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2017, 06:07:06 PM »
In general, I'm against them, unless we are officially at war with a country. I just don't feel they accomplish anything except harming the population of the country being sanctioned. They alienate the country being sanctioned.

I feel similarly about establishing a zone of restricted air space over a foreign nation. It's an act of war and should be viewed as such.

As far as Russia goes, maybe I'm clueless but has anything definitive been established? All I know is that some hackers who may or may not be Russian agents gained access to Podesta's server, and lifted some embarrassing E-mails. I'm not sure there's definitive proof, and but let's say there is. This is OUR fuckup. We should assume that other countries are spying on us at all times and act accordingly, just as we spy on others. Podesta's cyber security was a joke and he should be taken to task for it. Any response towards Russia should be done out of the public eye. We should express our supreme displeasure against them in private meetings, wrangle some concessions from them, etc., then get our own ship in order.

Public sanctions are just escalating things, and threaten to get us embroiled in Syria out of some desire for revenge. That can't happen.



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LiquidSailor

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Re: Sanctions against Russia, good or bad?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2017, 06:23:19 PM »
The sanctions just passed also include Iran and North Korea.  The dems went along with it for the Russia deal, ignoring that we are punishing Iran after they pushed the Iran nuclear deal so hard.  Dems are fucking morons.

DIGUSTING

NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Sanctions against Russia, good or bad?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2017, 06:34:55 PM »
In general, I'm against them, unless we are officially at war with a country. I just don't feel they accomplish anything except harming the population of the country being sanctioned. They alienate the country being sanctioned.

I feel similarly about establishing a zone of restricted air space over a foreign nation. It's an act of war and should be viewed as such.

As far as Russia goes, maybe I'm clueless but has anything definitive been established? All I know is that some hackers who may or may not be Russian agents gained access to Podesta's server, and lifted some embarrassing E-mails. I'm not sure there's definitive proof, and but let's say there is. This is OUR fuckup. We should assume that other countries are spying on us at all times and act accordingly, just as we spy on others. Podesta's cyber security was a joke and he should be taken to task for it. Any response towards Russia should be done out of the public eye. We should express our supreme displeasure against them in private meetings, wrangle some concessions from them, etc., then get our own ship in order.

Public sanctions are just escalating things, and threaten to get us embroiled in Syria out of some desire for revenge. That can't happen.


It wasn't just the Podesta server according to the US intelligence community.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/06/06/russias-attempt-to-hack-voting-systems-shows-that-our-elections-need-better-security/?utm_term=.3a65abbd019e

MTL76

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Re: Sanctions against Russia, good or bad?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2017, 06:41:07 PM »
Thanks. I don't think this is a partisan issue and don't want to present it as such. Our cybersecurity is lax, and addressing it is of paramount concern. If you leave your house unlocked, expect to be robbed. Sanctions against Russia after the fact seem to be counterproductive. I get that the general public wants revenge, but that's a short-sighted impulse. To be honest, I'd rather all of this was dealt with behind the scenes so cooler, more rational heads prevail.


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NeoGreenLantern

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Re: Sanctions against Russia, good or bad?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2017, 07:03:05 PM »
I agree with you on the cyber security is lax, in fact worked in various types of tech and IT jobs the last decade I would probably say its worse than you even think, but the actual problem is both extremely complex and ridiculously simple.

The complex part is the fact the more complex a system the more exploits it will have. Computer code is extremely literal so the more lines of code you have the greater chance you're going to miss something that creates a back door or exploit. Now the government doesn't really develop their own software. We outsource. So sometimes these backdoors or exploits are never found or if they are found they ignored because it would be expensive to fix.

Thats the complex problem. The real problem, the simple problem is human error. My sister-in-law works for a company that just got shutdown for a week because a few people in their Ukraine office clicked on a link in a email. A ransom where virus spread through the company making all the way to the US office and shutdown production until they fixed the problem. Here is the kicker. Even though it was a simple virus that they were able to fix without paying the ransom, the ransom itself probably wasn't the end goal. The end goal could have been just to destabilize an American company and possible get access to American servers. Because once you create a pathway its easier to get to the good stuff and no matter how secure you think your system is you just need one idiot to click on the wrong thing.

therock

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Re: Sanctions against Russia, good or bad?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2017, 11:35:09 PM »
the fact there doing this to other countries you kind of have to sanction them and have to it kind of publicly

1 to show the world they now have a pattetn of doing this and to prepare accordingly . to expose what they did

2 but to show there both a political and finicial cost becausr if there zero cost more coutries would keep doing it. otherwise only good things will come from hacking us

3 and if we do counter attack privately and get caught we now got a reason to explain why. so it be no confusion

and the voting machine a big deal if true.  if they didnt suceed last time who to say they wont again. only reason this not a bigger deal is the victim not the most likable but you got to worry abot future elections

and sometime sanctions work


MTL76

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Re: Sanctions against Russia, good or bad?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2017, 11:35:34 AM »
Sanctions tend to decimate the general population of the country being sanctioned, while the elites do just fine. Look at what sanctions have done to Cuba, Iraq and North Korea. And that's them "working." As a strategy it also tends to break down when you're doing it to a global nuclear power.

Again, this was not an overt attack. It's along the lines of espionage. We need to assume that foreign powers are doing it to us all the time. To think otherwise is naive. We need to treat cybersecurity with the same urgency as the Manhattan Project.

Getting into another Cold War is just insanity, and sanctions are a big step down that road. I'm not saying we should not have some form of response to this, but a public, messy retaliation in the form of sanctions is a terrible idea that only a war hawk could endorse. How we respond is not something that the public needs to know, any more than we need to know the inner workings of the CIA and FBI. The public needs to know that this will never happen again, and that the government is taking steps to ensure this.

Furthermore, we shouldn't let this derail our Syrian strategy by encouraging war hawks to arm the "moderate rebels" in Syria and make Afghanistan 2.0.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 11:38:12 AM by MTL76 »


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therock

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Re: Sanctions against Russia, good or bad?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2017, 12:56:29 PM »
Well the sanction iran dont agree with because I dont know why they being sanction now. Since they seem to be following the deal

but note one of the only reasons we got said deal sign was because of sanctions. So it not like these guys impervious to sanctions. That where sanction PREVENTED conflict.

North korea different beat. People tried to deal with them for years and failed for various reasons. He been launching a weapons and doing pretty blantant threats. The launching the weapons with videos of the white house blowing up not exaclty low key.

Sure we are doing secret stuff with the russians it just this the public face.  Reason why it public because it somewhat politically. One group think they were screwed correctly or incorrectly..or maybe they were making excuses

other side simply doesnt want this looked into an investigated because it might make them look bad. Part of  taking the steps of making sure this never happens again is finding out HOW it happen..and who was involve. Part of that Job at this point has to be done with out the adminstration approval because the aint going to get it. Because you need reosources, man power,  not to get underminding you... and a go ahead to do your normal spy shit. Also the reatalition you probally need a go ahead.

People say well we spy to. We also drone..but if got droned..that would be a big story still and I would want an investigation

To me its a pretty overt attack in the time of cyber warfare. The attempted hacking of machines pretty huge. Because the purpose is to change the people vote of their leader against their will. You would have a foreign country deciding who your leader is with a click of a button. Dont think they succeed.  General election hard to hack. may not be able to. But a mayor or governor not so much


MTL76

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Re: Sanctions against Russia, good or bad?
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2017, 01:12:46 PM »
People say well we spy to. We also drone..but if got droned..that would be a big story still and I would want an investigation

You are comparing apples to oranges. I'm not saying we deserved it. I'm not saying we had it coming. I'm saying things like this are always happening between nation states, and responding in an immature manner doesn't help us. Our response needs to be appropriate to what was done, and not make an unstable situation more unstable. Our primary goal should be to make sure it never happens again.

Investigation is good. Prevention is good. Measured response is good.

Sanctions bad. Cold War 2.0 bad.


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therock

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Re: Sanctions against Russia, good or bad?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2017, 11:39:02 PM »
People say well we spy to. We also drone..but if got droned..that would be a big story still and I would want an investigation

You are comparing apples to oranges. I'm not saying we deserved it. I'm not saying we had it coming. I'm saying things like this are always happening between nation states, and responding in an immature manner doesn't help us. Our response needs to be appropriate to what was done, and not make an unstable situation more unstable. Our primary goal should be to make sure it never happens again.

Investigation is good. Prevention is good. Measured response is good.

Sanctions bad. Cold War 2.0 bad.


It always been happening, but so has sanctions and pay back.  The sony hack caused a VERY public response. And one said much and that was a fucking movie studion..not our country. Spying part of a game..but so is getting hit if your caught. Everyone knows that. If someone think a person a spy they nab them and lock them up. That part of the game

Considering what happen think there respone been pretty measure because if it happen the way people think it did it may be one of the biggest cyber attacks on America

Part of prevention is showing that its a cost to doing this. Not the only part but it is a part.  And the fact is sanctions have help in the past. Depends on how the sanction are done

as for starting a cold war. If they truly hacked the machines..in a goal to take away your vote and change it to someone of thier choosing..is it US that stating it. That not just hacking hillary's website to put dicks pics on there. Its a massive deal.  Because that means other countries will do this if it open. Russia might of  did it to other countries. That why other countries are for this

if this was A republcian admistration who got hacked people would still be asking for sanction. We do this for any president who was put in office. This is not an abnormal response. Sanctions are not unussual. it not a start of war, sometimes its an alternative to attacking. Like when we sanction iran and got the iran nukler deal. We have used sanciton without a full scale war.  It be odd if we didnt sanction Russia. think the only reason it didnt get a 100 percent in the senate..is because they had to add iran to it.  Which kind of dumb. Hell i would of voted against it just for that despite my talking here.

the reason people want it so public and not just the investigation because they think the admistration activly stopping said investigating or doing everything in his power to stop it. The sanction just  a message for everyone. Because other countres can do this..and if we dont take it seriously..other countries can do it. Genie out of the bottle.  Because you need resources to investigated, unless your going to do an off the books illegal investigation without the president say so. Which sound super illegal.  But investigation is the key to prevention.

To prevent you also need money for new anti hacking tecneolgoy..maybe new voting machines.. new ways to voted. All that requires taking this thing seriously because that shit aint cheap

« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 11:48:11 PM by therock »

Uhtceare

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Re: Sanctions against Russia, good or bad?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2017, 11:49:28 PM »
Sanctions tend to decimate the general population of the country being sanctioned, while the elites do just fine.
This^

The problem with sanctions against dictatorships is that even the budget of a tiny country suffering severe economic problems is enough to give one dictator and his friends and family a life of incredible luxury. Maybe, Maaaybe sanctions mean he buys one less yacht a year. That's not enough to motivate him to do anything that would threaten his power, like releasing political prisoners or allowing the press more freedom, or whatever the sanctions were aimed at.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 11:53:24 PM by Uhtceare »

AP

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Re: Sanctions against Russia, good or bad?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2017, 01:45:36 AM »
Yeah, sanctions don't mean much.  It makes the US look petty.