Robert Downey Jr Sherlock vs Netflix Punisher

[Almighty Tallest]

Holmes ability to observe things relies on completely different cues than Daredevil, and is just as superhuman. What the fuck is this Punisher jabroni going to do?

Matt can smell cologne three floors up, hear a whisper during a gunfight, feel an electric current in the air, and knows what's behind closed doors.  Holmes' senses are crazy good, but they are in no way as superhuman as Daredevil's.

However Punisher did manage to hide a weapon from him. His senses can be overloaded. And with no heartbeats from the Hand, he was less than worthless. His powers can be tricked or circumvented. How does Punisher make Holmes-avision suddenly not notice everything about him and give Holmes an instant way to win?

He's like Victorian Era Midnighter.


But OP says this is h2h only so this whole sub-argument is moot.

No way Punisher beats Sherlock in a fist fight.

[AP]

However Punisher did manage to hide a weapon from him.

Which is why it's impressive.

His senses can be overloaded. And with no heartbeats from the Hand, he was less than worthless.

He listened to their breathing and the sound of their swords and did just fine.

His powers can be tricked or circumvented. How does Punisher make Holmes-avision suddenly not notice everything about him and give Holmes an instant way to win?

The same way he did it to Daredevil without ever knowing DD had powers.

Keep in mind, Holmes was taken off guard a few times in the movies.  For instance, he didn't expect that gypsy chick to throw a knife and stab the assassin when they were at the casino. 

Also, the big dude in the first movie had him on the run due to just being a big dude that was hard to hurt.  He wasn't invincible.

He's like Victorian Era Midnighter.

That's a bit of an exaggeration.  He was able to figure out the moves of random mooks or that pit fighter.  We hardly saw him go up against a skilled fighter besides Moriarty (who was dangerous because he had Holmes' deductive skills, otherwise, he was just a boxing champ).

But OP says this is h2h only so this whole sub-argument is moot.

I know this because I am the OP.

[MTL76]

Holmes ability to observe things relies on completely different cues than Daredevil, and is just as superhuman. What the fuck is this Punisher jabroni going to do?

Matt can smell cologne three floors up, hear a whisper during a gunfight, feel an electric current in the air, and knows what's behind closed doors.  Holmes' senses are crazy good, but they are in no way as superhuman as Daredevil's.

I'm not talking about Holmes's senses, I'm talking about his ability to glance at Punisher and the environment around them and immediately deduce whether Punisher has a weapon, any old injuries Holmes can exploit, any environmental emploits Holmes can use, etc. Punisher might be able to hide a weapon from Daredevil but Holmes's "powers" work differently, and I doubt Punisher can conceal anything from him.

[Almighty Tallest]

^ This is the point I was making.

Yes Holmesavision has limits, but Punisher is not beyond those limits. For example, while he didn't expect her to throw the knife, that was only because he didn't take her into account. She was an outside variable he didn't factor into the fight so she took him off guard. In a 1v1 with just him and Frank, there's nothing else that can mess it up for his benefit or otherwise. Because he's shown whenever he involves someone or something, it works just fine.

Yeah he had problems with the 6'11, 350lb man who was basically a walking wall. Because he was simply too tough for Holmes to really do anything to. Punisher is tough, but his bones break and ligaments tear like a normal person. And he's got loooots of old wounds Holmes will figure out.

[AP]

I'm not talking about Holmes's senses, I'm talking about his ability to glance at Punisher and the environment around them and immediately deduce whether Punisher has a weapon

So can Daredevil.  It didn't stop Frank from surprising him.

any old injuries Holmes can exploit, any environmental emploits Holmes can use, etc.

And Frank won't be able to do the same?  If he hurts Holmes, he would continue to use Holmes' wound against him (The Moriarty fight shows that Holmes knows if he's wounded, his deductive abilities will only keep him in the game so long before he loses).  The same goes for using the environment against him, which Frank absolutely does in a number of fights.

Punisher might be able to hide a weapon from Daredevil but Holmes's "powers" work differently, and I doubt Punisher can conceal anything from him.

Like I said, Daredevil's senses are far beyond Holmes' deductive ability.  For starters, Holmes actually has to be in the area to use it.  Matt doesn't.

[AP]

Yes Holmesavision has limits, but Punisher is not beyond those limits. For example, while he didn't expect her to throw the knife, that was only because he didn't take her into account. She was an outside variable he didn't factor into the fight so she took him off guard.

And that shows he isn't perfect and can't always take everything into account in the spur of the moment.  He's not a Jedi.  He doesn't have precog or anything.

In a 1v1 with just him and Frank, there's nothing else that can mess it up for his benefit or otherwise. Because he's shown whenever he involves someone or something, it works just fine.

He has had problems in one on one fights even with it working.

Yeah he had problems with the 6'11, 350lb man who was basically a walking wall. Because he was simply too tough for Holmes to really do anything to. Punisher is tough, but his bones break and ligaments tear like a normal person.

That big French dude also had bones to break and ligaments to tear.  It's not like he was a superhuman.  He was just a tough dude.

And he's got loooots of old wounds Holmes will figure out.

Like what?  He got tortured, but he still recovered well enough to kill an entire cell block full of prisoners, take a beating form Kingpin, and was still on his feet well enough to take down former special ops in an ambush.  Holmes' had a nasty stab wound that he almost died from in the second movie that put him at a disadvantage in a fight (this coming from Holmes himself).  If we're talking about damage soak, Frank is leagues beyond Holmes and if we're talking about exploiting old wounds, we know for a fact Holmes has them.

[MTL76]

When I say old injury, I mean that Holmes will spot things like Frank ever so slightly favoring his left leg, so slightly that no one but Holmes could notice, and Holmes will deduce Frank had his right knee ACL reconstructed. He'll see the surgical scar on Frank's forearm where Frank's radius was plated, and will know that's a weak point. And so on.

Frank managing to conceal a weapon from Daredevil does not mean he can do so against Holmes. For all of Daredevil's super senses, he's still blind. Holmes's ability to make deductions has nothing to do with superhuman hearing or smell. His abilities are completely different from Daredevil's. In some situations, Daredevil's abilities are preferable. Trying to determine how many people are waiting to ambush him in the room next door. In other situations, Holmes's abilities are more advantageous, such as figuring out someone's occupation based on visual cues.

Holmes will take one look at Frank and know exactly what weapons he has hidden on him. That Daredevil is incapable of doing this is not very relevant.

[AP]

When I say old injury, I mean that Holmes will spot things like Frank ever so slightly favoring his left leg, so slightly that no one but Holmes could notice, and Holmes will deduce Frank had his right knee ACL reconstructed. He'll see the surgical scar on Frank's forearm where Frank's radius was plated, and will know that's a weak point. And so on.

Maybe.  I mean, Frank SHOULD be walking with a limp, but he doesn't.  It's just the way of the superhero genre.  Still, as I pointed out, Frank can soak up the damage if Holmes dishes it out.  Holmes cannot say the same as he admits in his Moriarty fight that exploiting his shoulder wound will eventually lead to his defeat.

Frank managing to conceal a weapon from Daredevil does not mean he can do so against Holmes. For all of Daredevil's super senses, he's still blind. Holmes's ability to make deductions has nothing to do with superhuman hearing or smell. His abilities are completely different from Daredevil's. In some situations, Daredevil's abilities are preferable. Trying to determine how many people are waiting to ambush him in the room next door. In other situations, Holmes's abilities are more advantageous, such as figuring out someone's occupation based on visual cues.

We're not talking about solving a crime.  We're talking about a fistfight.  Daredevil's senses >>>>>>>>>>>>> Holmes' deductive ability when it comes to hth combat.

Holmes will take one look at Frank and know exactly what weapons he has hidden on him. That Daredevil is incapable of doing this is not very relevant.

Except Daredevil has revealed hidden weapons on people in the past.

[MTL76]

Except Daredevil has revealed hidden weapons on people in the past.

That's great. Holmes is better at it than Daredevil. Daredevil is still blind, and misses out on the thousands of visual cues per second that Holmes is analyzing.

[Master]

Holmes was stalemated by an Asian martial artist henchman at the end of the first movie, requiring help (I think someone shot the henchman).

So if you are skilled enough, Holmes can't beat you. And if you're strong enough, Holmes can't beat you.

Punisher may not be as strong as the French giant or as skilled as the Asian henchman, but I think he has a good combo of both traits to win this.

[AP]

Except Daredevil has revealed hidden weapons on people in the past.

That's great. Holmes is better at it than Daredevil. Daredevil is still blind, and misses out on the thousands of visual cues per second that Holmes is analyzing.

If we're talking about solving a crime, sure.  In a fistfight, Daredevil's senses are more beneficial.  When has Holmes plucked an arrow out of the air, dodged without having to turn around, or taken down zombie ninjas by listening to their breath?

[MTL76]

If we're talking about solving a crime, sure.  In a fistfight, Daredevil's senses are more beneficial.  When has Holmes plucked an arrow out of the air, dodged without having to turn around, or taken down zombie ninjas by listening to their breath?

This tangent we've gone off on was about how Punisher wouldn't be able to conceal a weapon against Holmes, even though he was able to do so against Daredevil. Which is pretty moot, since this is a H2H fight, but this this the Schweppervescence that make Herochat what it is.

As for Holmes vs. Daredevil in a H2H fight, that's a bull for another rodeo, kemosabe.

[AP]

Holmes was stalemated by an Asian martial artist henchman at the end of the first movie, requiring help (I think someone shot the henchman).

So if you are skilled enough, Holmes can't beat you. And if you're strong enough, Holmes can't beat you.

Punisher may not be as strong as the French giant or as skilled as the Asian henchman, but I think he has a good combo of both traits to win this.

Yeah, Irene shot a guy who was beating Holmes, iirc.  The acrobatic assassin at the beginning of the second movie was also giving Holmes trouble, although he did beat him eventually.

Here's the fight with the big French guy for clarity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t1a4anQxBA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ulh7uJDsaw

The villain at the end of the first movie stood up to Holmes fairly well and he didn't seem to have much skill beyond fencing.  Sure, he was a criminal mastermind but he didn't have Holmes' deductive ability or anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi7ZOWoY9ac

[AP]

If we're talking about solving a crime, sure.  In a fistfight, Daredevil's senses are more beneficial.  When has Holmes plucked an arrow out of the air, dodged without having to turn around, or taken down zombie ninjas by listening to their breath?

This tangent we've gone off on was about how Punisher wouldn't be able to conceal a weapon against Holmes, even though he was able to do so against Daredevil. Which is pretty moot, since this is a H2H fight, but this this the Schweppervescence that make Herochat what it is.

As for Holmes vs. Daredevil in a H2H fight, that's a bull for another rodeo, kemosabe.

Yeah, the weapons thing is a moot point, but I think it's worth noting that Punisher can still hang with a guy like Daredevil and even surprise him in a fight.

[g-train]

If we're talking about solving a crime, sure.  In a fistfight, Daredevil's senses are more beneficial.  When has Holmes plucked an arrow out of the air, dodged without having to turn around, or taken down zombie ninjas by listening to their breath?

This tangent we've gone off on was about how Punisher wouldn't be able to conceal a weapon against Holmes, even though he was able to do so against Daredevil. Which is pretty moot, since this is a H2H fight, but this this the Schweppervescence that make Herochat what it is.

As for Holmes vs. Daredevil in a H2H fight, that's a bull for another rodeo, kemosabe.

Yeah, the weapons thing is a moot point, but I think it's worth noting that Punisher can still hang with a guy like Daredevil and even surprise him in a fight.

Honestly; sounds more like a bad day for Daredevil.

If frank "knew" before hand that Daredevil had superhuman senses and had it hidden "extra" good I could buy it.

But he just "happened" to have a weapon hidden so well that a guy with Superhuman senses couldn't detect it?