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Author Topic: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.  (Read 1257 times)

80sBaby

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2017, 01:54:16 PM »

Is there any indication that Cap can actually put Danny down? He has the whole "the more you hit me, the stronger I become" thing going. People are forgetting that detail from the show, bigly. Not saying that doesn't have an upper limit, or that Cap can't get past that, but it is a factor.

Movie Cap makes people here so wet, and I totally get that, but I def think he's getting oversold by anyone who thinks he has anywhere close to decent odds of taking all four, let alone the Heroes for Hire.

Danny doesn't get stronger the more you hit him lol. All that did was allow him to focus. And those were normal humans hitting him, not a Super Soldier. So we aren't forgetting anything as it's irrelevant.

Stronger punching power as he gets the IF going real quick, but not all over stronger, no. The IF can put out at least as much damage as Cap and Danny is probably similar in skill. Now give him Luke Cage as a tag team partner, a guy who can't fight like Cap, but can fight decently enough and take easily as much punishment as Cap (I suspect a good bit more) and I think you've got a problem for the Super Soldier. That said, I may sell Cap short by saying he doesn't have decent odds against the Heroes for Hire. I think that's a pretty damn close fight, I think H4H probably take it, but could see Cap emerging victorious as well. Perhaps I only sell him short to counteract what I see as an over abundance of Cap love.

That's still irrelevant as most were including him being able to access the IF here. Nobody argued he wouldn't be able to use it in their defense of Cap. And, again, Cap has faced multiple opponents who were strong and durable and done just fine.

Not sure how there's an "overabundance" of Cap love considering before I came in, nobody gave him the win.
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80sBaby

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2017, 01:55:10 PM »

Also, Cap can conceivably one-shot 2 members of the team, who also happen to be the most skilled. Nobody on the Defenders can do the same to Steve.
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TURBODERP

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2017, 01:55:55 PM »

I think the team's lack of durability aside from Cage is where Cap makes the most ground. Cap was taking shots from IM in Civil War, so he's is in this fight for the long haul, and I'm unsure Matt, Jessica or Danny can handle that kind of intensity.

Tony was holding back though, pretty substantially it seemed. He kept trying to restrain Cap or hit him just hard enough to get to Bucky.

It's still impressive, but I don't think Tony was using the same force as he was versus, say, Thor in the initial scuffle pre-lightning boost.

80sBaby

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2017, 01:58:40 PM »

I think the team's lack of durability aside from Cage is where Cap makes the most ground. Cap was taking shots from IM in Civil War, so he's is in this fight for the long haul, and I'm unsure Matt, Jessica or Danny can handle that kind of intensity.

Tony was holding back though, pretty substantially it seemed. He kept trying to restrain Cap or hit him just hard enough to get to Bucky.

It's still impressive, but I don't think Tony was using the same force as he was versus, say, Thor in the initial scuffle pre-lightning boost.

Even a "holding back" IM is still above the Defenders. To add, Cap was also taking full shots from Bucky's metal arm, to the face, at the end of WS. This was after being in a prolonged fight with him and shot several times. The Defenders aren't putting Cap down.
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scourge

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2017, 02:07:51 PM »

Also, Cap can conceivably one-shot 2 members of the team, who also happen to be the most skilled. Nobody on the Defenders can do the same to Steve.

We don't know that a direct hit from the IF wouldn't lay him out. It's unlikely, I grant you, but so is the idea that he's going to one shot two members. To elaborate:

Jessica is super human to the point where she can kill a person with a single punch. If she just stands there then she's done, but she has enough reaction time to get out of the way of or trip up people shooting at her at close range.

Iron Fist has "never been defeated". We don't actually know what it takes to put him down, and I'm not saying Cap can't do it, but it's big assumption to say Cap is going to one shot someone like that. Someone who puts the fear in the Hand more than Cap puts the fear in Hydra.

DD is the most likely to be one shot, but even then I doubt it. He def lets himself get hit more than he should, but presumably he's wearing his body armor here. Super high tech expensive body armor that has gone through a couple upgrades. Unlikely he'll be laid out with one hit either.

I know you didn't mean Cage who's more durable than Cap.

80sBaby

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2017, 02:48:43 PM »

Also, Cap can conceivably one-shot 2 members of the team, who also happen to be the most skilled. Nobody on the Defenders can do the same to Steve.

We don't know that a direct hit from the IF wouldn't lay him out. It's unlikely, I grant you, but so is the idea that he's going to one shot two members. To elaborate:

It's far more unlikely given what we've seen Cap take and what we've seen the Defenders dish out.

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Jessica is super human to the point where she can kill a person with a single punch. If she just stands there then she's done, but she has enough reaction time to get out of the way of or trip up people shooting at her at close range.

So does Cap, only he's capable of doing so against multiple opponents.

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Ion Fist has "never been defeated". We don't actually know what it takes to put him down, and I'm not saying Cap can't do it, but it's big assumption to say Cap is going to one shot someone like that. Someone who puts the fear in the Hand more than Cap puts the fear in Hydra.
Danny didn't display any super-human durability feats. NONE. There's absolutely no reason to think he can's be KO'd by Cap. All of his opponents were normal humans.

OTOH, we HAVE seen Cap take hits from people who were blatantly superhuman and keep going just fine. We've also seen him take out characters with superhuman durability. Of the two, Cap has the better record and should get the benefit of the doubt.

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he most likely to be one shot, but even then I doubt it. He def lets himself get hit more than he should, but presumably he's wearing his body armor here. Super high tech expensive body armor that has gone through a couple upgrades. Unlikely he'll be laid out with one hit either.

If Cap uses his full strength, he can definitely lay DD out with one punch. Hell, matt was woozy after having his head hit into the desk by Kingpin, who's nowhere near Cap's level.

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I know you didn't mean Cage who's more durable than Cap.

Cage is more durable but he hasn't been shown to hit harder than others Cap has faced, which is my point. If Steve can stay conscious while getting repeatedly punched in the face by Bucky's arm, nobody on the Defenders is going to one-shot him.
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Detective AP

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2017, 05:54:16 PM »

Danny didn't display any super-human durability feats. NONE. There's absolutely no reason to think he can's be KO'd by Cap. All of his opponents were normal humans.

He took a surprise hit from brass knuckles.  While it did stun him for a few seconds, he wasn't KO'd or seriously injured.  That's pretty damned impressive.
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Bandido

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2017, 07:56:31 PM »

I think the team's lack of durability aside from Cage is where Cap makes the most ground. Cap was taking shots from IM in Civil War, so he's is in this fight for the long haul, and I'm unsure Matt, Jessica or Danny can handle that kind of intensity.

Tony was holding back though, pretty substantially it seemed. He kept trying to restrain Cap or hit him just hard enough to get to Bucky.

It's still impressive, but I don't think Tony was using the same force as he was versus, say, Thor in the initial scuffle pre-lightning boost.

At the end, I'm not so sure he was holding back his strikes considering the rage he was in. Granted, he was not trying to kill Cap, but even then, that's a whole lot toward the Cap can take shot side.

I don't think Cap one shots DD in armor. But he's hurting him, a lot. I think the team take a solid majority, but Cap has the resume right now to get a few very hard fought wins.

GeneralPresidentSkeletor

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2017, 02:28:47 AM »

I have to ask: where is all of this evidence that MCU Captain America is a highly skilled fighter coming from? He's a brawler with stats that make him look highly skilled, but in reality I don't think he actually is. He's fast, strong, agile and clever...but skilled? I'm not certain you can say that.

Give MCU Punisher his stats...would the fights with Winter Soldier, or in the elevator (or with anyone else) really look much different? Doubtful. If anything, Frank + Cap's stats means everyone else would have just got fucking brutally killed, Winter Soldier included. I can buy that Cap has your basic military training, which at that time really wasn't much (my grandfather fought in WWII; you got a uniform, a gun and they sent you off to die for the most part).

After he becomes Cap, he does what? It's not train with a laundry list of martial artists or top-level instructors. He gets sent on propaganda tours for the troops, eventually going on his own secret missions. At no point during any of that is his time devoted to learning advanced hand-to-hand combat. He gets by on his stats and gumption more than his skill IMO.

That said, Cap combines a lot of things together in one package that make him a formidable opponent. Against DD and IF, I think it would look the same as Winter Soldier; a highly skilled combatant in DD (so he'll land shots and not just get his shit pushed in) and easily the most purely skilled combatant + something extra in IF. Cap isn't just going to "walk through them"; he'll take damage. Jessica? Yeah, she sucks as a fighter, but she's right up there with Luke as far as strength goes and I believe Cap would be reluctant to hit a woman...until she knocks the shit out of him. Then, yeah, he'd put her down as gently as possible LOL. Luke is a decent fighter (I'd wager him and Cap are closer in pure skill than you'd think) with far better durability than anyone else. Cap could/would dance around him a bit, but he's not pulling any fancy pressure point bullshit, and he's not going to be able to avoid all of Luke's offense. Cap would need his shield to really do damage to Luke, but what are the chances he manages to hold onto it the whole fight? Pretty slim in a large brawl like that.

One-on-one, Cap would take the majority over any of them. Against the team, assuming they work together even just a little bit, he's not winning more than a few, tops.

MCU Defenders, 7-8/10.
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Red Exodus

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2017, 02:40:37 AM »

Jessica is super human to the point where she can kill a person with a single punch. If she just stands there then she's done, but she has enough reaction time to get out of the way of or trip up people shooting at her at close range.

Keyword here, she killed a NORMAL human woman. Steve is several times stronger than Luke Cage's dead wife.

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Iron Fist has "never been defeated". We don't actually know what it takes to put him down, and I'm not saying Cap can't do it, but it's big assumption to say Cap is going to one shot someone like that. Someone who puts the fear in the Hand more than Cap puts the fear in Hydra.

Keep in mind that Danny struggled to defeat Meechum at the end of the show, as well as having some trouble against no-name grunts. Cap for all intents and
purposes, has never struggled against lesser opponents like that. The only lesser human Steve ever exchanged in a lasting contest was Batroc, and that was
him purposely holding back to spar against him, but then knocked his ass out quick when he needed to.

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DD is the most likely to be one shot, but even then I doubt it. He def lets himself get hit more than he should, but presumably he's wearing his body armor here. Super high tech expensive body armor that has gone through a couple upgrades. Unlikely he'll be laid out with one hit either.

Considering the opponent Matt has struggled with vs. the ones that Cap fights, I don't think Matt's gear is really going to help him. At all.

I have to ask: where is all of this evidence that MCU Captain America is a highly skilled fighter coming from? He's a brawler with stats that make him look highly skilled, but in reality I don't think he actually is. He's fast, strong, agile and clever...but skilled? I'm not certain you can say that.

Unless you've been wearing a blindfold on the entire time Cap has been on screen, I'm even more uncertain how you can NOT think, let alone see
that Steve is definitely a highly trained and skilled fighter.

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Give MCU Punisher his stats...would the fights with Winter Soldier, or in the elevator (or with anyone else) really look much different?

Yes, absolutely. Steve is much more of a fast moving fighter than Frank, who relies more on firearms. If anything, he'd be more like Bucky than
anything.

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After he becomes Cap, he does what? It's not train with a laundry list of martial artists or top-level instructors. He gets sent on propaganda tours for the troops, eventually going on his own secret missions. At no point during any of that is his time devoted to learning advanced hand-to-hand combat. He gets by on his stats and gumption more than his skill IMO.

So? We didn't see Jessica go through a training montage but we know that she knows how to handle herself in a fight. Did we see every single bit
of Danny's training? No. Did we see all of Bucky's HTH training? No. Black Panther? No.

Cap gets by with a lot more than just his stats and gumption. They certainly help, but his MIND, ergo his ability to strategize, his fighting skill,
quick thinking, etc., is what clinches it for him.

The rest of what you said, I don't even know where to start. Just wrong, wrong, wrong.

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Against the team, assuming they work together even just a little bit, he's not winning more than a few, tops.

And this is where the majority of you are wrong. And the reasons for it, are just not at all substantial in the least.
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Almighty Tallest

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2017, 02:51:43 AM »

So Bucky, who is Cap's equal and superior in some fights(outright beats Cap a few times), takes hits from Agent 13(no feats whatsoever), Tony with a gauntlet(no fighting feats), and a suitless Panther(at this point, no feats) during his escape as they come at him rank and file. But Cap will manhandle a guy as strong if not stronger and way more durable who is highly skilled for the MCU(Cage was a Marine, a Cop, a Golden Gloves fighter, and a Prison Fight Champion), arguably the most skilled person shown so far in Danny, Jones who is Cage-lite when she's not holding back, which she won't be against Steve. And Daredevil, who if nothing else is a good distraction.

And Cage appears to have walked off the IF, but I don't think Steve would. It might not take him down, but it'd definitely put him on the ropes. Unless Danny used the final Fist that broke that entire floor.

Cap wins a few, but he's not getting a majority against 2 people with strength as great or greater than Steve, and a guy with a cannon for a punch.

Also, yes Jones only killed a normal woman with a punch. But it was a punch with very little effort involved, sent her flying, and was damaging enough that professionals didn't argue when people said she got hit by a city bus. Steve's not just gonna eat one of those and ignore it.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 02:56:37 AM by Almighty Tallest »
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Detective AP

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2017, 03:09:23 AM »

Cap has taken several hits that would kill normal humans.
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therock

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2017, 03:11:34 AM »

does cap get his shield, because that change  the numbers
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Almighty Tallest

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2017, 03:12:33 AM »

Cap has taken several hits that would kill normal humans.

Never said he wouldn't. I said he wouldn't ignore Jones full force punch, which was strong enough to make people okay with saying, "Yeah, she definitely got hit by a bus."

Nor will he ignore Luke's punches. Or Danny's IF, which has leveled an entire floor of a skyscraper.

Plus all these hits from at these guys will be adding up and they won't just stand there in a straight line waiting for their chance. They're gonna jump him.

Detective AP

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Re: MCU Defenders vs MCU Captain America.
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2017, 04:18:17 AM »

Who said he would "ignore" anyone's punches?
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