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"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"

Upper_Krust

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Been chuckling all day at this stuff since I read it earlier on Bleeding Cool.

Marvel have fucked the comics up so badly these past few years you have to suspect Axel is on the way out. All their best talent has walked (presumably because of a combination of Editorial interference over constant Events* and the idiotic feminist agenda being pandered to in so many of the books).

*Only 5 this year though.  ::)

The comics market is slow to change. It takes a lot to get large numbers of fans to drop the titles of their favourite characters. But fan opinion has been like a snowball going downhill and the more it travels the more fans it collects who abandon the Marvel Mountain. So it has taken a few years to get to this point and all the while Marvel are STILL in denial so we will see their sales continue to drop and EVEN AFTER they wake up, sales will STILL continue to drop because the market, as it was slow to abandon them, will be slow to return to them. So BARE MINIMUM I see sales falling at Marvel for the next 18 months to 2 years.

On a personal level I have been sickened for some years now at their treatment of Thor (and to a lesser extent Hulk).

By the sacred blood of Odin I swear I'll never buy ANY Marvel title* while Jane Foster is 'Thor' and I'll never buy another Jason Aaron book in my life.

*Pre-Disney back issues/trades I may occasionally dabble in.

Upper_Krust

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I don't think its giving enough information to really say no one wants diversity. I mean what titles weren't selling? No one seemed hyped for Ironheart so I wouldn't be surprised that wasn't being picked up. I haven't read it but I read America was pretty bad. On the other hand Spider-Gwen and Gwenpool seemed to be pretty popular. I've read both and both are pretty fun.

...its worse than you think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P01Mt_JFmM

Upper_Krust

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I don't think its giving enough information to really say no one wants diversity. I mean what titles weren't selling? No one seemed hyped for Ironheart so I wouldn't be surprised that wasn't being picked up. I haven't read it but I read America was pretty bad. On the other hand Spider-Gwen and Gwenpool seemed to be pretty popular. I've read both and both are pretty fun.

Issue #5 where unarmoured 15 year old RiRi beats up multiple armoured ninja robots with her fists, in a few seconds hacks Techno-Golem's armour a villain who defeated Iron Man + War Machine, and then one-shots the villain once she's out of her armour.

I believe that constitutes a 'Mary Sue'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2fhRwmkOAI

AP

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maybe this the SJW in me. But never saw an issue with that stuff, since they always seems temporary like Wearwolf Cap,  Frankencastle, Angel Punisher (damm Punisher had some tough runs)


or Jim Gordon batman, Dick Grayson Batman,  Arazel Batman, Deadbatman (damm been a couple of batmans)


Also black spiderman was in an alternate universe. And he was kind of popular.

Now stuff like Black firstorm I can get. Because that seem who they going with for the time being since the public regonize him as black now. Since they reaching a Jon stewart type situation at this point. Since he on the TV show and the games, and in the show they killed of the white one. So far he aint coming back

Or black Wally. since again he getting the most public eye balls. Or black Iris from flash (black Iris is also the name of a new drug hitting the streets)

You're missing my point.

With Miles Morales and Peter Parker around at the same time, Miles will always be just the black Spider-Man.  You pointing out how temporary it all is proves my stance even further that very few people are ever going to truly give a shit.

If Marvel wanted these characters to shine, they should have created original characters or focus on the minority characters they already have.

it wasnt termpary in the unverse it was in. He one of the few that may not be termpoary.  And he became popular. Girl thor..yea thats not tempoary. Jon Stewart was just the black green Lantern..but if they didnt suddenly introduce them you might not have that character. At one point he took over the title, then it was guy. I fucking love guy gardner as a character. Him and Gnort was kind of fun. Now he good character for writer to used. But you had to give a limelight for people to know this new guy.  You might not have She Hulk. Which was girl Hulk that was very quickly made because they didnt want TV to create the character. or Supergirl.  or Batgirl. That started as batwoman. Which was introduce to make sure people knew batman was down for the puss. All started as marketing..to get broaden the fan base. Robin was created for young boys to say "Hey i can hang with batman yippie" and for batman to explain expostion to. A gimmik. Sometime you got to force it. Some of those old minority character are forgotten for a reason. Appache Cheif not making a comeback. So at times you got to tossed shit at the wall and see what sticks. Most shit dont others come out well.


like imp said at one point in history you had Alan Scot get replace by Hal Jordan. Maybe if the net was around at the town people would bitch

my point is BECAUSE it tempary..like say your hydra cap they shouldnt really get that mad. It just testing character out. Like DC wanted to introduce majectic  in the DCU, that guy took over superman for a bit. Same with Mon-el. All character were new at one point

Yeah, you're still missing my point.

Dlbiininja

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Or look at what they did with Falcon. Falcon's a character with a long history. He's one of Marvel's iconic black heroes. He recently debuted in the Marvel cinematic universe. He's got the kind of powerset that you can stick him in a wide variety of stories. So what do they do? Make a Falcon solo series, put a hotshot writer and artist team on it, sprinkle some well-written crossovers? No, they make him the new Captain America for some stupid fucking reason. Then when the series does poorly, blame it on fans rejecting "diversity." Don't they see they're disrespecting the character?

I don't know about that.  I mean even with his power set.  He's still a long time compatriot to cap and it kind of makes sense to hand over the title of cap to him as say Bucky.  Who was a Russian assassin And we saw how that worked out for him.  We even saw hawkeye cap.  You can say that the super soldier is also a direct connect to being blonde and blue eyed. Which of course was Hitler's dream.  But, it's suddenly a problem to give it to someone who isn't of that standard.  I think you can do just as much with him as Cap. Diving shield bombs of death from above.  Yes!
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MTL76

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Giving the title of Captain America to anyone else is bullshit, unless it's part of a story that highlights the fact that it's bullshit, like when the US government gave it to Superpatriot.


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Ramz

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What percentage do you guys think diversity pays a role here? Initially I thought it was a good margin, but after reading a few posts, these other reasons for these comics failing tend to make more sense - not to say I don't think diversity does plays a role, just a lesser role in marvels failure.


80sBaby

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Diversity isn't the problem. Yes, some fans dislike "shoehirning" new, sex/race changed characters into previously established roles. However, Marvel has a lot of other problems, like bloated events, too many events, "loose" continuity between books (particularly ones that share characters) and pushing certain franchises at the expense of others.

AP

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Yeah, diversity isn't as issue.  It has more to do with poor management and a lack of insight.

therock

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one thing is some of the new books arent just diveristy but just WEIRD and quirky types. Like Hipster hawkeye or batgirl. Kind of indie feel

Or off the radar picks, know your foolkilers, slapstick, solo

Then you got Gwen pool, spider Gwen, squirel girl. Which not sure consider SJW books. Do find Gwenpool funny and Slapstick though. Actully susbscribe to slapstick. Not sure how many of those books going to be around. Like is the Venom in Space book still out there, or the guardians of the Galaxy spin off books

Like most the book I get probally going away
Howard the Duck..and Later they put in Duck pool (deadpool + Howard)
Foolkiller
Slapstick

probally gone

Thanos6

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Giving the title of Captain America to anyone else is bullshit, unless it's part of a story that highlights the fact that it's bullshit, like when the US government gave it to Superpatriot.

I wouldn't say that the Super Patriot story showed that no one but Steve Rogers can be Cap, but that it has to be someone like Steve Rogers, and as such, as I would say Sam Wilson would be a fairly good choice.

That being said, I dropped Sam's Captain America book after the first storyarc, but that was because I didn't care for the story, not because of who had the title.
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MTL76

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Diversity is great. Coupling diversity with "You racist, sexist nerds are going to hate this!" gets old fast.


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AP

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Diversity is great. Coupling diversity with "You racist, sexist nerds are going to hate this!" gets old fast.

Yeah, insulting the fan base isn't a good idea.  It didn't work well for the new Ghostbusters movie, either.  It's baffling that they thought that would work.

Upper_Krust

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What percentage do you guys think diversity pays a role here? Initially I thought it was a good margin, but after reading a few posts, these other reasons for these comics failing tend to make more sense - not to say I don't think diversity does plays a role, just a lesser role in marvels failure.

Agree with pretty much everyone on this; Diversity is not a problem at all, but its FORCED implementation is. Various problems include:

...on Politics...

1. Replacing Characters with female knock-offs - I would have read a book about a female Thor BUT NOT at the expense of Thor. When almost the entire line is composed of female knock-offs you know they have lost the fucking plot.

2. The Political (Feminist) Agenda - Marvel are currently Anti-white and Anti-male. Just so happens the biggest comic market are white males and Marvel have been giving them the finger for some years now.

3. Mary Sue characters - Marvel's female heroes are totally boring because they are perfect (geniuses, who are better than their male counterparts at everything...and more powerful).

4. Emasculation of male characters - not content with building up all the female characters, Marvel have systematically been crapping on male characters at every opportunity.

...on Events...

5. Event Sequels - lazy, boring and uninspiring.

6. Hero vs. Hero events - lazy, boring and uninspiring.

7. Too many Events - when there are constant Events, then that becomes the status quo; its no longer an Event.

8. Delayed Events - totally destroys the momentum.

...on Comics themselves...

9. Decompression Destroys Comics - to be clear, decompression as a style works in longer format (graphic novels and trades) BUT it is the death knell of the shorter comic format.

10. Less pages, Less story, Less panels, Less Dialogue - Modern comics can be read in 5 minutes or less. They rarely seem like value for money anymore.

11. Overpriced Comics - not only do we get LESS, but they charge more for it. $4.99 for half of Marvel's books now its seems.

12. Renumbering Too Often - shows they no longer have a clue how to keep people interested in ongoing titles and its all about the quick buck.

13. Bad Action Scenes - No one at Marvel (or DC) seem to have a clue how to stage a good action scene anymore.

...on the Talent...

14. WAY too many Decompression Style SJW writers at Marvel right now - It basically seems that the way to get a job at Marvel now is criticize Trump on Twitter.

15. The Best Writers have left - I'm guessing but surely this is because of a combination of Editorial Interference on constant Events and Political Witch-hunting of non-SJWs.

16. Rotating Artists on Books (and yes DC do this too) - its a quick way to turn readers off a book. Plus here's a tip, if you are worried a book will be late, fucking get some issues in the bag before you advertise it - its not rocket science.

17. Crap Colours (and yes this is DC too) - I am sure this is not all Colour Artists but I have seen WAY TOO MANY badly coloured books recently and you have to wonder that either these people don't know what they are doing or are either just dialing it in or they are simply not being given enough time to work on the pages.

...on the Management/Staff...

18. Delusional - as we have seen from the interviews they still don't understand the problems.

19. Willing to blame everyone but themselves - again, totally in denial.

20. Insulting their fanbase - seen multiple interviews and twitter posts from staff at Marvel over the past year or two basically calling fans racist, sexist etc. That's only going to cause fans to resent them even more.

Eclipse

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I also think there's something important that the writers or editors can easily forget: If you're going to replace a character, give the original a respectful, dignified send-off.

This.

I still think the idea of the "Old Guard" either retiring or moving on from frontline duty would work great. Steve Rogers is formally named the new Director of SHIELD, so he hands the Captain America title to Falcon ("Because the world still needs Captain America"). Thor is formally crowned the new king of Asgard, so he tasks Angela with protecting Earth in his place. Peter Parker decides to create Parker Corp. so he can use his scientific intellect to help people instead of just his fists, but mentors Miles Morales because New York still needs Spiderman. Its respectful to old guard, AND still allows them to show up as supporting cast or even headlining new series (e.g., a new SHIELD series w/ Steve as the main).

They're doing this with Iron Man and Iron Heart, so its confusing why that approach wasn't applied across the board. Instead, Marvel decided that the best way to "retire" the previous gen was to make them ineffectual and/or corrupted.