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"Late ’16 Sales Downturn Told Marvel ‘People Didn't Want Any More Diversity’"

g-train

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Took Marvel awhile to figure out to stop "Batgirling" up the place.

Whiskeyclone

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They've been ramming it down people's throats pretty hard, yeah. But I think the fact that they've felt the need to do it at the expense of some of the classics, and just that the writing quality has been at a low both have played in as well. I was picking up She-Thor for a while, for example, but was ultimately put off by dumb ideas and the need it felt to just strip away any vestige of dignity or power or competence Odinson had.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 11:27:11 PM by Whiskeyclone »

-K-M-

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They've been ramming it down people's throats pretty hard, yeah. But I think the fact that they've felt the need to do it at the expense of some of the classics, and just that the writing quality has been at a low both have played in as well.

Well said

Gree

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Pretty much agree all around.

Like no need for She-Thor for example. Develop Angela more, give her a good artist and writer and give her her own book, no need to defame Thor for some weird purpose. Falcon Cap is stupid, aging all the classic is stupid. Trying to mirror the cinematic verse too much is stupid. Aging and killing Wolverine is meh and stupid
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 09:37:30 AM by Gree »

MTL76

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Jane Foster with superpowers could have been an character idea I got behind. She's a classic Thor character from way back in the day who hadn't been shown much in a while, so she has a connection to his corner of the Marvel universe. She has an interesting twist (dying of cancer as Jane, superpowerful in her alter ego), and I'm sure a good writer could have come up with a reason as to why whatever Jane's illness is couldn't be treated by Asgardian magic. And she's an outsider to Asgardian culture, so she'd be somewhat relatable to the reader.

But the way they did it... Having Thor be humiliated, for nothing? Have her not care about that? Have her taking Thor's fucking NAME, and being instantly accepted by Thor's closest allies, who also don't seem to give a shit what happened to their friend? If a stranger just showed up tomorrow using my best friend's name, saying he was his replacement, I'd want to know what the fuck was going on. How hard would it be to come up with a different name for her?

But no, that wouldn't fit Marvel's plan of replacing their icons. She HAD to be called Thor. Just as Falcon HAD to be renamed Captain America, and Nick Fury's son HAD to lose an eye and rename himself Nick Fury, Jr. They were in a bind with Iron Man, because of the "Man", which is why they went with Iron Heart, I guess.


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AP

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Yeah, a major problem is that they don't want to have orange final characters or even use prexisting minority characters (come on... Silohuette was a woman of color AND handicapped and Marvel didn't care to use her?). Instead they had a black Spider-Man, a female Thor, etc.  They even took Falcon who had his own thing going on, and just turned him into black Cap.  They will always be seen as lesser versions.  They should have gone in a different direction.

therock

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maybe this the SJW in me. But never saw an issue with that stuff, since they always seems temporary like Wearwolf Cap,  Frankencastle, Angel Punisher (damm Punisher had some tough runs)


or Jim Gordon batman, Dick Grayson Batman,  Arazel Batman, Deadbatman (damm been a couple of batmans)


Also black spiderman was in an alternate universe. And he was kind of popular.

Now stuff like Black firstorm I can get. Because that seem who they going with for the time being since the public regonize him as black now. Since they reaching a Jon stewart type situation at this point. Since he on the TV show and the games, and in the show they killed of the white one. So far he aint coming back

Or black Wally. since again he getting the most public eye balls. Or black Iris from flash (black Iris is also the name of a new drug hitting the streets)

superlurker

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maybe this the SJW in me. But never saw an issue with that stuff, since they always seems temporary like Wearwolf Cap,  Frankencastle, Angel Punisher (damm Punisher had some tough runs)

I definitely see the equivalence between turning Punisher into an animated monster or Cap into a werewolf and turning Cap black or Iron Man into a black girl.

Of course, there's a subtle difference in that the former case actually involves transforming the former characters, while the latter is just replacing them. That's the crux of the issue, and why most Marvel comics have turned unreadable -- they've either replaced a ton of characters with new writer's pets that people don't give half a fuck about, or changed established characters into something unrecognizable. They're introducing tons of new things all over the place and not building them up or trying to give them their own identity (probably because they expect wholly new creations won't stick in 99% of all cases).

This isn't really an issue of people being opposed to diversity, it's an issue of throwing out a lot of the familiar things in an insulting fashion and leaving a tapestry filled with bland new stuff that no one cares about in their place.

Presenting it as an issue of people not wanting diversity is actually fairly insulting. The issue is one of a poorly executed editorial strategy combined with some level of creative bankruptcy in many cases. It's like they didn't learn their lessons about why 90s comics sucked.

Possibly they just think that if they assembled Chuck Berry, Jimi Hendrix, Tina Turner and Ozzy Osbourne, they'd have the Beatles.

therock

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Thing is I dont know how you introduce new stuff without having to go through a bunch of stuff shitting the bed

like I dont know how people reacted when Crisis first happen, or the comedica take of Justice league happen with Griffen back in the day

or people introduction to angry black man  Jon Stewart. or Guy, or tim Drake or new superboy. Without going thing some Electro supes shit before hand.  Maybe you just have to go through a ton of cap for some good stuff to claw their way out and be part of comics. Milinstone maybe had to shit to bed, but out of it came a pretty good Static shock cartoon that people remember and he shows up in a lot of stuf

Part of introducing new cocenpts is a lot of them have to fail to find the good stuff.  I mean you might never got a beta Ray Bill out of it

So never though Iron man was REALLY getting replace with a black girl in anyway that permanent. Seen cap get replace with Bucky, so didnt  think Falcoln was permanent. It was More like Mmmm lets playtest falcon as Cap, in case we got to do in a movie. Lets see how it works.  Or lets give a new charcter a spot light

maybe it to due with how I got into some of these guys..during the time when they were going crazy. 90's era when i really collected,  Late 80's era when I first dip my toes in

Wally was my Flash when I first read (find Barry boring)
Kyle was my Green Laneter. Since started reading it after Death of Superman. Then Jon stewart due to the cartoon
Superboy was some clone with an ear ring
My supergirl was some blob thing
Tim Drake was my Robin
Jonny Blaze wasnt ghost rider
Cap was nomad for a bit
Only got introduce through hawkman myhos through the cartoon
Spiderman was married. Actully there was a lot of heroes married. I remember all the big marriage issues
An everyone..everyone was EXTREME



Thanos6

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I also think there's something important that the writers or editors can easily forget: If you're going to replace a character, give the original a respectful, dignified send-off.

A heroic death, sacrificing themselves knowingly to save the world or their family or whatever, can work, but usually that pisses off the fans, since they don't like seeing their favorite heroes die, even nobly.

(An exception can occur if the character has been through such bad stories that even the fans would view it less as a tragedy and more an act of mercy, like putting the beloved family pet to sleep when it becomes horribly sick; I'm told that the over two-year long "Trial Of The Flash" storyline that ended Barry Allen's title before the CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS was so awful, that many Flash fans believed the book was beyond saving, and why there wasn't too much negative reaction to his death against the Anti-Monitor.)

Better, I feel, to do something that removes their ability, but not their desire, to be a hero; perhaps they must give it up for some altruistic reason or other.  That clears the deck for the new character while letting the old one ride off into the sunset to a well-deserved happy ending, which doesn't piss off their fans as much, and leaves the door open for cameos, perhaps an ongoing role as a member of the supporting cast, and the ability to return them to heroism at some point down the line, either replacing their replacement or alongside them.

The worst thing to do is send the old character out in a blaze of suck, like Hal Jordan in "Emerald Twilight."  Turning him into a mentally unbalanced mass murderer?  Guaranteed way to alienate the vast majority of the fanbase.  No wonder they didn't accept Kyle Rayner.

I wonder how far back this goes...do you think fans who read Alan Scott and Jay Garrick back in the 40's got pissed when Hal Jordan and Barry Allen came around?
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Gree

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Jane Foster with superpowers could have been an character idea I got behind. She's a classic Thor character from way back in the day who hadn't been shown much in a while, so she has a connection to his corner of the Marvel universe. She has an interesting twist (dying of cancer as Jane, superpowerful in her alter ego), and I'm sure a good writer could have come up with a reason as to why whatever Jane's illness is couldn't be treated by Asgardian magic. And she's an outsider to Asgardian culture, so she'd be somewhat relatable to the reader.

But the way they did it... Having Thor be humiliated, for nothing? Have her not care about that? Have her taking Thor's fucking NAME, and being instantly accepted by Thor's closest allies, who also don't seem to give a shit what happened to their friend? If a stranger just showed up tomorrow using my best friend's name, saying he was his replacement, I'd want to know what the fuck was going on. How hard would it be to come up with a different name for her?

But no, that wouldn't fit Marvel's plan of replacing their icons. She HAD to be called Thor. Just as Falcon HAD to be renamed Captain America, and Nick Fury's son HAD to lose an eye and rename himself Nick Fury, Jr. They were in a bind with Iron Man, because of the "Man", which is why they went with Iron Heart, I guess.

Agreed they could have come up with something for Jane, like an asgardian artifact or something to make her interesting instead of destroying Thor

Imperial

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So doing nearly across the board replacements of the brands most popular characters for no other reason than to cater to tumblrinas that obsess about gender/race/identity politics did not work out?

For years people have been telling Marvel these groups do not read comics in any great numbers. Certainly not to the point where you burn so much of prior times to the ground for them. SJWs leapfrog from one subject (gaming) to another (comedy) to another (comics) to another (fitness.) It's about imposing their will and preferences on others. Not an individual interest in what they are complaining about.

I mean Christ, has there been much difference in the market focus for She-Thor, Angela, Carol Danvers, and Mockingbird? They or their titles have been presented as political, angry at the world, men are stupid/evil/oppressive, don't tread on my vagina types. No wonder Marvel's supposedly #1 female cannot keep a book and needs to constantly be rebooted to a new #1.

The smartest thing almost any target can do is ignore or shun these people right away. Then you can make changes organically down the road after they have left to bother some other unfortunate group. As opposed to having to do them under the gun of a movement that represents only itself and is largely disagreed with otherwise.

And yeah, stop overdoing it with then "This character is the best/strongest/smartest/most powerful/etc." Give readers reasons to like them as people. Not just preach about how awesome they are and drop hints that anyone not onboard is close minded or bigoted.
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AP

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maybe this the SJW in me. But never saw an issue with that stuff, since they always seems temporary like Wearwolf Cap,  Frankencastle, Angel Punisher (damm Punisher had some tough runs)


or Jim Gordon batman, Dick Grayson Batman,  Arazel Batman, Deadbatman (damm been a couple of batmans)


Also black spiderman was in an alternate universe. And he was kind of popular.

Now stuff like Black firstorm I can get. Because that seem who they going with for the time being since the public regonize him as black now. Since they reaching a Jon stewart type situation at this point. Since he on the TV show and the games, and in the show they killed of the white one. So far he aint coming back

Or black Wally. since again he getting the most public eye balls. Or black Iris from flash (black Iris is also the name of a new drug hitting the streets)

You're missing my point.

With Miles Morales and Peter Parker around at the same time, Miles will always be just the black Spider-Man.  You pointing out how temporary it all is proves my stance even further that very few people are ever going to truly give a shit.

If Marvel wanted these characters to shine, they should have created original characters or focus on the minority characters they already have.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 07:15:02 PM by AP »

Strawman Abridged

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As so often happens, it's not so much the idea behind change but awful execution that ruins everything.


Also, I wouldn't be so quick to equivocate attempts to broaden diversity in the medium with creative status quo shifts; I'd imagine these topics deserve to be attributed more weight than what amount to cheap marketing ploys in the current era. You don't promote diversity by employing it as a gimmick.





therock

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maybe this the SJW in me. But never saw an issue with that stuff, since they always seems temporary like Wearwolf Cap,  Frankencastle, Angel Punisher (damm Punisher had some tough runs)


or Jim Gordon batman, Dick Grayson Batman,  Arazel Batman, Deadbatman (damm been a couple of batmans)


Also black spiderman was in an alternate universe. And he was kind of popular.

Now stuff like Black firstorm I can get. Because that seem who they going with for the time being since the public regonize him as black now. Since they reaching a Jon stewart type situation at this point. Since he on the TV show and the games, and in the show they killed of the white one. So far he aint coming back

Or black Wally. since again he getting the most public eye balls. Or black Iris from flash (black Iris is also the name of a new drug hitting the streets)

You're missing my point.

With Miles Morales and Peter Parker around at the same time, Miles will always be just the black Spider-Man.  You pointing out how temporary it all is proves my stance even further that very few people are ever going to truly give a shit.

If Marvel wanted these characters to shine, they should have created original characters or focus on the minority characters they already have.

it wasnt termpary in the unverse it was in. He one of the few that may not be termpoary.  And he became popular. Girl thor..yea thats not tempoary. Jon Stewart was just the black green Lantern..but if they didnt suddenly introduce them you might not have that character. At one point he took over the title, then it was guy. I fucking love guy gardner as a character. Him and Gnort was kind of fun. Now he good character for writer to used. But you had to give a limelight for people to know this new guy.  You might not have She Hulk. Which was girl Hulk that was very quickly made because they didnt want TV to create the character. or Supergirl.  or Batgirl. That started as batwoman. Which was introduce to make sure people knew batman was down for the puss. All started as marketing..to get broaden the fan base. Robin was created for young boys to say "Hey i can hang with batman yippie" and for batman to explain expostion to. A gimmik. Sometime you got to force it. Some of those old minority character are forgotten for a reason. Appache Cheif not making a comeback. So at times you got to tossed shit at the wall and see what sticks. Most shit dont others come out well.


like imp said at one point in history you had Alan Scot get replace by Hal Jordan. Maybe if the net was around at the town people would bitch

my point is BECAUSE it tempary..like say your hydra cap they shouldnt really get that mad. It just testing character out. Like DC wanted to introduce majectic  in the DCU, that guy took over superman for a bit. Same with Mon-el. All character were new at one point