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Kurse vs WWHulk.

Bandido

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Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #240 on: February 16, 2017, 05:11:20 PM »
Fair enough. Sorry for all the typos btw. Going to have to do something about that.

Everybody has bad days no worries.

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My ultimate stance in the matter is that WWH would be close enough to Kurse, that he could overtake him without too much trouble. I do feel Kurse is stronger than WWH initially, though by not more more than 30%.

I think we would see WWHulk beat Kurse if we ever saw such a fight. However, I don't think he should beat 'the real' Kurse (by that I mean OS Kurse).

I am also skeptical that WWHulk can get stronger without tuning Worldbreaker.

While typically Hulk does keep getting stronger, I think he plateaus in around WWHulk levels* until he makes the jump to Worldbreaker.

*or at least any increase once he reaches WWHulk level is from that point on an insignificant one.

What leads you to that conclusion? Just that he didn't jump until going WB?

Especially considering most every Hulk has the madder stronger aspect. There was a reference in one of the issue that he was madder than ever and therefore stronger than ever.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 05:13:50 PM by Bandido »

g-train

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Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #241 on: February 16, 2017, 05:13:12 PM »
Fair enough. Sorry for all the typos btw. Going to have to do something about that.

Everybody has bad days no worries.

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My ultimate stance in the matter is that WWH would be close enough to Kurse, that he could overtake him without too much trouble. I do feel Kurse is stronger than WWH initially, though by not more more than 30%.

I think we would see WWHulk beat Kurse if we ever saw such a fight. However, I don't think he should beat 'the real' Kurse (by that I mean OS Kurse).

I am also skeptical that WWHulk can get stronger without tuning Worldbreaker.

While typically Hulk does keep getting stronger, I think he plateaus in around WWHulk levels* until he makes the jump to Worldbreaker.

*or at least any increase once he reaches WWHulk level is from that point on an insignificant one.

What leads you to that conclusion? Just that he didn't jump until going WB?

Part of that problem is; he was already dominant over most of the people he went across so why would he need to get a strength increase?


Abhilegend

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Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #242 on: February 17, 2017, 12:01:21 AM »
Abhi you ballroot, lol.

I have Thor #289 here. Thor only gets stunned because he realises Sif is in the Destroyer and refuses to fight back or even defend himself (as the narrative explains).

But that doesn't explains why Destroyer koed him in one punch. It wasn't a sucker punch as you love to tell.

Do you not understand that when you tell outright lies like this that you get a reputation as a deceitful cunt Abhi. I keep trying to give you the benefit of the doubt so I'll ask you this.

Hey idiot, Destroyer only attacked him twice. Thor shrugged off first attack and was KTFO in second attack.



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How many panels/attacks does Thor suffer on the page BEFORE the Destroyer knocks him out in issue #289?

Not many.



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So how does this rank into your POM?

Destroyer breaks Thor's arm with a backhand.

Destroyer with an immortal spirit is likely more powerful than Thor, but you don't necessarily need to be stronger to break smeone's arm. I think that is generally the assumption (and I'd say in that case the Destroyer was stronger than Thor).[/quote]

So you agree that breaking Thor's arm is above top tier strength? Why not apply same to Doomsday?

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Destroyer w. Mortal Soul = Elite Top tier (strength)
Destroyer with IMMORTAL Soul = Above Top Tier (strength)
Destroyer powered by the Soul of someone beyond even Above Top Tier (ie. Odin) is always going to be AT LEAST as powerful as that character.
Tarene is referenced as powerful as Odin in Jurgens' run repeatedly.

Abhilegend

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Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #243 on: February 17, 2017, 12:21:33 AM »
Neither will stop a scene from being canon. You can always pretend to have Alzheimer though.

Just like Superman vs. Venom is canon Abhi. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Except it is not as much of an outlier like that.

Just like Hulk getting KOED by Cap.

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The Venom (low showing) and Doomsday rip (high showing) are both anomalous showings that don't mesh with the VAST majority of Superman appearances.

Except venom showing isn't referenced at all anywhere. Superman killing Doomsday is and it kicked off a major event.

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Never even said that there was a KO. Just that it was more than a mere knock down.

Your (biased) opinion is that its more than a mere knockdown, but there is ZERO proof it was.

You are once again shouting how my opinion doesn't counts when you have zero proof of your own.

This is not how it works.

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If you do then why the fuck do you keep going on about it, lol?

Because you are a fucking idiot?

So supposedly because I'm an idiot you have to always look like the biggest idiot in the room by continually going on and on that something we can NEVER prove was a KO was definitely a KO.

Tell me more about where I said it was a KO? I just said it was more than a knocking down of someone.

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There is NO PROOF of anything after the actual attack.

Yes, there is.

Absence of proof is not proof Abhi. Do I keep having to explain the Aliens analogy here.

That is just hilarious. Major force didn't try to stop Superman and Firestorm again.

That is proof enough on itself.

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Your speculation is not proof.

So Superman and Firestorm didn't go without any trouble?

We don't know what happened Abhi.

Yes, we do. They went away on panel. Scans are already posted.

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Yes, it is clear.

Its only clear to biased fanboys Abhi.

And the ones who read the comic.

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Otherwise he would be stopping Firestorm from leaving.

Maybe he decided not to, given how easily he was knocked to the ground and he didn't want to be further humiliated.

Now that's a speculation right there.

Asbolutely! Well done Abhi. It IS speculation because ALL WE CAN DO IS SPECULATE.

Except yours isn't supported by comic.

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1. There is no proof.
2. Your reasoning is not 'CLEAR proof'...might be correct, might not be, we can't know for sure.
3. You are BIASED on this matter.

Its better than your speculations though.

We'll never know so don't beat yourself up about it either way.

Of course we do.

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You are acting like you don't have bias?

The difference is I don't have character bias...and I'm not a liar.

You are a huge idiot and a liar though.

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Assumption is not proof.
Assumption from someone who is clearly BIASED is definitely not proof.

Tell me one more time how I'm biased, that would surely prove me wrong.

Being biased does not make someone wrong.

But it does mean they have a motive to deceive and lie.

Your idiocy is again showing through.

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Arguably he knocks him out with one hit the very first time he hits him - Thor is knocked into some rubble and he's still there 5 pages later.

No, he didn't.

I own the comic Abhi - what makes you think posting a list of scan links changes the point we are debating...?

Because Thor is never shown knocked out as you claimed?

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Mangog hurls Thor into some rocks and Thor is buried under them and is still there 5 pages later.

That isn't koing someone. And Mangog attacked Thor more than one time.

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You can't just say 'no he didn't', post a bunch of scans and run away. Make your counter argument for fuck sake.

That was an argument unto itself. Tell us where Thor is koed?

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1. Mangog grabs Thor (Thor likely in pain from this)
2. Thor smashes Mangog on the head with Mjolnir (no seeming effect)
3. Mangog hurls Thor into some rocks
4. Mangog then fights the Warrior's 3 in the same place where Thor is buried (for 2 pages)
5. We then cut to see what Loki is doing for 2 1/2 pages.
6. We return to Thor who is ONLY NOW pulling himself out of the rubble.

Hey idiot, Mangog attacked Thor more than once. In the last panel, he is smashing Thor down and then threw him in rubble. Thor is never shown to be koed.



Again he attacks Thor more than once and Thor isn't knocked out.



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But the weight of evidence is clear, he's less effective each time and contradictory hyperbole doesn't change that.

It really isn't. He seemed less durable but his strength isn't lessened.

LOL. When are the two not intertwined!?

When it suits you? Like Doomsday?

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Its like saying Undertaker became less "dead" because he started selling attacks of his opponents.

NO Abhi, its like saying if the Undertaker is selling the attacks of opponents that the opponents can hurt him.

Heh, so they couldn't hurt him before but now can?

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If he's not less effective then why do we SEE him CLEARLY less effective!?

Where do we see him less effective? He knocked out Thor in one punch in his last appearance. What more do you need from a villain? Kill him?

Thor goes from...

Mangog's Durability: Thor can't hurt him (1st*) < hurts him (2nd) < knocks him down (3rd) < breaks pieces off him (4th)
Mangog's Strength: Likely 1 hit KOs Thor (1st) < Thor still conscious after 1 blow (2nd) < Thor still conscious after 2 blows (3rd) < Thor still conscious after 3 blows (4th)

Thor isn't koed by silver age mangog at all. Jurgens Mangog knocked him out thrice.

That's not being less effective at all.

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*Showings

Its a CLEAR progression

No, it is not.

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I'm willing to say its possibly just villain decay, but if so its one of the worst cases of villain decay EVER.

Uh, not even close. Villain decay is for wrecking crew and U-foes.

Uh...see above dummy.

You are just an idiot.

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Each time he becomes easier to hurt. Each time Thor can take more punishment from him.

Then how come he actually knocked out Thor in one hit in Thunderstrike?

Those scans don't show Thor being knocked out, only being knocked down. What happens after those pages?

Thunderstrike actually says Thor is down.

You are a fucking idiot.

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He's incapacitated MULTIPLE times including by Iron Man for fuck sake.

By drawing extra power from city grid and Thor cheapshotting him.

Gee whiz an entire city grid of power > every weapon Asgard has. LOL.

From random asgardians? Yeah.

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Its implied though, otherwise he wouldn't say 'power enough'.

No, it isn't implied.

Then why did he say power enough?

Not an implication that he is weakened.

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ie. Its not as much power as I once had but..."it is power enough for the task that lies before me".

Implication in italics.

That's your own theory. But here he says in Jurgens run how he has the power of a billion billion beings again.

It may well be a billion-billion beings but clearly they are not as hateful as they once were when Odin imprisoned them because Mangog is at his weakest ever.

That's just laughable on so many levels.

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If he was back to full strength he wouldn't say 'it is power enough'.

Sure he can. But the fact is , even if he was weakened in Thor 250, he is back to full power in Jurgens run.

Irrelevant hyperbole when its by far his worst showing.

Haha, so not its hyperbole?

Oh you fucking idiot.

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Thor can't hurt Mangog with full force blows to the head by Mjolnir but Thing can go toe-to-toe and knock Mangog around while Mangog flies about on a rocket sled. For fuck sake Abhi wake up. Its not only an outlier its a total comedic spoof.

Uh no, it isn't. Keep trying to dismiss it though.

Its on the shelf right next to Venom vs. Superman.

One is half way non canon. Other is canon.


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Proof? You said Thor was koed by Mangog when it is not shown either.

Mangog fights the Warrior's 3 in exactly the same place as Thor gets buried. THEN WE SEE 5 PAGES LATER Thor was STILL under the rubble.

That's not a proof of a KO. Thor has been pinned under rocks before and not got koed.

Heck, he was pinned by a pile of cars.

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I mean its not a 100% clear KO, but if it isn't what the fuck was Thor doing for 5 pages? He's still in the same spot 5 pages later and only then starting to drag his ass from the rubble. If he was conscious all the time why didn't he crawl out right away?
Maybe he was just trying to pick out the rubble. Stan Lee wasn't a subtle writer, if Thor was koed it would be referenced not implied.

You are just a hypocrite at this point.

Abhilegend

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Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #244 on: February 17, 2017, 12:33:51 AM »
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Well, better in the respect its not some social justice nonsense, so there is always that.

Story too.

It was good.[/QUOT]

Yep.

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I got the first trade, it was pretty good. Dragged out the Eradicator storyline a tad more than I would have liked (4 issues on one villain) but it was certainly above average for a modern comic.

Read the second trade.

I will. Did you get the whole run on Action Comics so far? If so what happens (in a nutshell)? i know you stated it wasn't very good.

Fight with Doomsday and a bunch of filler.

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Not really. There is no such logic in DC or Marvel universe that characters can't hold their strength back subconsciously.

Never said they couldn't, in fact I agree most heroes hold back.

Not all heroes hold back subconsciously.

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Because you can't control you subconscious mind consciously.

Even assuming that nonsense were correct it still means Superman (according to you) has to control it in the first place. Thus defeating your point.

Not if he isn't aware of any such limitation put by his subconscious mind.

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And Superman just went all out and killed Doomsday.

In the fanboy interpretation.

And comics.

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But in the writers interpretation they were like two weary boxers.

The one who couldn't even hurt the another just a few moments ago.

Unless of course he was hurting him, just not to a massive degree AS EVERYTHING INFERS AND SHOWS.

As stated explicitly. Anything else is pure nonsense.

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I have actually been hit by a brick when I wasn't looking...happy to report no broken bones.

Did you curse the brick for not following POM?

That brick was the eureka moment when I first thought of the POM. :p (no not really)

So you actually did.

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...actually didn't hurt that much at the time but the next day and onwards felt really sore.

Oucheth.

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But, unlike a sucker punch KO, such an attack (that doesn't end in a KO) doesn't carry any additional 'merit' or 'weight' to it.

Of course it does.

Based on what?

Based on comics.

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LOL. He's always at normal levels - you still can't explain what triggered this (hypothetical) mental block droppage in DoS.

Already did in detail.

No you didn't you liar, you specifically said you couldn't explain it.

Already explained in detail. Not going to do it again.

Abhi cements his reputation as a liar.

You can think of me whatever you want, its none of my concern.

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If you can explain it now go ahead and do so...if you can't we'll all know you are a liar*.

Its not my responsibility that you are an idiot.

Abhi given a chance to stop lying, doubles down on the lying.

Oh you idiot.

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Thor can't catch Hercules' punch and throw him around like a baby.

Thor throws Hercules twice in their first meeting (although one of those is using Mjolnir).

Not by catching his punch.

He probably has caught his punch at some point, though I am not going over all their fights to prove it. Personally I think catching a punch/attack still does damage to the catcher. The difference between the Destroyer is of course it can't be hurt by catching a punch/attack.

Thor has never caught Herc's punch.

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Thor saying doesn't means he can equal Destroyer in strength. He also said he was stronger than Hercules in their first meeting. He wasn't.

I agree its likely hyperbole.

So you agree Destroyer is stronger than Thor.

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However, studying the Destroyer fights Thor looks on par with him provided the Destroyer is possessed by a mortal soul. Whereas the Destroyer looks stronger when it has an immortal soul within.

Uh no, he doesn't.

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Zod vs. Superman
Superman vs. Doomsday

One was a sucker punch. Other was Superman going all out.

1. Sucker punches (that don't KO) are not more effective than normal punches.

Of course they do. It was emphasized in the very comic.

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2. Superman WAS going all out...the WHOLE FIGHT.

Uh no, he wasn't.

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So no, it doesn't. And how often did you see someone breaking both arms with just one punch?

I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing here. I already stated I thought Doomsday was stronger than Diana in that showing. You are just quibbling over exactly how strong which becomes pure speculation either way.

You just said Destroyer was above top tier for breaking Thor's arms. But Doomsday wasn't?

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Yeah thanks for that, well done 'Captain Research'...you got BOTH the bloody Issue numbers wrong, LOL.  ::)

Well, I'm not a nerd like you.

I have a wide range of interests so I'm probably not a very nerdy nerd, but happy to be called one since I am passionate about comics.

So just a nerd.

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Destroyer also manhandled Hercules like Thor has never done. In fact Hercules stalemated Thor in strength just a few issues ago.

...and Thor held his own with the Destroyer equally.

In a brief struggle.

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I was being sarcastic Abhi, but it highlights how stupid that showing is.

So was I. And no, its not stupid. Its just comics.

Issue #1 of Debating Masterclass - Abhi's top three arguments uncovered and EXPOSED:

1. Your an idiot
2. Yes it is
3. No it isn't

Glad you are learning.

/Sarcasm

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Learn these three replies and YOU too can be a Master Debater like Abhi LEG-END.

Whats in store for us next reply Abhi...

Just wait and see.

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I was flat out stating that you are an idiot by the way.

Goddammit! He's got the Abhi playbook and he's working it like a $20 whore.
Still an idiot.

Abhilegend

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Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #245 on: February 17, 2017, 12:36:56 AM »
How strong would you think Supergirl is Krusty, she knocked out Mallah who was giving Wonder Girl trouble with a finger flick.

Wonder Girl is easily class 60-70 and Mallah was overpowering her easily there.

I think we differ on Mallah "overpowering her easily there" (by virtue of grabbing her by the throat in one panel). It looked like Wonder Girl was tossing the ape around handily enough, got grabbed in one panel then Supergirl finger flicks.

She tossed him once, he gets up and grabs her by throat. When Supergirl intervenes, Cassie is still on her knees. That's overpowering by definition.

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It seems pretty clear from the scene that Supergirl never feared for Wonder Girls safety at all. her body language suggests Wonder Girl can handle the fight.
Eh, she didn't interfered because she thought it would hurt her ego. Did you even read the scan?

But you didn't tell me how strong do you have to be to do that.

Upper_Krust

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Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #246 on: February 17, 2017, 05:50:22 AM »
What leads you to that conclusion? Just that he didn't jump until going WB?

He doesn't get stronger at any other part of the story. Now you could maybe make a case for the fight with Hulkbuster Iron Man and that would be the one instance I might go along with it. But he fights longer battles with Zom-Strange and Sentry and doesn't get more angry. Its possible the Sentry's calming effect is negating the Hulks dynamic strength but its not mentioned during their fight (AFAIR).

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Especially considering most every Hulk has the madder stronger aspect. There was a reference in one of the issue that he was madder than ever and therefore stronger than ever.

Well the two main triggers of Hulk's anger are:

1. Situational Events (someone hurt, someone killed etc.)
2. Frustration over not being strong enough to overcome a certain challenge.

WWHulk was basically the Hulk maxed out on #1 (or so we think until Worldbreaker) and he doesn't seem to get more angry against Zom-Strange or Sentry.

The Hulk basically plateaued in WWHulk or if he didn't the difference was minimal.

Upper_Krust

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Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #247 on: February 17, 2017, 05:52:06 AM »
Part of that problem is; he was already dominant over most of the people he went across so why would he need to get a strength increase?

He didn't seem dominant over Zom-Strange or Sentry.

Upper_Krust

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Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #248 on: February 17, 2017, 06:15:00 AM »
Do you not understand that when you tell outright lies like this that you get a reputation as a deceitful cunt Abhi. I keep trying to give you the benefit of the doubt so I'll ask you this.

Hey idiot, Destroyer only attacked him twice. Thor shrugged off first attack and was KTFO in second attack.[/quote]

Is everyone reading this. Abhi caught RED HANDED as a liar.

1. Abhi said Thor was KO'ed in one punch.
2. Now exposed as a blatant liar he backtracks to ADMIT Thor was hit more than once in that fight.
3. Abhi is still lying at this point though since Thor takes TWO attacks from the Destroyer BEFORE the knockout blow; THREE IN TOTAL THEN

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How many panels/attacks does Thor suffer on the page BEFORE the Destroyer knocks him out in issue #289?

Not many.

Not many, that's true but significantly more than ONE HIT in that fight Abhi, rubbishing your claims it was a one-hit KO.

Despicable deceit.

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Destroyer with an immortal spirit is likely more powerful than Thor, but you don't necessarily need to be stronger to break smeone's arm. I think that is generally the assumption (and I'd say in that case the Destroyer was stronger than Thor).

So you agree that breaking Thor's arm is above top tier strength? Why not apply same to Doomsday?

I don't believe you need to be stronger than someone to break their bones. But I think it helps.

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Tarene is referenced as powerful as Odin in Jurgens' run repeatedly.

Not quite - but I can see how this would throw off a casual reader rather than an actual Thor fan, so I won't hold this mistake against you.

Tarene has the potential to become as powerful as Odin, but she's nowhere near that level. She taps a power source on a par with the Odin Power BUT she herself at that point in time cannot access all of it. She is not as powerful as Odin at that point, in fact she wasn't as powerful as Thor.

Its like the example we discussed before with some character saying Bloodwynd tapped energies 'more powerful than Superman'. But that doesn't make him more powerful than Superman of course whether he taps a source of energy more powerful is therefore simply hyperbole.

- Juggernaut taps the power of Cytorrak, but is not as powerful AS Cytorrak
- Bloodwynd may tap a power source more powerful than Superman, but he demonstrably must not be able to access all of it because he is clearly weaker than Superman
- Tarene may tap power that will see her grow into a being that rivals Odin, but she clearly can't access all of it herself yet.
- A lightbulb taps power from the Power Station but is limited to putting out 100 Watts (or whatever) at any given moment.

Tarene may tap a massive power source but at that point in the story she could only access an amount that made her slightly less powerful than Thor himself - as demonstrated by her showing against Gladiator.

Upper_Krust

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Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #249 on: February 17, 2017, 07:01:28 AM »
Just like Superman vs. Venom is canon Abhi. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Except it is not as much of an outlier like that.

Just like Hulk getting KOED by Cap.

Not sure what you are trying to say here? That other characters have outliers so...what? I don't get it.

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The Venom (low showing) and Doomsday rip (high showing) are both anomalous showings that don't mesh with the VAST majority of Superman appearances.

Except venom showing isn't referenced at all anywhere. Superman killing Doomsday is and it kicked off a major event.

When does it need referenced in other comics to be considered Canon?

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You are once again shouting how my opinion doesn't counts when you have zero proof of your own.

This is not how it works.

Yes it does Abhi.

The difference is that I am not saying my opinion is proof, merely speculation. You are saying your opinion is proof.

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Tell me more about where I said it was a KO? I just said it was more than a knocking down of someone.

So you admit now it wasn't a KO.

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Yes, we do. They went away on panel. Scans are already posted.

They left and the 'camera' never shows us Major Force again.

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Its only clear to biased fanboys Abhi.

And the ones who read the comic.

...and fill in the blanks with bias.

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The difference is I don't have character bias...and I'm not a liar.

You are a huge idiot and a liar though.

1. You are a proven Superman fanboy.
2. You are a proven liar.

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Because Thor is never shown knocked out as you claimed?

That isn't koing someone.

The difference between the Thor showing and the Major Force showing is that we return pages later to see Thor STILL buried in the rubble. Now I admit we don't have clear evidence of a KO, but its about 99% certain. 

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And Mangog attacked Thor more than one time.

He grabs him by the wrist but we don't see Thor slammed into the ground, merely thrown off.

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That was an argument unto itself. Tell us where Thor is koed?

When he is thrown into the rubble and is still there when we return to the same scene 5 pages later.

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Hey idiot, Mangog attacked Thor more than once. In the last panel, he is smashing Thor down and then threw him in rubble. Thor is never shown to be koed.

We see Thor 'selling' the wrist injury from being thrown off.

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LOL. When are the two not intertwined!?

When it suits you? Like Doomsday?

Doomsday's strength and durability are consistent. He's tougher that Superman but similar in strength.

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NO Abhi, its like saying if the Undertaker is selling the attacks of opponents that the opponents can hurt him.

Heh, so they couldn't hurt him before but now can?

If its a totally different Wrestlemania and they couldn't hurt him in the past Wrestlemanias then either he is weaker or they are stronger.

If its the same fight and they couldn't hurt him earlier before then either they are wearing him down or they have exploited a weakness.

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Thor isn't koed by silver age mangog at all.


Lying down in the rubble for 5 pages before you get up = probably KO

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Jurgens Mangog knocked him out thrice.

With multiple blows.

1 Hit KO > 4 Hit KO
Can't be hurt > Can be hurt

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Thunderstrike actually says Thor is down.

So 'down' but not necessarily OUT and we never see him KO'ed.

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From random asgardians? Yeah.

Using their most powerful weapons.

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Not an implication that he is weakened.

Its a clear implication he has less power BUT that it will suffice for the task at hand.

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One is half way non canon. Other is canon.

So you get to determine what is canon now. LOL.

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Proof? You said Thor was koed by Mangog when it is not shown either.

Mangog fights the Warrior's 3 in exactly the same place as Thor gets buried. THEN WE SEE 5 PAGES LATER Thor was STILL under the rubble.

That's not a proof of a KO. Thor has been pinned under rocks before and not got koed.

For 5 pages though? For 5 pages where he doesn't speak!?

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Heck, he was pinned by a pile of cars.

But not KO'ed in that scene, where he communicates he is pinned (IIRC).

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Maybe he was just trying to pick out the rubble. Stan Lee wasn't a subtle writer, if Thor was koed it would be referenced not implied.

You are just a hypocrite at this point.

Not at all, I'm willing to admit its not a clear KO. But its about 99% of one.

Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #250 on: February 17, 2017, 07:17:31 AM »
What leads you to that conclusion? Just that he didn't jump until going WB?

He doesn't get stronger at any other part of the story. Now you could maybe make a case for the fight with Hulkbuster Iron Man and that would be the one instance I might go along with it. But he fights longer battles with Zom-Strange and Sentry and doesn't get more angry. Its possible the Sentry's calming effect is negating the Hulks dynamic strength but its not mentioned during their fight (AFAIR).

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Especially considering most every Hulk has the madder stronger aspect. There was a reference in one of the issue that he was madder than ever and therefore stronger than ever.

Well the two main triggers of Hulk's anger are:

1. Situational Events (someone hurt, someone killed etc.)
2. Frustration over not being strong enough to overcome a certain challenge.

WWHulk was basically the Hulk maxed out on #1 (or so we think until Worldbreaker) and he doesn't seem to get more angry against Zom-Strange or Sentry.

The Hulk basically plateaued in WWHulk or if he didn't the difference was minimal.

The Hulk's madder/stronger dynamic is still in play and is mentioned at several points during the story. Off the top of my head, it is mentioned in WWH #2 by Dr Strange that everything Hulk sees makes him angrier and thus, more resistant to his magic; Amadeus Cho goes out of his way to trigger it during IH #110; and it's pretty clearly in play in the Iron Man fight as you said (also I would argue him overcoming a broken neck and depowering in the Gamma Corps mini was triggered by the madder/stronger dynamic kicking in).

I've no idea how anyone could conclude whether or not Hulk became stronger mid-fight vs Zom or Sentry. There's simply no way to tell, although I think it is pretty strongly implied in the Zom fight at least that he does.

Hulk's power fluctuates with his anger, and his anger explicitly fluctuated both up and down during WWH. The idea that Hulk was at an absolute fixed strength level throughout WWH contradicts decades of continuity and multiple in-story references. It is an idea entirely founded on the need to keep Hulk pegged to neat, fixed-level tiers in the Punch-o-Meter rather than the comics.


Cheers.

Upper_Krust

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Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #251 on: February 17, 2017, 11:15:44 AM »
The Hulk's madder/stronger dynamic is still in play and is mentioned at several points during the story. Off the top of my head, it is mentioned in WWH #2 by Dr Strange that everything Hulk sees makes him angrier and thus, more resistant to his magic;


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Amadeus Cho goes out of his way to trigger it during IH #110;


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and it's pretty clearly in play in the Iron Man fight as you said


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(also I would argue him overcoming a broken neck and depowering in the Gamma Corps mini was triggered by the madder/stronger dynamic kicking in).

I'm not saying the Hulk CAN'T necessarily get madder, I'm saying that when he's already at WWHulk levels the difference is negligible from standard triggers.

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I've no idea how anyone could conclude whether or not Hulk became stronger mid-fight vs Zom or Sentry. There's simply no way to tell, although I think it is pretty strongly implied in the Zom fight at least that he does.

Those are his two biggest tests and he doesn't seem to get stronger at any point in either.

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Hulk's power fluctuates with his anger, and his anger explicitly fluctuated both up and down during WWH. The idea that Hulk was at an absolute fixed strength level throughout WWH contradicts decades of continuity and multiple in-story references. It is an idea entirely founded on the need to keep Hulk pegged to neat, fixed-level tiers in the Punch-o-Meter rather than the comics.

I fully admit I am interested in quantifying the Hulk's anger, but I don't really care what the conclusions are as long as it makes sense.

We can never determine Hulk's anger on a specific moment-to-moment basis. But I'm hoping to be able to make a general guesstimate.

Upper_Krust

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Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #252 on: February 17, 2017, 12:23:29 PM »
She tossed him once, he gets up and grabs her by throat. When Supergirl intervenes, Cassie is still on her knees. That's overpowering by definition.

Its very flimsy evidence.

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Eh, she didn't interfered because she thought it would hurt her ego. Did you even read the scan?

Her body language TOTALLY suggests she does not believe her friend is in any real trouble.

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But you didn't tell me how strong do you have to be to do that.

I'm not convinced that Gorilla is as strong as you say it is.

Upper_Krust

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Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #253 on: February 17, 2017, 02:04:29 PM »
Fight with Doomsday and a bunch of filler.

Okay thanks, I'll avoid it.

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Not all heroes hold back subconsciously.

I'd argue that someone who generates mental blocks to hold back to save lives but then fails to use his full strength to defeat a villain resulting in innocent deaths is not a hero at all.

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Not if he isn't aware of any such limitation put by his subconscious mind.

My point is that the very act of consciously putting the blocks in place to begin with would stop the character from being a hero at all.

Imagine you're an actor and playing the role of a lame doctor who can only walk slowly. To get into the part you walk with a limp for a few days. Now imagine you are walking along the pavement and a child runs out onto the road and doesn't see a truck coming. You could run over and save the child, but the actor only limps to save the child, he doesn't run his fastest to save the child who dies.

That is basically what Superman is doing with this whole mental block bullshit.

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And Superman just went all out and killed Doomsday.

In the fanboy interpretation.

And comics.

Not the same comic I read then. They fight like weary boxers and die from their efforts.

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As stated explicitly. Anything else is pure nonsense.

If we twist one sentence and ignore all the other mountain of evidence and ignore the story we can possibly arrive at such a misguided conclusion.

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...actually didn't hurt that much at the time but the next day and onwards felt really sore.

Oucheth.

You better believe it.

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But, unlike a sucker punch KO, such an attack (that doesn't end in a KO) doesn't carry any additional 'merit' or 'weight' to it.

Of course it does.

Based on what?

Based on comics.

Any particular instances other than your twisting of the Zod instance...and note that by actually agreeing with you here it would help the POM, but I prefer to see evidence before I arrive at conclusions.

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Abhi cements his reputation as a liar.

You can think of me whatever you want, its none of my concern.

Lying to yourself now I see.

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Thor has never caught Herc's punch.

That's a bit of a hasty generalization from someone who isn't a fan of either character.

There are certainly at least two instances of Thor catching Hercules punch by the wrist, but I agree that's not the same as catching it by the knuckles. I'll keep looking though, it may have shown up somewhere.

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So you agree Destroyer is stronger than Thor.

No...at least not in the instance you cited. The Destroyer is not stronger when possessed of a mortal host.

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However, studying the Destroyer fights Thor looks on par with him provided the Destroyer is possessed by a mortal soul. Whereas the Destroyer looks stronger when it has an immortal soul within.

Uh no, he doesn't.

Based on the number of blows exchanged and the effect of those blows YES HE DOES.

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I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing here. I already stated I thought Doomsday was stronger than Diana in that showing. You are just quibbling over exactly how strong which becomes pure speculation either way.

You just said Destroyer was above top tier for breaking Thor's arms. But Doomsday wasn't?

I don't remember saying anything of the sort, I have never said any version of Doomsday was NOT at least Above Top Tier in strength.

I said mortal host Destroyer was not stronger than Thor.
I said immortal host Destroyer WAS stronger than Thor.

Thor's arm was broken by an Immortal Host version.

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I have a wide range of interests so I'm probably not a very nerdy nerd, but happy to be called one since I am passionate about comics.

So just a nerd.

You say that like its a dirty word, which would be understandable if it wasn't coming from someone who spends most of their time debating on a comic book website. LOL.

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...and Thor held his own with the Destroyer equally.

In a brief struggle.

By 'brief' you mean an 11-page fight spanning TWO issues.  ::)

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Still an idiot.

Issue #1 of Debating Masterclass - Abhi's top three arguments uncovered and EXPOSED:

1. Your an idiot
2. Yes it is
3. No it isn't

Bandido

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Re: Kurse vs WWHulk.
« Reply #254 on: February 18, 2017, 01:24:58 AM »
What leads you to that conclusion? Just that he didn't jump until going WB?

He doesn't get stronger at any other part of the story. Now you could maybe make a case for the fight with Hulkbuster Iron Man and that would be the one instance I might go along with it. But he fights longer battles with Zom-Strange and Sentry and doesn't get more angry. Its possible the Sentry's calming effect is negating the Hulks dynamic strength but its not mentioned during their fight (AFAIR).

Quote
Especially considering most every Hulk has the madder stronger aspect. There was a reference in one of the issue that he was madder than ever and therefore stronger than ever.

Well the two main triggers of Hulk's anger are:

1. Situational Events (someone hurt, someone killed etc.)
2. Frustration over not being strong enough to overcome a certain challenge.

WWHulk was basically the Hulk maxed out on #1 (or so we think until Worldbreaker) and he doesn't seem to get more angry against Zom-Strange or Sentry.

The Hulk basically plateaued in WWHulk or if he didn't the difference was minimal.

He gets stronger against Zom and the military - Beyond that, it's reaching entirely to say that any Hulk doesn't get stronger with anger, it's his whole shtick - Strange even says, "He's never angrier. So he's never been stronger."

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/4s1nHeu2t0H_DhmnutELoc3YRPJRJVOBgVGWYzs7xywcrG-WICxlsijdVDcva-gYAAj7jMBTK5qw=s0

And here, "Remember, the madder he gets, the stronger he gets." The whole fight with the new IM  here implies a strength creep, especially with Iron getting decimated after Hulk gets hit with missiles from the jets.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/s40tdt5jc8aCueMX7rjPEtcTnMU-P2FLYZD2ovjLdoD9mFFFvpwgnNxEgiGJigIjoGU-5njotYox=s0