New comic stuff worth talking about but not worth its own thread

[Whiskeyclone]

Well definitely not worst case scenario. What was that, Tanaraq had taken over or something?

[-K-M-]

Well definitely not worst case scenario. What was that, Tanaraq had taken over or something?

No tanaraq. Actually was Bruce banners daddy using the “green door” to take control when Walter died

Issue ends with Walter alive, but he can no longer transform into Sasquatch. His power is gone. My guess it will return and the reporter will become a new version.

Hulk was hitting Sasquatch with some serious shots but daddy banner didn’t care. Took it like a champ and He wanted to more mentally mess banner/hulk up then anything

[Liam Gallaghers Unibrow]

Just read the issue and it seems pretty clear to me that there's a lot more to this than just Sasquatch being really strong, sorry to rain on your parade there KM. Brian Banner is pretty clearly a key aspect of his excellent performance here.

Brian basically states it outright - "Feel that? My claws in your gut? That's the proof! Who else could ever hurt you like this?" (on a couple of occasions the art looks like the fingers go straight into Hulk's body without any kind of forceful impact to emphasise that comment).

Then you have the comment about Walter never having known how to use his power.

It's also worth observing that Hulk is clearly psyched out for a good chunk of the fight after realised it is Brian Banner, and is literally crawling away with a hushed voice pleading for him to stay back. Not exactly Hulk at his best (although he does seem to stage a mental recovery prior to the conclusion of the fight, I think he is deluding himself when he says that Brian doesn't scare the Hulk... given his own reaction here, and previously the reaction of Savage, Grey and Gravage Hulks to Brian - every incarnation has consistently shit their pants and almost lost the will to resist whenever they have encountered him).


Cheers.

[-K-M-]

I disagree. Nothing new for a character that has dynamic strength and powered by an elder god who rules over death and decay *shrugs*

He was using symbolism with the claws (like I can always get under your skin). Wasn’t like some sort of krypnonite against him. He also wasn’t referring to direct power he meant wasn’t using it properly as in kill weak people. Goes on about that afterwards. Basically you have all this power and your using it the wrong way and you should be a god, etc. Even before banners dad took over banner said Walter and him were equals issue prior.

Naaaa Hulk clearly was in control during the end. Respectfully agree to disagree

I’m surprised Sasquatch did this well and more often then not would give hulk the nod for the win

[Liam Gallaghers Unibrow]

I disagree. Nothing new for a character that has dynamic strength and powered by an elder god *shrugs*

Except it is quite clearly stated by Brian that this *is* something new. The context of that statement makes it clear that Sasquatch never utilised his power fully until now.

He was using symbolism with the claws. Wasn’t like some sort of krypnonite against him.

I'm not so sure. The first time he stabs him especially it looks like he just reaches out and his hand goes right into Hulk's chest. Hulk doesn't even bleed from it.

FWIW, Hulk seemingly overpowers Sasquatch in the grappling in that scene arm vs arm (this is before Hulk realises he is Brian and collapses mentally).

At any rate, whether Brian was talking symbolically or not: every one of Hulk's powers (durability, strength etc) are connected to his mental state. The fact that Brian produces an almost unique effect on the Hulk's mental state (abject terror and will to resist drained away almost completely) is pretty clearly a relevant factor aside from anything else.

He also wasn’t referring to direct power he meant wasn’t using it properly as in kill weak people. Goes on about that afterwards. Basically you have all this power and your using it the wrong way and you should be a god, etc

I think you are filling in a lot of blanks there from what is actually said by Brian.

The context of the initial statement is that Sasquatch had all the power of the Hulk but until now never actually used it.

Seeing as the Hulk doesn't go around killing people it doesn't seem very plausible that this is the key factor, and it is certainly not stated as such.

Even before banners dad took over banner said they were equals issue prior.

Banner never states that they are equals. He states that Walter's gamma signature is the same as his own, which makes sense given that Walter was explicitly attempting to replicate what happened to Banner. There is never a comment one way or the other on power levels. Walter notes that the original theory was that he would be an effective counter to Hulk as he was stronger than pre-transformation Bruce, but that was just a theory (and didn't take into account the psychological aspect of Banner's power). Walter actually refers to himself as "half-a-Hulk" at the beginning of the issue.


Cheers.

[-K-M-]

Except it is quite clearly stated by Brian that this *is* something new. The context of that statement makes it clear that Sasquatch never utilised his power fully until now.

Something new does not mean more powerful. Elder God > Brian Banner. Not really a debate there. Hulk didn't even know there was a difference until he saw Brian Banner in the reflection. Thought maybe it was Tanaraq, Mephisto, or possibly something worse inside but he was addressing the personality not the power difference.

I disagree, he was using symbolism that he wasn't using his power properly outlined more below (or as below if you will)

I'm not so sure. The first time he stabs him especially it looks like he just reaches out and his hand goes right into Hulk's chest. Hulk doesn't even bleed from it.

Not much different when wolverines claws cut Hulk. He can heal from it without showing blood. buuuuuut in the panel of the claws going in blood is flying out from the wound and sas is pushing him down due to the motion lines so would make sense would jet out (Above hulks head and below sas' hand...another above and below reference ). When hulk pulls sasquatch hand out of his chest you can see blood shoot out again. Other claw attacks clearly showed blood too.

FWIW, Hulk seemingly overpowers Sasquatch in the grappling in that scene arm vs arm (this is before Hulk realises he is Brian and collapses mentally).

wasn't arm vs arm. Hulk pulled out the hand that was digging into hulks chest. The angle favors Hulk there and is much easier to grab sasquatch by the wrist and move his hand then not.

Yep, but then again Brian wasn't really fighting then. He wanted to talk. Even after Hulk was wailing on him he just was smiling like nothing happened. Giving clues to who he really was.Even when hulk was on the ground scared he just casually walked up to him and stabbed him in the gut. More to add insult to injury. I was most impressed by the damage soak on sasquatch.

I think you are filling in a lot of blanks there from what is actually said by Brian.

The context of the initial statement is that Sasquatch had all the power of the Hulk but until now never actually used it.

Seeing as the Hulk doesn't go around killing people it doesn't seem very plausible that this is the key factor, and it is certainly not stated as such.

Not at all, the whole speech is "every light casts a shadow. In every mirror...there is a reflection. As above..so below. take a good look my special boy. You'll see a darker shadow then yours. Gamma made Langkowski your equal. He just didn't use it, that's all. Do you? Do you understand? what needs to be done? I smell the sick and the weak! I smell the children! how many? How many do I have to--"

It's a continuation to what he was saying about walter wasn't using it properly and be the darker reflection (so below part). He wanted to be the darker shadow and kill people (since in Brian’s mind banner is a murderer). Remember how Hulk said earlier Walter didn't have it in him to kill? While Brian always felt bruce was a true monster. He was going to take it further. So if he is a murderer, his reflection (hulk) is just as bad. Even in the past Walter had dynamic strength and as mentioned could pull more power from Tanaraq. He even can become Tanaraq, so I highly doubt Brian can tap more into Tanaraq's body then Tanaraq himself. That literally would make zero sense. Also how would Brian know that exactly? Did he absorb walters memories and thoughts? More then likely he was directly referring to Walters lack of capacity to kill and not a true mirror of Brians version of Banner. Since you know....Banner killed his dad 

Hulk doesn't, Ewing has made Hulk go out of the way for him not to do that. Buuuuut as mentioned Brian always felt banner was a true monster. In the story they kept mentioning walter and bruce are the same, same energy, same background, etc. ie. mirror of each other. So again if he is a murderer, his reflection is just as bad. With all the killing Brian actually yells at the reporter "remember all this...is the monsters fault". So yeah killing people in Brians mind is a reflection of Hulk.  Hulk even comments earlier Walter doesn't have it in him to kill, while now Brian does. So Brian is  using his true capabilities ie kill which is what Brian even directly was referring to in the quote above

Banner never states that they are equals. He states that Walter's gamma signature is the same as his own, which makes sense given that Walter was explicitly attempting to replicate what happened to Banner. There is never a comment one way or the other on power levels. Walter notes that the original theory was that he would be an effective counter to Hulk as he was stronger than pre-transformation Bruce, but that was just a theory (and didn't take into account the psychological aspect of Banner's power). Walter actually refers to himself as "half-a-Hulk" at the beginning of the issue.

Again symbolism and metaphor.

Indeed Walter theorized that "I was a jock, remember? I worked out. I was twice as strong as bruce easily. So, the thinking went, my Hulk could counter his-create a deterrent for Canada. For the World..."

However, Ewing was going for a copy of Bruce which coincides with what Banner said "but the gamma-affected we have a very unique signatures and walter's is just like mine", later he also says....."walter...he wanted to turn himself into a second Hulk. You see? His gamma signature is just like mine. Exactly like mine and now the suns gone down. Its night. and the night is his time" Clearly Ewing was portraying walter was a copy and mirror of Banner and the Hulk. As above, so below. Even had him become Immortal Sasquatch

Because walter is half magic and half gamma. wasn't meant as an insult to himself or talking about overall power. But interesting you will take that as fact, but dismiss walters other comments. hmmmm....

Everything I say is with respect of course. Always like a civil discussion

[The Captain]

Meanwhile.......JUGGERDUCK!

[Rage.Of.Olympus]

Sasquatch did a lot better than I thought, but Hulk was clearly winning and had him straight out overpowered with a one-hand choke before he started going crazy.

The main damage Sasquatch did was with his claws (In the eyes, in the guts etc.), which is understandable, but Hulk was dominating the fist fight. The Hulk-punch he caught was the only time I'd argue he looked equal with no huge asterisks like Hulk being a little scared child, but even then, that was during a line of questioning.

[-K-M-]

Yeah that’s how I saw it too. But banners dad at the start didn’t seem to really want to fight but to talk. He took those punches with little effect and was smiling. the damage soak I felt was the most impressive thing

Sas catching the punch from an enraged hulk (who may have slide back into savage mode???) was impressive too..even after all those hits. Overall did far better then I expected but not going to kid myself....Hulk > Sasquatch more often then not. But that sure was a strong finish

[Animalia]

I did like this, asidethe fight I mean.
While Hulk would have won this, it wasnt one sided at all, any other top tier(with no healing factor) would find these claws pretty nasty if not deadly.

[Liam Gallaghers Unibrow]

Something new does not mean more powerful.

In the context of this statement though Brian is referencing power though so I think you are far too quick to disregard it as a possibility. Comparing him to Tanaraq is a red herring, Brian is commenting on Walter not being able to use the full power he theoretically has access to.

Not much different when wolverines claws cut Hulk. He can heal from it without showing blood. buuuuuut in the panel of the claws going in blood is flying out from the wound and sas is pushing him down due to the motion lines so would make sense would jet out (Above hulks head and below sas' hand...another above and below reference ). When hulk pulls sasquatch hand out of his chest you can see blood shoot out again. Other claw attacks clearly showed blood too. 

Actually I think you can count on one hand the number of times that Logan has actually stabbed Hulk straight up like that (off the top of my head it's really only the Fixit fight and that weird one a few years ago where he put all six claws straight through Hulk's brain).

The blood in the air during the first fingers in chest scene isn't Hulk's, it's coming from Sasquatch's mouth (which was bleeding from the opening exchange). The blood is coloured red; Hulk's blood is green throughout the issue. Agreed that Hulk does clearly bleed from later claw attacks.

I'd also like to address the strawman you made earlier (and then repeated on KMC as if it was something I had actually said myself) that the claws were akin to kryptonite and Hulk was uniquely weak to them. That's not what I argued. I do think that it is pretty reasonable to think that something more was going on other than just Sasquatch being really strong so the claws cutting easily, given Brian drawing explicit attention to how it's not normal for Hulk to be hurt like this. The bottom line is Sasquatch was victim of a supernatural spiritual possession, so there's plenty of room for strange things happening (Hulk being sliced open more easily than he might otherwise be for example).

Not at all, the whole speech is "every light casts a shadow. In every mirror...there is a reflection. As above..so below. take a good look my special boy. You'll see a darker shadow then yours. Gamma made Langkowski your equal. He just didn't use it, that's all. Do you? Do you understand? what needs to be done? I smell the sick and the weak! I smell the children! how many? How many do I have to--"

It's a continuation to what he was saying about walter wasn't using it properly and be the darker reflection (so below part). He wanted to be the darker shadow and kill people (since in Brian’s mind banner is a murderer). Remember how Hulk said earlier Walter didn't have it in him to kill? While Brian always felt bruce was a true monster. He was going to take it further. So if he is a murderer, his reflection (hulk) is just as bad. Even in the past Walter had dynamic strength and as mentioned could pull more power from Tanaraq. He even can become Tanaraq, so I highly doubt Brian can tap more into Tanaraq's body then Tanaraq himself. That literally would make zero sense. Also how would Brian know that exactly? Did he absorb walters memories and thoughts? More then likely he was directly referring to Walters lack of capacity to kill and not a true mirror of Brians version of Banner. Since you know....Banner killed his dad 

Hulk doesn't, Ewing has made Hulk go out of the way for him not to do that. Buuuuut as mentioned Brian always felt banner was a true monster. In the story they kept mentioning walter and bruce are the same, same energy, same background, etc. ie. mirror of each other. So again if he is a murderer, his reflection is just as bad. With all the killing Brian actually yells at the reporter "remember all this...is the monsters fault". So yeah killing people in Brians mind is a reflection of Hulk.  Hulk even comments earlier Walter doesn't have it in him to kill, while now Brian does. So Brian is  using his true capabilities ie kill which is what Brian even directly was referring to in the quote above

The fact that part of that speech actually questions whether Hulk knows "what needs to be done" makes it pretty clear that this isn't the only thing that is being referenced. Again, the Tanaraq thing is a red herring because the comment refers to Walter, not Tanaraq.

And for the record, I don't actually think that speech is Brian talking at all. Immediately before that Brian's control seems to slip and he suggests there is something grander behind the possession and even asks for help. Hulk questions what it is ("What does? Tell me! What's behind you?"), which is when whatever is in control of Sasquatch gains the advantage and starts the speech about dark mirrors etc. We'll have to wait for subsequent issues on this point but I suspect there is something bigger and nastier pulling the strings of Brian and that is who we are seeing in that exchange.

Again symbolism and metaphor.

Indeed Walter theorized that "I was a jock, remember? I worked out. I was twice as strong as bruce easily. So, the thinking went, my Hulk could counter his-create a deterrent for Canada. For the World..."

However, Ewing was going for a copy of Bruce which coincides with what Banner said "but the gamma-affected we have a very unique signatures and walter's is just like mine", later he also says....."walter...he wanted to turn himself into a second Hulk. You see? His gamma signature is just like mine. Exactly like mine and now the suns gone down. Its night. and the night is his time" Clearly Ewing was portraying walter was a copy and mirror of Banner and the Hulk. As above, so below. Even had him become Immortal Sasquatch

I'm aware of what was said. I referenced all of these comments.

None of them state or suggest that Hulk and Sasquatch had equal power levels; just a replicated origin.

Because walter is half magic and half gamma. wasn't meant as an insult to himself or talking about overall power.

Let's be clear here - you've just completely made that interpretation of that comment up.

But interesting you will take that as fact, but dismiss walters other comments. hmmmm....

I didn't take it as a fact. I actually stated quite clearly that "There is never a comment one way or the other on power levels". Which is absolutely true. I just presented it as part of the total picture from that issue.

And given the way you just hand-waved away the comment from Walter that doesn't support your favoured position, you should be careful about casting aspersions. People in glass houses and all that.

Everything I say is with respect of course. Always like a civil discussion

Do you even Herochat bro?!




Cheers.

[Strange]

I think Liam is pretty on the spot with this one. Entertaining brawl overall doh.

[-K-M-]

In the context of this statement though Brian is referencing power though so I think you are far too quick to disregard it as a possibility. Comparing him to Tanaraq is a red herring, Brian is commenting on Walter not being able to use the full power he theoretically has access to.

I don't take it Brian was referring to power as mentioned with the symbolism in my other post

No not meant as a red herring, just that is what is established history of Sasquatch. To me it literally would not make any sense if true. Separate discussion point for discussion sake do you think he absorbed Walter's memories or more just looking through the green door?

Actually I think you can count on one hand the number of times that Logan has actually stabbed Hulk straight up like that (off the top of my head it's really only the Fixit fight and that weird one a few years ago where he put all six claws straight through Hulk's brain).

The blood in the air during the first fingers in chest scene isn't Hulk's, it's coming from Sasquatch's mouth (which was bleeding from the opening exchange). The blood is coloured red; Hulk's blood is green throughout the issue. Agreed that Hulk does clearly bleed from later claw attacks.

I'd also like to address the strawman you made earlier (and then repeated on KMC as if it was something I had actually said myself) that the claws were akin to kryptonite and Hulk was uniquely weak to them. That's not what I argued. I do think that it is pretty reasonable to think that something more was going on other than just Sasquatch being really strong so the claws cutting easily, given Brian drawing explicit attention to how it's not normal for Hulk to be hurt like this. The bottom line is Sasquatch was victim of a supernatural spiritual possession, so there's plenty of room for strange things happening (Hulk being sliced open more easily than he might otherwise be for example).

haha that's funny, sorry about that. I'm partially color blind (deuton) with different shades of red, green and blue and that actually looks green to me even now. So 100% my mistake

Fair enough. I personally don't, but again hey maybe you will be right and will get additional context in the upcoming issues. As I mentioned always open for a civil discussion. Supernatural spiritual possession is a common thing for poor Walter.

The fact that part of that speech actually questions whether Hulk knows "what needs to be done" makes it pretty clear that this isn't the only thing that is being referenced. Again, the Tanaraq thing is a red herring because the comment refers to Walter, not Tanaraq.

And for the record, I don't actually think that speech is Brian talking at all. Immediately before that Brian's control seems to slip and he suggests there is something grander behind the possession and even asks for help. Hulk questions what it is ("What does? Tell me! What's behind you?"), which is when whatever is in control of Sasquatch gains the advantage and starts the speech about dark mirrors etc. We'll have to wait for subsequent issues on this point but I suspect there is something bigger and nastier pulling the strings of Brian and that is who we are seeing in that exchange.

Maybe or maybe not, but he goes right into talking about killing and then kills the security guard. Personally my interruption is different, but again respect your opinion and by no way discrediting. You like Hulk, I like Sasquatch but I think we are pretty fair with them. 

Walter and Tanaraq go hand in hand. But since Tanaraq is dead at this point, perhaps he really couldn't tap into his full power? but before he had access to elder god powers and draw more strength wether he wanted to or not. This is a side note for discussion purposes since Immortal Hulk's pupils were changing and appearing to go savage do you think that could have played a factor in the punch catch. As personally I would put Immortal above standard Savage Hulk, would you?

Yeah very likely was the one below all talking, we shall see. and I agree we are getting a head of myself. Just having a civil debate from what is presented. Not saying my way is fact and the only way as clearly open to interpretation.

None of them state or suggest that Hulk and Sasquatch had equal power levels; just a replicated origin.

Proving context for the symbolism what Ewing was going for ie. mirror of the Hulk. Showing their history together, showing their orgins, showing how they got their powers and banner commenting his energy signature which I would consider power. But can just be a frequency (so either or) but then they made him Immortal Sasquatch too so even gave him the same power. They were clearly hammering across the duality between the two. Just to be clear Hulk is more powerful, and give him the nod more often then not but the story was conveying the dual relationship between the two.

Let's be clear here - you've just completely made that interpretation of that comment up.

Not at all this is his legit origin. Where does "half a hulk" refer to half of hulk's power then?

I didn't take it as a fact. I actually stated quite clearly that "There is never a comment one way or the other on power levels". Which is absolutely true. I just presented it as part of the total picture from that issue.

And given the way you just hand-waved away the comment from Walter that doesn't support your favoured position, you should be careful about casting aspersions. People in glass houses and all that.

I apologize that was tongue in cheek comment, hence the smilie face at the end. Wasnt meant to be taken like that. Wasnt saying either or was a fact, but based on the sybolism Ewing was clearly going for a mirror and copy of Hulk with Sasquatch. Nothing is clearly fact or we wouldnt be discussing this

Also to be clear agsin Hulk > Sasquatch.

Do you even Herochat bro?!

I shall drop some F bombs next time

but I think we should agree to disagree as perhaps the next issue we will learn more with Brian now in the Hulk. I think "Sasquatch" power will return and is not completly gone, but dont think Walter will get it.

[Liam Gallaghers Unibrow]

Apologies for the delayed response, had a hectic few days.

No need to apologise, I didn't take anything personally and apologise if I came across overly defensive. There's enough weirdness in the issue that there's a lot open to interpretation so I don't have any problems respectfully agreeing to disagree on a few things, and I think we've reached the point where continuing to go through blow-by-blow isn't overly productive so I won't go through each point in the post.


Having re-read the issue a few times now, my interpretation of the fight is essentially that it breaks down into four phases.

1) Hulk vs Brian Banner-controlled Sasquatch; Hulk unaware it is Brian
This part is fairly self-explanatory. Hulk seems to have the advantage initially at least.

2) Hulk vs Brian Banner-controlled Sasquatch; Hulk aware it is Brian
Again fairly self-explanatory. Hulk collapses mentally upon learning that he's facing his old man, his will to resist almost disappears and he is crawling away begging Brian to leave him alone. He's basically a scared child at this point and Brian is torturing him.

3) Hulk gets mad, smashes Brian
Hulk overcomes his fear and gets angry - very angry - starting with kicking Sasquatch away as he is clawing his guts. For a couple of pages Hulk goes full spaz, to the point of reverting to a more savage speech pattern (I think it's non-sensical to suggest that the Hulk would be weaker because he is reverting to the Savage Hulk... he's the Hulk, and he's getting madder, so there's every reason to think he's getting stronger at this point). Hulk again gains a clear advantage here, and hits Sasquatch hard enough to knock some lucidity into Brian, who starts talking like he has lost the will to fight. This is the point that Brian starts talking about there being something worse responsible for his return, something that "wears our souls like masks on a stage", and he even asks Hulk to help him. Hulk demands answers as to what this being is, at which point...

4) Hulk vs The One Below All
...whatever it is that has Brian Banner scared assumes direct control over Sasquatch. The immediate result is the punch-catch and another dramatic shift in the momentum of the fight (Hulk getting his eyes gouged out and Sasquatch gaining a clear advantage). IMHO it is no longer Brian talking from the punch catch onwards, it's The One Below All. I think this is the best explanation for the sudden shift in speech after Brian's plea for help, and the corresponding turn in the way the fight is going.


So essentially the way I see it is that Hulk - once he gets seriously pissed - is on the verge of winning against Brian-controlled Sasquatch, but is then on the verge of losing against whatever is pulling Brian's strings, the Big Bad of the story, when whatever it is assumes direct control of Sasquatch.

I might be completely wrong but I think it fits pretty well with the momentum shifts during the fight, and no doubt we will learn more in the next couple of issues with Hulk now carrying Brian's persona inside him (which is a nice recalling of the PAD run circa Heroes Reborn/Return when Hulk was haunted by Brian's ghost).


Cheers.

[-K-M-]

Wonders of the internet. We both were right Liam

Rather large retcon as his powers always came from Tanaraq.



So Hulk = Sasquatch but as you said Walter doesn’t have the right mindset generally. He can “hulk” out as has done so and tanaraq only made him hairy. So when he did hulk out that was actually his gamma origins not mystical. Big difference from past continuity but he did say in an interview he was going to do that. Means the same energy comments from the previous issue did mean equal in power/abilities.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/A_Flight2/AlphaFlight23-17.jpg

But Hulk and Sasquatch under Ewing and in that fight were supposed to be equals.I thought Brian said walter wasn’t using his powers right I thought he was referring to killing as his speech let into that and then murdered the guard but meant tap into his powers which still doesn’t make much sense. So when he said he was ignoring old continuity he meant it. Oh well. Still a good story