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Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe

Abhilegend

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #135 on: March 12, 2018, 11:12:21 PM »
She had him on her mercy. They were not lovers at that point. /


You're leaving out major context there, aren't you?

DD was there for what he thought was a friendly meeting, and all of a sudden she ambushes him with genuine intent to kill because (a) she no longer remembers that DD = Matt Murdock, and (b) she thought he did something to her daughter. She softened him up with a one sided beating for several pages before the scans you posted, and in the pages afterward he decides to drop his guard altogether just to get her to listen to reason.

Elektra in murderous "mama bear" mode vs a surprised, reluctant DD isn't a bad showing at all, the way it went down. She could do the same to any A-lister under similar circumstances.
Is that so? Recently a wounded Black Widow stalemated Elektra.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111183975/4968468-7786024587-26914.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111183975/4968513-6727912845-26914.jpg

And Daredevil wasn't just punching bag for Elektra either. He fought back, she kicked his ass.


She also looked even ish to Iron Fist in skills.



"Recently"? That BW fight was 8 years ago.

That's beside the fact that Elektra wasn't fighting BW with anywhere near the same ferocity and murderous intent she did DD, who she thought harmed her daughter.


That's recent by this board's standards.

And Widow was wounded and still stalemated Elektra.
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And DD was a punching bag for Elektra before the scans you posted. She literally beat him down while he was just trying to figure out what was going on, and then even after he recovered he was clearly reluctant and eventually stopped fighting altogether.


She was holding back there otherwise she would've killed him in just one kick.

Way to go Matty.
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You left out a lot of context.
Right.



Kind of a week retort, given what you left out. I mean, you made sure to clear up that they weren't lovers, but left out that she didn't know DD was Matt Murdock and that she was literally trying to kill him for harming their daughter. In addition to the fight being an ambush, the one sided beatdown before your scans, etc.


Yes and you leaving out the fact that Elektra was holding back too otherwise she would've killed him in one kick.

Did you think the writer would've included that thinking "No, Daredevil is more skilled than Elektra".
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But that's par for the course, here. That Shang Chi example? Where your comparison involves the villain trying to fight Shang hth while fighting DD with all of his gear (and where Shang gets taken out for almost 4 pages while DD and Elektra take care of business)?


You mean where Shang beats Ghostmaker so badly that he forgets about honor and tried to use his tech but found that even that could not allow him to beat Shang and he literally has to use a suicide move to get away.

Or Ghostmaker beats Matt down in a special suit made by Reed Richards?

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Or the Ox example, which I'm assuming is from 50 years ago?


Funny how that works when it works for Daredevil but not vice versa.

But I think getting beat down by Matador, Kraven or Ka Zar has no bearing on Daredevil skills.

Only taskmaster and Captain America count.



(1) Elektra held back at the very last second, when she realized Matt had completely left himself at her mercy. Before that she was trying to murder him, and this is all explicit in the text.

Just admit you were being a bit dishonest, man. Most posters have their weak moments.


And Daredevil flat out says she will kill him unless he diffuses the situation somehow.

Seems pretty clear to me that Elektra was more skilled than Daredevil.
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(2) Again, Ghostmaker was fighting Shang strictly hand to hand, while he beat DD using electricity and his gear (and was on the losing end before that). When Shang showed up again for round 2 against a Ghostmaker willing to use weapons, he kinda embarrassingly gets taken out in one panel, while DD and Elektra fought on.


Again, Ghostmaker tried to use his tech too but realized he was no match for Shang even then.

Shang was surprised by Ghostmaker who used Elektra sais to take him out. Nothing like straight up beating he gave to Daredevil.

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(3) "Designed by Reed Richards"--lol. It was a bulletproof suit, not anything that made him Iron Man. Also, the same writer pointed out that the suit made him a sloppier fighter.


Right bulletproof suits are such a hindrance.
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(4) Matador, Kraven, and Ka-Zar--wow, a list of Silver Age examples with the most recent one being 40 years old, back when DD was just a guy who was completely self-trained in a boxing gym (and Ka-Zar and Kraven being formidible A-listers in their own right).


Right, do you want me to list modern examples as well?

As we understand the old scenes don't work, eh?
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Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Talk about excuses.

Abhilegend

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #136 on: March 12, 2018, 11:16:19 PM »
Abhi: "Daredevil has been shown to be inferior to Wolverine."

Aside from the fact that there'd be no shame in being inferior to Wolverine, who's proven time and again that he's one of the most formidible A-listers when he doesn't lazily rely on his healing factor, let's examine the one example you're hanging your claim on:





Wow, Wolverine managed to get DD in a full nelson for a single panel (a move DD and plenty of other MAs have gotten out of before). That's your argument.


Did Daredevil do that there after suckerpunching Logan?

Logan incapacitated Daredevil in two pages and talked him down.
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As if that outweighs DD stalemating a Wolverine who was backed by an army of ninjas for an entire issue during Enemy of the State, or this:




In EOTS Daredevil was just a bait for Elektra.

Wow, Ennis? Talk about bottom of the barrel bro.
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Now, I would never use the above to argue that DD should ever beat Wolverine that easily, but pretending that Wolverine getting DD in a full nelson for one panel establishes that he's better than DD, given their other encounters?

C'mon.
In that scenario, yes it did. Matt suckerpunched Logan who outskilled him and incapacitated him.

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #137 on: March 13, 2018, 12:39:01 AM »
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And Daredevil flat out says she will kill him unless he diffuses the situation somehow.
 

Yes, she'd already beaten him pretty badly with her ambush, and she wasn't going to stop until he was dead. That's a far cry from how you tried to paint the scene and everything you omitted.


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Again, Ghostmaker tried to use his tech too but realized he was no match for Shang even then.
 

He realized he was no match for Shang with weapons by incapacitating him for 4 pages?

He admitted Shang was superior strictly hand to hand, and then moves on to weapons, after which

(1) Shang barely survives a bomb blast

(2) Shang gets taken out by a thrown blade for 4 pages while DD and Elektra pick up the slack


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Shang was surprised by Ghostmaker who used Elektra sais to take him out.

Surprised? Shang called Ghostmaker out, and Ghostmaker responded by throwing a blade at him. This takes Shang out for 4 pages.

Ghostmaker also "surprised" DD with electrified weapons, something far more formidible and unexpected than throwing a knife at someone.


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Nothing like straight up beating he gave to Daredevil. 

This is just trolly nonsense. Try harder.


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Right bulletproof suits are such a hindrance.

Who said that? You're the one who was laughably emphasizing "designed by Reed Richards", as if 90% of even the most mundane Marvel costumes aren't touched by his hand.

It was a bulletproof suit. That's it. It was about 15% as sophisticated as the high tech armored costumes the Bat Family has regularly worn for the past 2 decades, yet somehow I don't think you'd emphasize those advantages in their cases to derride their skills.




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Right, do you want me to list modern examples as well? 

I'm sure you're willing to misrepresent the maybe dozen or so lowest showings for a character that has appearances past the thousand mark, just like we can for his counterparts.

It'll still be transparent, but at least it won't be as laughable as you combing through volume 1 of the Stan Lee Daredevil omnibus for 50 year old material.


As we understand the old scenes don't work, eh?

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Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel. 

Talk about excuses.

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #138 on: March 13, 2018, 12:51:09 AM »
Abhi: "Daredevil has been shown to be inferior to Wolverine."

Aside from the fact that there'd be no shame in being inferior to Wolverine, who's proven time and again that he's one of the most formidible A-listers when he doesn't lazily rely on his healing factor, let's examine the one example you're hanging your claim on:





Wow, Wolverine managed to get DD in a full nelson for a single panel (a move DD and plenty of other MAs have gotten out of before). That's your argument.


Did Daredevil do that there after suckerpunching Logan?

Logan incapacitated Daredevil in two pages and talked him down.
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As if that outweighs DD stalemating a Wolverine who was backed by an army of ninjas for an entire issue during Enemy of the State, or this:




In EOTS Daredevil was just a bait for Elektra.

Wow, Ennis? Talk about bottom of the barrel bro.
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Now, I would never use the above to argue that DD should ever beat Wolverine that easily, but pretending that Wolverine getting DD in a full nelson for one panel establishes that he's better than DD, given their other encounters?

C'mon.
In that scenario, yes it did. Matt suckerpunched Logan who outskilled him and incapacitated him.



(1) You should look up what "incapacited" means--a one panel full nelson does not mean DD couldn't continue fighting. Logan didn't "win", and reasoned with him.

(2) Wolverine was trying to kill DD in EotS--he says so in his internal monologue. DD was also bait. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

What's funny is you knew about all 3 DD/Wolverine encounters, but purposely chose to dishonestly blow up the most inconsequential and least definitive of the three as *the* definitive statement on their encounters. Based on a panel.

Abhilegend

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #139 on: March 13, 2018, 01:13:20 AM »
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And Daredevil flat out says she will kill him unless he diffuses the situation somehow.


Yes, she'd already beaten him pretty badly with her ambush, and she wasn't going to stop until he was dead. That's a far cry from how you tried to paint the scene and everything you omitted.


He didn't cite him being hurt or anything for that reaction. He just said her being angry could cause her to kill him and he only had the option to surrender to diffuse it.

If he had option of subduing her, he could've done that instead of surrendering.
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Again, Ghostmaker tried to use his tech too but realized he was no match for Shang even then.


He realized he was no match for Shang with weapons by incapacitating him for 4 pages?


That's what he said regarding his chances against Shang with his tech.
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He admitted Shang was superior strictly hand to hand, and then moves on to weapons, after which

(1) Shang barely survives a bomb blast

(2) Shang gets taken out by a thrown blade for 4 pages while DD and Elektra pick up the slack


Hey, surviving bombs is totally a skill showing.

And surprising Shang who just had a bomb exploded in his face is also such a skill showing.

Remind me how Daredevil kicked his ass in h2h, don't you.
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Shang was surprised by Ghostmaker who used Elektra sais to take him out.

Surprised? Shang called Ghostmaker out, and Ghostmaker responded by throwing a blade at him. This takes Shang out for 4 pages.


Yes, since Ghostmaker doesn't use sais.

But hey, Bullseye killed Elektra using sais. Must mean Elektra is B level.
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Ghostmaker also "surprised" DD with electrified weapons, something far more formidible and unexpected than throwing a knife at someone.


Did he also use bombs against poor Matty?
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Nothing like straight up beating he gave to Daredevil.

This is just trolly nonsense. Try harder.


So Daredevil wasn't beaten by Ghostmaker?
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Right bulletproof suits are such a hindrance.

Who said that? You're the one who was laughably emphasizing "designed by Reed Richards", as if 90% of even the most mundane Marvel costumes aren't touched by his hand.


You said that.

He doesn't designs bulletproof costumes for everyone though.
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It was a bulletproof suit. That's it. It was about 15% as sophisticated as the high tech armored costumes the Bat Family has regularly worn for the past 2 decades, yet somehow I don't think you'd emphasize those advantages in their cases to derride their skills.


Those aren't usually bulletproof though.
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Right, do you want me to list modern examples as well?

I'm sure you're willing to misrepresent the maybe dozen or so lowest showings for a character that has appearances past the thousand mark, just like we can for his counterparts.


It's funny how your mind instantly went to lowest showings.

It's not like you use his high showings to set the benchmark him, do you?
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It'll still be transparent, but at least it won't be as laughable as you combing through volume 1 of the Stan Lee Daredevil omnibus for 50 year old material.


Still not as transparent as your excuses though.

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #140 on: March 13, 2018, 01:44:29 AM »
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He didn't cite him being hurt or anything for that reaction. He just said her being angry could cause her to kill him and he only had the option to surrender to diffuse it. 

If he had option of subduing her, he could've done that instead of surrendering.

"The writer and artist spent pages showing DD get a one sided beatdown, bleeding all over the place with moments he couldn't even stand, but Matt didn't mention it in the dialogue, bro."

Sure, bro.


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That's what he said regarding his chances against Shang with his tech.


He *specifically* says "hand to hand".



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And surprising Shang who just had a bomb exploded in his face is also such a skill showing. 

Now you're just making stuff up. Shang didn't "just" have a bomb blow up "in his face". He leaped far from a blast he escaped.

It's really weird to see a poster lie about stuff like this in 2018, when scans are so freely available.


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Remind me how Daredevil kicked his ass in h2h, don't you.


He certainly did better than Shang, who could do nothing but lie on his butt for 4 pages.


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Shang was surprised by Ghostmaker who used Elektra sais to take him out.


This has to be the most laughable of all your arguments so far.

So Shang didn't expect Ghostmaker, a guy with a bunch of bladed weapons on his person, both visible and hidden, to throw a blade at him?

Or, you're saying the fact that it was a sai (instead of another kind of blade) was so shocking a surprise, that he could be excused for not defending himself?

Right.


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Did he also use bombs against poor Matty?

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Nothing like straight up beating he gave to Daredevil.


"Straight up beating", huh? I guess it's good that you're being this transparently dishonest before I post the scans.


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So Daredevil wasn't beaten by Ghostmaker?


Let's say he was beaten less definitively than Shang Chi in the same scene, who was out of action for almost the entire group fight.

Something else you'd left out, of course.

Abhilegend

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #141 on: March 13, 2018, 11:06:16 AM »
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He didn't cite him being hurt or anything for that reaction. He just said her being angry could cause her to kill him and he only had the option to surrender to diffuse it.

If he had option of subduing her, he could've done that instead of surrendering.

"The writer and artist spent pages showing DD get a one sided beatdown, bleeding all over the place with moments he couldn't even stand, but Matt didn't mention it in the dialogue, bro."

Sure, bro.


That's not what DD attributes to Elektra being able to kill him.
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That's what he said regarding his chances against Shang with his tech.


He *specifically* says "hand to hand".


Did you actually read the story? Ghostmaker was taking on Elektra and Daredevil at once and never admitted that he couldn't take both at once.

Also he only surrendered his weapons before fighting Shang and had the same armor against Daredevil.
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And surprising Shang who just had a bomb exploded in his face is also such a skill showing.

Now you're just making stuff up. Shang didn't "just" have a bomb blow up "in his face". He leaped far from a blast he escaped.


Elektra explicitly states that he is in no shape to take her. He also had broken ribs when Elektra distracted him.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Uv6HceS09XddMi5-cBmdcAmTAojuSC0raEKqcUpdpVoz5jL839dJlW666HcHmsIAvujFwpICLO2Z=s1600

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It's really weird to see a poster lie about stuff like this in 2018, when scans are so freely available.


That's what I feel about you too.
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Remind me how Daredevil kicked his ass in h2h, don't you.


He certainly did better than Shang, who could do nothing but lie on his butt for 4 pages.


He did better than Shang? Who did Ghostmaker admit superior to himself and admitted he couldn't take?

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Shang was surprised by Ghostmaker who used Elektra sais to take him out.


This has to be the most laughable of all your arguments so far.

So Shang didn't expect Ghostmaker, a guy with a bunch of bladed weapons on his person, both visible and hidden, to throw a blade at him?


Apparently, that's what the writer thought. Otherwise he wouldn't have Ghostmaker straight up admit that he has no chance against Shang while dual wielding knives.

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Or, you're saying the fact that it was a sai (instead of another kind of blade) was so shocking a surprise, that he could be excused for not defending himself?

Right.


Ghostmaker admitted that he couldn't take Shang while he had two knives.

Why would that be when he could've just stab Shang with those, eh?
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Did he also use bombs against poor Matty?

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Nothing like straight up beating he gave to Daredevil.


"Straight up beating", huh? I guess it's good that you're being this transparently dishonest before I post the scans.


I'm curious as to why you haven't done it already.
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So Daredevil wasn't beaten by Ghostmaker?


Let's say he was beaten less definitively than Shang Chi in the same scene, who was out of action for almost the entire group fight.

Something else you'd left out, of course.
He was already injured with two broken ribs, blasted by a bomb and stabbed by a sai. Daredevil was beaten by far less.

Abhilegend

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #142 on: March 13, 2018, 11:20:46 AM »
Anyway, the full scans.



Fire away with misrepresentations and excuses Q.

Abhilegend

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #143 on: March 13, 2018, 11:21:47 AM »
The scans are in wrong order somehow.

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #144 on: March 13, 2018, 01:21:10 PM »
Quote from: Abhilegend
Fire away with misrepresentations and excuses Q.


I guess you bought some time by posting the scans out of order before I did, but I'm happy to let them refute all the nonsense you've posted over the last few pages.

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #145 on: March 13, 2018, 01:44:23 PM »
So, just to sum up Abhi's logic:

Ghostmaker decides to fight Shang Chi without weapons, and admits Shang is his superior *hand to hand*. When he decides to use a weapon at the end, Shang almost dies and is already pretty beat up.

Daredevil fights a Ghostmaker who is using his weapons, and ends up being weakened from a *shock blast* by blocking electrified weapons, (before which he was beating Ghostmaker around). 

--Abhi previously described this as a one sided beatdown that proved hand to hand superiority. Look for yourselves.

Shang tries to intervene, but Ghostmaker finishes him off with another weapon, and he's out of the picture for the rest of the fight.

...this is what's supposed to prove that Shang is superior to DD.

Abhilegend

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #146 on: March 13, 2018, 11:01:30 PM »
Quote from: Abhilegend
Fire away with misrepresentations and excuses Q.


I guess you bought some time by posting the scans out of order before I did, but I'm happy to let them refute all the nonsense you've posted over the last few pages.
Ah the old "no you" argument.

Good one q.

Abhilegend

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #147 on: March 13, 2018, 11:07:26 PM »
So, just to sum up Abhi's logic:

Ghostmaker decides to fight Shang Chi without weapons, and admits Shang is his superior *hand to hand*. When he decides to use a weapon at the end, Shang almost dies and is already pretty beat up.


So Ghostmaker isn't using two knives here?

https://postimg.org/image/x5s6ozl63/
https://postimg.org/image/zacjq328b/

Ghostmaker only tagged Shang after he was in a bad shape after a bomb exploded in his face.

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Daredevil fights a Ghostmaker who is using his weapons, and ends up being weakened from a *shock blast* by blocking electrified weapons, (before which he was beating Ghostmaker around). 


Ghostmaker's weapons were neutralized by DDs armor.

https://postimg.org/image/f2z3xsrwb/

If not for that Daredevil would've ended up bleeding on the floor too.
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--Abhi previously described this as a one sided beatdown that proved hand to hand superiority. Look for yourselves.


Yes, sure.

Look up how he battles Daredevil and Elektra in h2h at the same time too.
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Shang tries to intervene, but Ghostmaker finishes him off with another weapon, and he's out of the picture for the rest of the fight.


Because he was in a bad shape as stated by Elektra.

https://postimg.org/image/ffqi3zhvv/

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...this is what's supposed to prove that Shang is superior to DD.

That's why I asked you to fire away with your excuses.

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #148 on: March 13, 2018, 11:48:33 PM »
So Ghostmaker isn't using two knives here?

https://postimg.org/image/x5s6ozl63/
https://postimg.org/image/zacjq328b/

Yes, after he says "The time for honor has passed.", hence he started using weapons.

Are you actually reading the scans you're posting?


Ghostmaker only tagged Shang after he was in a bad shape after a bomb exploded in his face.


Ghostmaker is the one who injured him, genius. If Shang was so defenseless that Ghostmaker could take him out as an easy afterthought while engaging DD, then it's still his win.

Your argument is basically "Ghostmaker beating Shang doesn't count because Ghostmaker had already beat him, really."

Really deep thinking, abhi.


Ghostmaker's weapons were neutralized by DDs armor.

https://postimg.org/image/f2z3xsrwb/

If not for that Daredevil would've ended up bleeding on the floor too.


Ghostmaker's energy weapons were not neutralized by DD's costume--they clearly took him down.

And your making assumptions about whether that blow would have landed if DD were wearing the red costume. Gregory Wright is the writer that explicitly wrote that DD was fighting differently under the greater safety of the armor.


Yes, sure.

Great retort.

DD was outlanding him literally 4 to 1 before Ghostmaker relied on a shock blast. I'm sure everyone is convinced you were telling the truth about Ghostmaker's  hand to hand "beatdown" of DD now that the scans are posted.


That's why I asked you to fire away with your excuses.


Why do I need excuses? Your dishonesty or trolling (because I don't genuinely believe your reading comprehension is that bad) is pretty self-evident in this thread.

Abhilegend

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Re: Scourge's Top 50 Hand to Hand combatants in the Marvel Universe
« Reply #149 on: March 14, 2018, 02:07:07 AM »
So Ghostmaker isn't using two knives here?

https://postimg.org/image/x5s6ozl63/
https://postimg.org/image/zacjq328b/

Yes, after he says "The time for honor has passed.", hence he started using weapons.

Are you actually reading the scans you're posting?


Are you? Because even after using two knives Ghostmaker claims he can't beat Shang.

Throws a wrench in your excuse that Ghostmaker could've won any time just with a sharp object, doesn't it?
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Ghostmaker only tagged Shang after he was in a bad shape after a bomb exploded in his face.


Ghostmaker is the one who injured him, genius. If Shang was so defenseless that Ghostmaker could take him out as an easy afterthought while engaging DD, then it's still his win.


Yeah, using a bomb. I like how you disregard Daredevil being beaten because of electricity but take it as a genuine win for Ghostmaker.
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Your argument is basically "Ghostmaker beating Shang doesn't count because Ghostmaker had already beat him, really."

Really deep thinking, abhi.


No, because he couldn't beat Shang unless he was injured by a bomb.

Is blasting someone with a bomb is also a skill showing?
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Ghostmaker's weapons were neutralized by DDs armor.

https://postimg.org/image/f2z3xsrwb/

If not for that Daredevil would've ended up bleeding on the floor too.


Ghostmaker's energy weapons were not neutralized by DD's costume--they clearly took him down.


Your point? Shang had no armor and hence he was stabbed by the sai.

Ghostmaker disarmed Daredevil and Elektra simultaneously in the fight and they only won because Shang distracted him.
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And your making assumptions about whether that blow would have landed if DD were wearing the red costume. Gregory Wright is the writer that explicitly wrote that DD was fighting differently under the greater safety of the armor.


You're the one who is making Daredevil more skilled than Shang because Shang got stabbed and DD wasn't when DD only survived because he had an armor protecting him.

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Yes, sure.

Great retort.


I know right.
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DD was outlanding him literally 4 to 1 before Ghostmaker relied on a shock blast. I'm sure everyone is convinced you were telling the truth about Ghostmaker's  hand to hand "beatdown" of DD now that the scans are posted.


And later Ghostmaker was fighting both him and Elektra simultaneously and disarmed both.

Ghostmaker was surprised by the armor plating that DD had and took a few blows but then beats DD down until Elektra saves him.

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That's why I asked you to fire away with your excuses.


Why do I need excuses? Your dishonesty or trolling (because I don't genuinely believe your reading comprehension is that bad) is pretty self-evident in this thread.
This is so ironic at this point.

Is this the famous visitor q everyone raves about? Because this is just underwhelming to extreme.