Herochat

The Brexit Thread

Kang Council

  • ***
  • 585
  • +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: The Brexit Thread
« Reply #285 on: July 26, 2016, 07:02:14 PM »
What am I wrong about? I claimed that if a country doesn't like certain EU rules they can opt out. I have shown that England has done this a few times? That is 100% correct.

You claimed that Ireland was secretly forced into a second vote under the idea they will have certain privileges revoked according to the Daily Mail article. When your source was called out you instead posted articles showing that the EU wrote a new agreement for Ireland addressing the concerns of the no voters and allowing them to opt out of those stipulations under the Lisbon treaty they did not agree with. Ireland then voted again and they voted yes. A second vote under a new agreement is forcing. Thats negotiating and Ireland got what they wanted. Thats why the voted yes.


Also feel free to point at where I lied, where I cheated, and exactly what I stole since that seems to be your last ditch effort when facts fail you.

First of the source was not called out, that didn't happen he just stated that.  Secondly they still should not have had to vote twice, they voted no that should be the end of it.  The reason why they had to vote again is because the EU told them to.

NeoGreenLantern

  • ********
  • 14330
  • +59/-17
    • View Profile
Re: The Brexit Thread
« Reply #286 on: July 26, 2016, 07:12:24 PM »
So basically you're against the idea of a second vote even if one side changes the agreement to appease the other side basically changing the parameters of the original agreement. In other words.

So basically you don't understand how negotiations work. Got it.


Kang Council

  • ***
  • 585
  • +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: The Brexit Thread
« Reply #287 on: July 26, 2016, 07:29:29 PM »
So basically you're against the idea of a second vote even if one side changes the agreement to appease the other side basically changing the parameters of the original agreement. In other words.

So basically you don't understand how negotiations work. Got it.

Yea I guess the Guardian doesn't understand that either.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/dec/13/eu-ireland-lisbon-treaty

Imagine if, following the election of Barack Obama by 52.9% of American voters, the Republican party, which got just 45.7% of votes, demanded another election. Imagine if the Republicans described Obama's victory as a "triumph of ignorance" – brought about by an "unspeakable" and "ignorant" mass of people who should have been "swatted away by the forces of the establishment" – and insisted on holding a second election so that, this time, the voters could "get it right".

It wasn't a negotiation.  They were tricked.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-damage-done-by-lisbon-rerun-will-not-be-easily-fixed-26570848.html

Oh and according to the irish independent it's against their constitution to vote twice.

An event of lasting political significance has taken place with the vote on the second Lisbon Treaty referendum. Whatever the outcome, those who have voted 'No' did so having been disenfranchised. The act of doing this took place more than a year ago, when the Government -- without any guarantees at all for what they did -- broke trust with a national democratic decision, one that is enshrined in our Constitution and should have an absolute value, as referendums have had in the past.

Oh and just because the Irish Govt was involved in the fraud doesn't absolve the EU.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ukip-slams-corrupt-lisbon-vote-1.847198?via=mr
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 07:34:12 PM by Kang Council »

NeoGreenLantern

  • ********
  • 14330
  • +59/-17
    • View Profile
Re: The Brexit Thread
« Reply #288 on: July 26, 2016, 07:41:20 PM »
Yes nothing says tricked like the side changing things to fit your complaints.


I was going to leave my job because it wasn't paying enough but then they gave me a raise. TRICKED I WAS! TRIIIIIIICKED!

Also you're gonna need to quote the part of the Irish Constitution that says they can't have a second vote since the Opinion piece did a worst job of siting things then you.

NeoGreenLantern

  • ********
  • 14330
  • +59/-17
    • View Profile
Re: The Brexit Thread
« Reply #289 on: July 26, 2016, 07:43:02 PM »
Also voting on law and voting people in are two very different things. We reject laws and have them come back for votes after being altered all the time. Sometimes they pass sometimes they don't. They've tried to pass different versions of CISPA a bunch of times which keep getting rejected.

Kang Council

  • ***
  • 585
  • +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: The Brexit Thread
« Reply #290 on: July 26, 2016, 08:20:24 PM »
Yes nothing says tricked like the side changing things to fit your complaints.

No I don't think that happened but I guess if that's what you think it must be true.

I was going to leave my job because it wasn't paying enough but then they gave me a raise. TRICKED I WAS! TRIIIIIIICKED!

Lie, cheat and steal.  You can't even be bothered to address anything that was written in the paper it didn't indicate that at all.  Now you're just talking and acting like it's a fact.

Also you're gonna need to quote the part of the Irish Constitution that says they can't have a second vote since the Opinion piece did a worst job of siting things then you.

LOL you haven't even bothered to address anything that paper said.  Can you see what a hypocrite you are? Here's you complaining about the Daily Mail

When your source was called out

You don't even want to address the fact that the newspaper isn't on the debunked list or very low on it.  It might even be worth considering that it's an IRISH newspaper, you'd think it would know especially what went on in Ireland and the constitution.  But when you feel like it you can mention that the source is debunked but not now since it doesn't suit you're argument. 

If I thought you were worth the effort I might actually go and find but if I did it wouldn't make a difference because you would just make some excuse.  When you don't come out with silly stuff like trying to imply that Trump is nazi or nazi friendly, you don't get to tell me what to do.  So since this is written by a IRISH journalist in what seems to be a respected newspaper we can assume for now it's correct.  Let's put it this way we have more reason to trust him than YOU.  Got it?

You don't even have to agree with me, what I don't like is dishonesty and hypocrisy and it's not just you.

NeoGreenLantern

  • ********
  • 14330
  • +59/-17
    • View Profile
Re: The Brexit Thread
« Reply #291 on: July 26, 2016, 08:49:53 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/dec/13/eu-ireland-lisbon-treaty

Opinion piece. The person uses a false comparison. I already explain why its wrong.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-damage-done-by-lisbon-rerun-will-not-be-easily-fixed-26570848.html

Opinion piece. Says it violates the constitution but doesn't explain why.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ukip-slams-corrupt-lisbon-vote-1.847198?via=mr

Article about a guy complaining his side lost because the other side spent more money getting their point across.

And your own articles stated the EU had to compromise with Ireland to get the second vote.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/5579684/Ireland-to-hold-second-referendum-on-Lisbon-Treaty.html

Its not what I think. Its what one of your sources said happened. Since the EU has allowed for opt-out exception before and I can't find anything saying the reneged on the deal it seems like thats exactly what happened.

So keep tossing out Opinion pieces as fact. Maybe call me a liar, cheat, and thief again. Its fun watching the death of your argument.


The Shuruku Demon

  • *****
  • 1972
  • +15/-5
    • View Profile
Re: The Brexit Thread
« Reply #292 on: June 14, 2017, 01:45:18 PM »
Thought I'd update this thread, what with the fallout from the recent UK general election.


1) Despite fears after the Brexit referendum of Scotland possibly breaking away from the UK, it's now looking unlikely that that'll happen in the medium term. The Scottish National Party had been using Brexit to leverage a case for another independence referendum, however they've just lost 21 of their 56 Scottish parliamentary seats in the general election, most of which went to the strongly unionist Conservative Party. My sense is that as there's no guarantee Scotland would be admitted into the EU if they left the UK, and moreover, no guarantee that they could retain the Pound Sterling as their currency (the EU would likely want them to adopt the Euro as a condition of entry as a "new" member state), or remain out of the Schengen Area (which allows passport-free border crossings for EU citizens), most Scots would rather stick with what they know in the face of such uncertainty.


2) The so-called "hard Brexit" outcome, where the UK not only leaves the EU, but the Single Market and the Customs Union as well is now looking distinctly less likely than it was prior to the general election. The UK Prime Minister had strongly indicated that this was the direction she intended to go in, but her authority has been undermined as a result of her Conservative Party losing it's parliamentary majority in the general election. Pro-EU Remainers in both the Conservative and Labour parties are now rallying around a soft Brexit or Norway option, where the UK leaves the EU but stays in the single market (which would allow tariff-free trade to continue, but would require free movement of workers, perhaps with certain conditions). In addition, the PM is now in talks with Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party, looking to form a pact between her party and theirs which would give her an overall parliamentary majority, and the DUP favour a soft Brexit too. She'll probably hash out a deal of some kind with the DUP, but it's hard to see how she can force a hard Brexit if she does. And if she fails to get the DUP's support, her government could simply collapse, triggering another general election.


3) France recently voted in the strongly pro-EU Emmanuel Macron as it's new President, with an overwhelming parliamentary majority. He's just stated that the UK retains the option of effectively cancelling Brexit until the Article 50 EU exit process is completed (the current deadline for that is March 2019, though the EU can extend that if it wants to). At the moment, it seems very unlikely that the UK would accept this offer, due to the feeling that the democratic Brexit referendum result must be abided by. If however we get to March 2019 and no Brexit deal has been reached, it's not inconceivable that this could be revisited as a serious option. It's hard to be certain of anything right now, such is the tumult within the UK parliament as a result of the governing party unexpectedly losing their majority.

MTL76

  • ********
  • 9416
  • +1111/-11
  • "What if I know all your secrets, Your Eminence?"
    • View Profile
Re: The Brexit Thread
« Reply #293 on: June 14, 2017, 01:52:55 PM »
Soft Brexit sounds like the worst of both worlds.


Minority Shareholder, Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles (CHOAM)

The Create A Team / Power Set Combo Compendium

superlurker

  • **
  • 458
  • +10/-0
    • View Profile
Re: The Brexit Thread
« Reply #294 on: June 14, 2017, 05:20:34 PM »
Soft Brexit sounds like the worst of both worlds.

Speaking from the country that's already there, it's not that bad. At least if you don't mind having to accept the occasional few thousand regulations without being able to be part of the decision-making process.

Which is why the entire thing is looking increasingly silly. A soft Brexit makes a lot of things the Leavers wanted pretty much null and void by default; it means that there would still be free movement of labor, that certain immigration controls would still be out of UK control (and France actually has the UK by the balls in that area due to a particular arrangement that allows the UK to have border controls on the continent), it would mean *less* sovereignty due to no longer having a direct input on much EU legislation, and it would mean still having to make hefty donations to the EU.

On the other hand, it's still a lot better than crashing and burning by leaving the EU altogether, which would be much messier and likely to fuck the UK economy over. That would allow the UK to theoretically become Fortress UK and bar access to unwanted immigrants and fun stuff like that. But then there would still be people from the Commonwealth and stuff. It just doesn't seem like there's a lot to really earn for the UK in this scenario, but a lot to lose. The Leave campaigners were very Trumpian both in terms of what they promised and remain so in terms of what they're able to actually deliver.

MTL76

  • ********
  • 9416
  • +1111/-11
  • "What if I know all your secrets, Your Eminence?"
    • View Profile
Re: The Brexit Thread
« Reply #295 on: June 14, 2017, 06:12:27 PM »
Who's to say that a Hard Brexit will be a crash and burn?

But I agree that a Soft Brexit is silly, for the reasons you mentioned. You might as well stay inside the EU. It seems like a pointless way to satisfy the results of the Brexit vote by the letter of the law, while not actually accomplishing anything that the Remainers actually wanted.


Minority Shareholder, Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles (CHOAM)

The Create A Team / Power Set Combo Compendium

superlurker

  • **
  • 458
  • +10/-0
    • View Profile
Re: The Brexit Thread
« Reply #296 on: June 15, 2017, 05:23:29 AM »
Who's to say that a Hard Brexit will be a crash and burn?

Because it's potentially hugely disruptive to the British economy. It depends a lot on the exact details of the scenario, but the likelihood of some minor disaster is much greater when you rock the boat more. In particular, the UK might see some of its services industry in finance move parts of its activity to the continent in order to stay inside the EU.

Quote
But I agree that a Soft Brexit is silly, for the reasons you mentioned. You might as well stay inside the EU. It seems like a pointless way to satisfy the results of the Brexit vote by the letter of the law, while not actually accomplishing anything that the Remainers actually wanted.

A lot of what the Leavers (I assume you meant) argued they'd get out of leaving the EU was pretty unrealistic to begin with. It won't rain money on the hospitals, and it's also possible the UK would see a lot more refugees coming in, for example.

The Shuruku Demon

  • *****
  • 1972
  • +15/-5
    • View Profile
Re: The Brexit Thread
« Reply #297 on: June 15, 2017, 10:36:00 AM »
But I agree that a Soft Brexit is silly, for the reasons you mentioned. You might as well stay inside the EU. It seems like a pointless way to satisfy the results of the Brexit vote by the letter of the law, while not actually accomplishing anything that the Remainers actually wanted.

That's precisely what it is*, and the politicians pushing for it are being very disingenuous IMO. I say that as a Remainer who'd prefer the UK stays in the EU and helps to reform it from within. But if we're coming out, we might as well come out properly and reap the consequences, for good or for ill.

(*Edit: You obviously meant Leavers rather than Remainers in the quote I was responding to.)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 10:48:46 AM by The Shuruku Demon »