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Messages - The Shuruku Demon

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1
ICT / Re: Spider-man vs. Firelord (ASM 269-270) gets Punchometered
« on: February 23, 2018, 04:55:20 PM »
I had a look at the Marvel Database and it does indeed list Spider-man at 25 Tons now.

I'm not sure if that's right. He was officially 20 tons level at the time of Civil War, due to a couple of power-ups he received in preceding years, but those were seemingly reversed after One More Day. Up until recently, he was wearing a strength-enhancing costume, so perhaps the 25 ton figure was an estimate of his strength in that. But in his regular spandex suit, I think he's back to the 10 tons level on a day to day basis, with the ability to rise above that when sufficiently boosted by adrenaline or whatnot. That's how DeFalco appeared to see it, going by what was written in SPIDER-MAN: THE ULTIMATE GUIDE (he cited the 10 tons rating himself).

2
ICT / Re: Spider-man vs. Firelord (ASM 269-270) gets Punchometered
« on: February 23, 2018, 04:38:50 PM »
I don't see any indication in those Webspinners scenes that the Sonic Shark still contained all the energy it originally drained from the Surfer, or that the Surfer gained any significant boost when he drained it. If anything, he probably should've been more powerful than ever if the energy he drained from the Shark was equal to what had been drained from him in FF #72, since he'd almost certainly recovered somewhat between those two issues.

Surfer recognized the sonic shark and Dum Dum Dugan said it was the same sonic shark that drained him.

That's not in dispute, but you haven't shown any evidence that the Sonic Shark still had all the energy it drained from the Surfer in FF #72.

Surfer didn't gain any power in between the first series. It was mentioned in letter pages too.

But one of the initial references you posted was an OHOTMU bio saying the Surfer regained his power "gradually".

This was sort of a retcon for how Surfer never appeared lesser powerful after first series. In SS v1 Loki flat out says that Surfer is no match for Thor. But later in Thor 193-194, he successfully revives Thor and defeats Durok when Thor couldn't.

Later writer after SS v1 never mentioned that Surfer was Depowered and this was the retcon to connect it.

You're telling me that, but the scans you posted don't suggest the Surfer was significantly powered up by the rematch with the Sonic Shark. And if he hadn't regained any power in-between FF #72 and that issue, it should've been a big power-up, since he said he was "almost totally drained" immediately after it happened, and said he was at a "fraction" of his previous power shortly after that.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Fantastic-Four-1961/Issue-72?id=27168#21
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Fantastic-Four-1961/Issue-74?id=27170#7

The Webspinners story also acknowledges that he was "almost totally drained" by the Sonic Shark.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Webspinners-Tales-of-Spider-Man/Issue-5?id=73831#17

So how does he go from almost totally drained to full power, with no noticeable difference in his performance level shortly before and after that scene?

It's not the sort of thing that's relevant to bring up in most storylines. All the same, it makes total sense that the Surfer and Superman wouldn't absorb as much solar energy on Earth as in space, due to the Earth's atmosphere.

Maybe. But unless these type of things are mentioned, they are irrelevant for most stories.

Maybe, maybe not. Even if it only applied to Englehart, it's still significant since he wrote quite a few of the Surfer's appearances around that time.

It wasn't necessary to post those OHOTMU scans at all. A simple quote would've sufficed.

I disagree.

It doesn't matter whether you agree or not. The bottom line is that posting those links was against the rules, and if you want to keep posting here, you need to respect the rules.

3
ICT / Re: Spider-man vs. Firelord (ASM 269-270) gets Punchometered
« on: February 23, 2018, 11:47:41 AM »
I'm sure he gradually regained power while on Earth, but given that he was "almost totally drained" by the Sonic Shark, that suggests he remained below full power for some time during the '70s. This is supported by the second issue of his original series, where he says that while once he might have felled the Badoon monster with a shrug, now he was less than before.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Silver-Surfer-1968/Issue-2?id=44912#43


Actually it was stated several times in his first series but after the series ended there was no mention of this. It was partially retconned as Surfer reabsorbing the stolen power from the sonic shark.

Quote from: 14625596
Originally posted by abhilegend


But according to that scan surfer was almost powerless after Sonic Shark drained him, here surfer may or may not allude to the same scene.

http://i.imgur.com/1U7f4b3.jpg

But how then he later appeared as powerful as ever? It was retconned years later in Webspinners: Tales of Spider-Man 5 that surfer was attacked again by the same sonic shark device again which had drained his powers before and this time he absorbed all its power which would include the stolen power from surfer.



It happened just after SS 18 when surfer fought inhumans BTW.



Here is the confirmation that this is the same Sonic Shark which was used on surfer back in FF 72.



That's the official retcon of the event AFAIK and Surfer was never depowered after SS 18 and the next he appeared.

I don't see any indication in those Webspinners scenes that the Sonic Shark still contained all the energy it originally drained from the Surfer, or that the Surfer gained any significant boost when he drained it. If anything, he probably should've been more powerful than ever if the energy he drained from the Shark was equal to what had been drained from him in FF #72, since he'd almost certainly recovered somewhat between those two issues.

As for the statement in SS v3 #1, that seems to suggest he's generally less powerful on Earth in space than in space. I'd guess by that point though, he was back to being as powerful as he normally would be on Earth.

I think Englehart was trying to reconcile some low showing Surfer had on earth with his higher showings but it was never mentioned again.

It's not the sort of thing that's relevant to bring up in most storylines. All the same, it makes total sense that the Surfer and Superman wouldn't absorb as much solar energy on Earth as in space, due to the Earth's atmosphere.

Incidentally, you should stop posting turboimagehost links here. It's against the forum rules.

I'm on mobile so can't upload the new scans. These are already posted here.

It wasn't necessary to post those OHOTMU scans at all. A simple quote would've sufficed.

4
Marvel Zombies / Re: Waid says no such thing as magic...
« on: February 23, 2018, 10:42:24 AM »
I took this as a nod to Clarke's third law that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinquishable from magic. I don't know if Waid quite came out and said that directly, but the explanation of how Mjolnir's enchantment worked seemed to be hinting at that. And of course, we're currently seeing an interpretation of Asgardians in the MCU which seem quite clearly science rather than magic-based.

The magic/science issue aside, I don't like the gravitons mechanic as an explanation for why unworthy folks can't lift Mjolnir, because it gets wonky when you apply it to beings with planet-moving strength. What happens when Waid's Earth-benching version of Superman tries to lift Mjolnir (assuming he's unworthy, for the sake of argument)? Does Mjolnir increase it's gravitational pull beyond that of the Earth's in order to resist being lifted? And is there a limit to the gravitational pull Mjolnir can emit? What happens if an unworthy being strong enough to move a black hole tries to lift it?

If you wanted to explain the enchantment in psuedoscientific terms, there are alternative theories you could come up with that don't have these kind of problems (like the hammer selectively redirecting kinetic energy applied to it).

5
ICT / Re: Spider-man vs. Firelord (ASM 269-270) gets Punchometered
« on: February 23, 2018, 10:17:59 AM »
Surfer regained his powers drained by sonic shark off panel as per his bio.

"His powers were diminished though they gradually returned to their original levels."

He wasn't depowered in SS v3 1. He just had to get above ozone layer to absorb cosmic rays.

I'm sure he gradually regained power while on Earth, but given that he was "almost totally drained" by the Sonic Shark, that suggests he remained below full power for some time during the '70s. This is supported by the second issue of his original series, where he says that while once he might have felled the Badoon monster with a shrug, now he was less than before.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Silver-Surfer-1968/Issue-2?id=44912#43

As for the statement in SS v3 #1, that seems to suggest he's generally less powerful on Earth than in space. I'd guess by that point though, he was back to being as powerful as he normally would be on Earth.

Incidentally, you should stop posting turboimagehost links here. It's against the forum rules.

6
ICT / Re: Spider-man vs. Firelord (ASM 269-270) gets Punchometered
« on: February 23, 2018, 10:13:28 AM »
Not saying it's unique to Spidey, but I don't think it's standard fare for Spidey either. I think it was meant to explain why Spidey has those occasional showings where his strength seems much higher than on average (his victory over Firelord being one of the foremost examples).

I read an interview/story with Shooter (I think) who noted that Spidey was only meant to be able to Lift 2-3 Tons and the 10 ton example (from the Master Planner story) was an outlier that somehow became his default average.

Busiek's said the same thing, and they're likely right, but it's academic at this point. Since the 1990s, Spidey's high end showings have been more in the 30-50 ton region than the 10 ton mark.

To me the thing just seems like the 'dig deep' trope, though Spidey does have several examples but then he does probably have more showings than any other Marvel character.

The point isn't whether this was anything unique to Spidey. The point is that when he digs deep, as you put it, he rises above his normal Class 10 classification.

I don't think there's any automatic reduction in power as a result of becoming a former Herald; it depends on whether Galactus chooses to remove any power or not. In the Surfer's case, the Surfer had stood against him, so Galactus punished him by removing his time/space powers, and creating a barrier to keep him trapped on Earth.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Fantastic-Four-1961/Issue-50?id=27144#10

Didn't Surfer gain (regain?) a power boost when he once again becomes Galactus' herald during Annihilation to battle Aegis & Tenebrous?

The dialogue in that scene does suggest that Galactus was restoring power he'd previously taken away in anger. As we know though, he explicitly took some of the Surfer's power in the older story, which didn't happen with Firelord.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Annihilation-Silver-Surfer/Issue-3?id=39421#16

Firelord was freed from his role on friendlier terms though, and didn't obviously pay any price for it.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Thor-1966/Issue-228?id=7810#16

Interesting. I'll have to look over some of the Thor vs. Firelord tussles and see if they hold up under Class 50 Scrutiny.

I agree with you Class 50 seems very weak for him.

Firelord was only a Herald in his very first arc. He had another three or four fights with Thor after that, and looked closer to him physically than I'd expect Rogue (also rated at 50 tons level) to on average.

As a sidenote, the Surfer was apparently further weakened during his solo series in the '70s, as a result of having had some of his power drained away by human tech in an FF issue published a few months before the start of that series.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Fantastic-Four-1961/Issue-72?id=27168#20

And in the first issue of the Surfer's later series in the '80s, it was stated that the Earth's ozone layer blocked some of the cosmic rays he'd normally have absorbed in space.)
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Silver-Surfer-1987/Issue-1?id=11559#11

The Current Herald always seems like more of a big deal but then that could just be subsequent villain decay making them appear less of a threat when they relinquish the position.

Right. It's a conceit of the way comics are written that a brand new character often gets a big push initially, but then seems a bit less impressive if they stick around on an ongoing basis. The same thing is common in wrestling.

So Outer Space is to Surfer as Sunlight is to Superman.

The Surfer draws power from the stars as Superman does, and Superman himself has also been indicated to be more powerful beyond Earth's atmosphere than within it.

Presumably extreme use of power (extraneous energy blasts?) weakens him to some extent...?

Potentially, especially if he's not at his best to begin with. We saw this early on in his original series, where he likely still hadn't fully recovered from having much of his power drained by the Sonic Shark.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Silver-Surfer-1968/Issue-2?id=44912#40

7
ICT / Re: Jason Bourne vs. Jaws (the Bond villain)
« on: February 23, 2018, 05:06:42 AM »
I will say though that although I don't see Bourne putting Jaws down with standard strikes (even using household items as clubbing weapons), the eyes are a potential weak spot he could go for. He could jam a pen in one or both of them, or spray them with an aerosol can. And he could follow that up combining an aerosol can with a lighter to set Jaws on fire, or grabbing a kitchen knife to start carving Jaws up. If he could weaken Jaws sufficiently, he might even be able to hop on his back and apply some variation of a rear naked choke, or just slit his throat. So there are ways Bourne could win, even in this setting, although he'd have to go beyond the repertoire of moves he's used against previous opponents.

8
ICT / Re: Spider-man vs. Firelord (ASM 269-270) gets Punchometered
« on: February 22, 2018, 02:25:00 PM »
For what it's worth though, in SPIDER-MAN: THE ULTIMATE GUIDE (also written by DeFalco), it's stated that just as a normal person can perform feats of strength they wouldn't normally be capable of in times of stress -- he gives a person lifting a car as an example, which I'm guessing is a nod to what David Banner said in the Incredible Hulk TV pilot episode -- the same is true of Spider-Man. And DeFalco specifically cites Spidey flattening a "cosmically powered alien" as one of the showings where this applied.

I don't doubt any of that BUT heroes should generally be under stress and acting AGAINST the odds. That's what makes them heroes, so its more of a universal conceit than specific to Spidey.

Not saying it's unique to Spidey, but I don't think it's standard fare for Spidey either. I think it was meant to explain why Spidey has those occasional showings where his strength seems much higher than on average (his victory over Firelord being one of the foremost examples).

As a final point, I think Firelord's OHOTMU rating of Class 50 was probably a bit low. It's possible DeFalco was influenced by that rating, but I'd say Class 75 or higher would be more in line with Firelord's HtH showings in general.

I'd agree with you here. I have always wondered if being the CURRENT Herald of Galactus was better than being an ex-Herald...?

As in Class 75 when he is the current Herald but a slight degrade (in this case Class 50) when he isn't but he still keeps MOST of his power (cosmic).

I don't think there's any automatic reduction in power as a result of becoming a former Herald; it depends on whether Galactus chooses to remove any power or not. In the Surfer's case, the Surfer had stood against him, so Galactus punished him by removing his time/space powers, and creating a barrier to keep him trapped on Earth.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Fantastic-Four-1961/Issue-50?id=27144#10

Firelord was freed from his role on friendlier terms though, and didn't obviously pay any price for it.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Thor-1966/Issue-228?id=7810#16

As a sidenote, the Surfer was apparently further weakened during his solo series in the '70s, as a result of having had some of his power drained away by human tech in an FF issue published a few months before the start of that series.
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Fantastic-Four-1961/Issue-72?id=27168#20

And in the first issue of the Surfer's later series in the '80s, it was stated that the Earth's ozone layer blocked some of the cosmic rays he'd normally have absorbed in space.)
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Silver-Surfer-1987/Issue-1?id=11559#11

9
ICT / Re: Jason Bourne vs. Jaws (the Bond villain)
« on: February 22, 2018, 12:16:33 PM »
Well, Bourne was moving around just fine in his movie's apartment fight, as he's a normal sized guy.
Jaws, like many gigantors past and present, is just too large to not have to move carefully in an apartment, much less at speed.
At least thsts my take.

Bourne would have no problem moving around in that apartment normally, but it'd be hard to avoid someone the size of Jaws for long in that space. I don't think Jaws would have much trouble moving around either; he fought Bond in a train carriage and even managed to hide in the wardrobe, somehow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CogCFACcNPc

Having mulled it over, I reckon this environment favours Jaws more than Bourne. As good as Bourne is with household items, he'd be hard-pressed to put Jaws down with anything in that apartment, aside from stabbing implements. Jaw's durability against blunt force trauma was very high; punches and kicks had little or no effect, and even kneeing him in the nuts or smashing bottles or tables over him barely gave him pause. Heck, the guy had a ton or more of rubble fall on him, and was back in action, tearing strips off a van, just minutes later.

I suppose there's an outside chance that Bourne could reproduce Bond's feat of electrocuting Jaws' teeth and kicking him out the window, but that aside, I reckon Jaws would absorb everything Bourne could throw at him, and eventually grab him and break his neck or bite a chunk out of it.

Incidentally, the reason I picked this location as the battlefield is because this was the sort of environment Bourne typically had his big HtH fights in. Bourne doesn't have as much to work with here as Bond usually had against Jaws, but it is as much to work with as he was used to.

10
ICT / Re: Spider-man vs. Firelord (ASM 269-270) gets Punchometered
« on: February 22, 2018, 11:42:00 AM »
Spidey wasn't wearing the symbiote when he fought Firelord. He got shot of that in ASM #258.

For what it's worth though, in SPIDER-MAN: THE ULTIMATE GUIDE (also written by DeFalco), it's stated that just as a normal person can perform feats of strength they wouldn't normally be capable of in times of stress -- he gives a person lifting a car as an example, which I'm guessing is a nod to what David Banner said in the Incredible Hulk TV pilot episode -- the same is true of Spider-Man. And DeFalco specifically cites Spidey flattening a "cosmically powered alien" as one of the showings where this applied.





As a final point, I think Firelord's OHOTMU rating of Class 50 was probably a bit low. It's possible DeFalco was influenced by that rating, but I'd say Class 75 or higher would be more in line with Firelord's HtH showings in general.

11
ICT / Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer vs. Max (Dark Angel)
« on: February 21, 2018, 11:50:34 AM »
I rewatched some of the early episodes of Dark Angel, and came to the conclusion that Max isn't actually superhuman in strength by comicbook standards. She could lift people up with one hand and throw men through the air, but that's the kind of thing characters like Daredevil and Punisher are capable of.

She could jump out of third or fourth storey windows and land on her feet just fine though, and she's definitely superhuman in speed, faster than I recall Buffy being, and arguably better trained than Buffy too. But Buffy may have quite a substantial strength edge going by some of the feats I've seen listed for her (apparently putting her at one ton level, or possibly higher).

So overall, I think it'd be a decent fight, but I'm leaning toward Buffy.

12
ICT / Re: Jason Bourne vs. Jaws (the Bond villain)
« on: February 21, 2018, 10:29:44 AM »
I don't think Jaws was quite on the TV Hulk's level, but he did have some pretty crazy feats, like surviving a fall from a plane into a circus big top, or holding a van in place with it's wheels spinning, and lifting up one end of it. And no, Bond never beat him in straight HtH, although he did usually find some way to get the better of Jaws using the environment.

13
ICT / Re: Jason Bourne vs. Jaws (the Bond villain)
« on: February 21, 2018, 09:32:43 AM »
I was thinking that both benefit from the environment to some extent. The relatively cramped conditions suit Jaws, since it gives Bourne less room to avoid him. But then Bourne gets access to books, towels, and other such household items he's so lethal with.

14
ICT / Jason Bourne vs. Jaws (the Bond villain)
« on: February 21, 2018, 08:56:19 AM »
VS.


• Matt Damon's Jason Bourne takes on Richard Kiel's Jaws.

• Fight takes place in the apartment where Bourne fought Desh in The Bourne Ultimatum.

• Neither combatant is armed, but they can make use of anything in their surroundings, at their discretion.

15
ICT / Re: King Thanos vs Superman
« on: February 12, 2018, 06:25:01 PM »
I think you misunderstood the analogy. I proposed what would apply if you could magically split a solar panel into two equally large panels. "Equally large" meaning, equal in size to the original, that is. Superman wasn't split into two half-sized Supermen, was he?

Sure that will work. Same panel size but half the silicon crystals content for both enlarged panels.

It's not a given that the stored power content within the two Supermen would be half that of the original though. I mean, they didn't have half the size or mass, did they? If not, then there was obviously some element of duplication going on, rather than straightforward division. Superman wasn't sliced down the middle like an apple.

Even if we assume that the initial power level of the two Superman was half that of the original, that's the sort of thing that could be easily brushed aside in a very short space of time, based on how Superman's powers have been written in practice. If we take the SUPERMAN VS. ALIENS crossover for example, which was acknowledged in one of his mainstream books, Superman's power level was reduced to 20% of normal at one point, due to travelling to a region of space far from any yellow stars. Did that result in a long term reduction in Superman's power level? No. Once exposed to Earth's Sun again, he was apparently able to recoup that lost power in next to no time.

Anyway, writing Superman 2x powerful compared to his nu52 self makes for almost no story to write. It's like having a Zeus series that ends in 6 issues or less else, he would have no challengers. So writers must write Superman based on existing paradigms to give him a story and challenge.

Which is the main point really. We can argue technical points over whether Superman should or should not be more powerful than before after having his two halves reunited, but in practice, writers are unlikely to follow through with the logic of that if it means making him twice as strong as before as a long term thing. That's not to say there won't be any power creep at all, but if writers want to scale up Superman's power, they'll do it regardless of whether or not there's any in-story explanation for that. And the reverse is true as well.

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